Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 32

Thread: Alright, about the Mongol Heavy Cavalry

  1. #1
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Here's the thing, and i'm not trying to flame, but i simply do not understand why people are whining about MHC. For the same amount of koku (600, H2) you can get 2 units of H3 yari samurai, which is an effective and reliable counter almost every time. And all this is assuming that it's a fine day... in any adverse weather conditions, those MHC are at an even greater disadvantage.

    Yes, one on one, MHC beats JHC. But a true general would exploit the enemy's weakness, which is to say that 2 units against 1 has more advantage besides the numbers. You get that other unit to flank and it's lights out. Even head on, the samurai still beat MHC hands down. It seems very simple to me; counter the MHC with spears, just as you would counter archers with cavalry.

    Frankly, i have to state my opinion:
    With games such as these, there's always whining when new units are introduced, simply because people aren't completely familiar with their strengths and weaknesses.

    Any fresh thoughts on this?

    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  2. #2

    Default

    The problems everyone from the rising to setting sun had with the Mongols was speed and flexibility. This seems to be reflected well in the game. The MHC is impressive, but only in MP where a koku adjustment could be effected if needed. More than likely any Mongol players had just better accept the onus of being the attacker except in special cases. Spears do kill both MHC and MLC, with the only problem being that MLC can shoot the crap out of spear units first. So now you bring bows. I don't have any input on the MCav vs JCav subject, my defender campaign is still at the point where I am holding provinces and my few cav units are just there to make short charges to cover my xbows.

    One problem I see with the game that is very ahistorical is the cav running through woods, especially the larger ones. Unless Japanese woods of either period are particularly landscaped, then a cav unit should take casualties from doing anything other than a walk through woods. Underbrush, snags, holes, etc. will break legs and otherwise lame horses, which in game terms, kills the rider. If we didn't have this little problem then the map edge wouldn't be the only place to secure yourself in a fight.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Dark Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    2,749

    Default

    Well Cav got penalties in the original Shogun for going thru the trees, I do not know if this has changed for MI but I see no reason for this to have changed.

    ------------------
    DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

    I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p
    DP is correct - Shiro

  4. #4
    Gifted Dilettante Member DragonCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Norwalk, CT, USA
    Posts
    383

    Default

    In a low koku battle online, the Japanese have an advantage- especially if you can barely afford 16 units. In a high koku game, since there is a 16 unit limit, the Mongols have an advantage. At least this is my experience.

    They are fast, flexible and fun to play though. Especially if you are a fan of cavalry charges like I am.

    ------------------
    DragonCat
    "On the prowl . . . ."
    DragonCat
    . . . on the prowl!

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Dark Phoenix:
    Well Cav got penalties in the original Shogun for going thru the trees, I do not know if this has changed for MI but I see no reason for this to have changed.

    [/QUOTE]

    AFAIK, they still get penalties in the woods vs infantry. At least the Mongols do since I always end my defense hiding in the woods and I beat the crap out of the MLC, even with SA.

    The problem is that other than the defender setting up where his cav can charge out of concealment (they look the ground over before the battle) anything that gives a unit concealment should knock a cav unit down to at least a walk.


  6. #6
    Member Member KumaRatta Yamamoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Algesan try Nagi Cav to stop the MLC, it seems that it works
    KumaRatta Yamamoto Sonkei soshite yuki Ratta Ichizoku. Come and visit us : www.rattaclan.homestead.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    1,906

    Default

    I totally agree Lord Aeon.

    Same cost Yari Samurai always beat MHC in detail yet people say MHC can't be stopped.

    Btw i do have the xpac so im not making an uniformed comment

    Rath...

  8. #8

    Default

    your statement lord...

    "I think that too much is being made of this whole MHC thing. So much so that i think i'll make a new thread about it."

    i know the mhc can be beat and even perhaps the armies are balanced, but the UNITS to each other AINT. MHC kills every jcav with ease even at an higher costs. i wont advise to make the jcav more expensive, just make them less strong and keep seeing the things in each others perspective.
    quote:I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by KumaRatta Yamamoto:
    Algesan try Nagi Cav to stop the MLC, it seems that it works[/QUOTE]

    Yep, that works, my problem is that I'm working a campaign and my newly made cav is still working its way to the fight. Right now I just have mostly infantry on hand.


  10. #10
    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    All land from sunrise to sunset
    Posts
    1,855

    Default

    btw there is a limit to 16 units so buying 2 spears for 1 cav aint the solution. and 16 spears against 16 cav is stupid as well. the game should be challenging where each unit has his purpose but aint dominating the game.

    mhcav decimating jhcav must sustain AT least 50-75% of casualties on their own side. now it is perhaps 10-30%. that is stupid.

    same with horsearchers...
    Clan Wolves: 10 years in Total War
    visit us at wolves.magyarkhan.org
    and youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ClanWolves
    and watch a Creative Assembly employee struggle in battle....

  11. #11
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
    i know the mhc can be beat and even perhaps the armies are balanced, but the UNITS to each other AINT. MHC kills every jcav with ease even at an higher costs. i wont advise to make the jcav more expensive, just make them less strong and keep seeing the things in each others perspective.[/QUOTE]

    I assume you're talking about downgrading the MHC... but i submit that that as long as the armies can be balanced as a whole, that there's no need to make a unit to unit balance. Furthermore, from an historial-accuracy perspective, i think more people would be complaining if the MHC was easily countered by JHC. Like i said, they were the most devastating military unit of the period.

    To be a bit redundant, i simply don't see a *need* to have unit to unit balance. If that was the case, there would be very little point in adding ne units to the game because they would be basically the same.


    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  12. #12
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Magyar Khan:
    btw there is a limit to 16 units so buying 2 spears for 1 cav aint the solution. and 16 spears against 16 cav is stupid as well. the game should be challenging where each unit has his purpose but aint dominating the game. [/QUOTE]

    I think you might be missing a small bit of information:
    H2 MHC cost 600 koku.
    For LESS koku, you can get H5 YS, or H3 A3 W3 yaris, which, one on one, will decimate H2 MHC. I don't think MHC dominate the game in any real way. They are the toughest unit out there, but i think that it should be so.


    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

    [This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-15-2001).]
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  13. #13
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Let me also just add this: There could never be unit-to-unit balance where army-to-army balance is maintained. This is simply because Japanese have more unit types to choose from. If the Mongol units were perfectly matched with corresponding Japanese troops, the Japanese would then have a great advantage by virtue of simply having more a more versatile army.

    Not to mention that the SP campaign would then become ridiculously easy, since Japanese have the terrain to their advantage (as they are defending most of the time).

    On a tangent: I don't get why the flaming arrows thing couldn't have been done; if have thunderbombers, surely we could put a little flame on the arrows?

    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  14. #14

    Default

    Online, against players of approx equal strength in 1v1 at 5000 koku and 60 man unit size on Totomi, the results are consistently around 900 kills for the Mongols and 600 kills for the Japanese. It doesn't matter which side I play. That how it's been working out.


    Lord Aeon,

    MHC not only beats JHC one-on-one by 60 kills to 5 losses, but they can also beat 3 JHC and still have more than half their number left. I don't think I'm whining. I'm reporting my findings as they apply to online play. I haven't tried the single player campaign yet. Overall, I would say the online play is excellent.

    The regular Sengoku period game is available online so you're not forced to play against the Mongols. In an online campaign that includes Mongols, then play balance is a big concern.

    MizuYuuki ~~~
    Clan Takiyama ~~~

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  15. #15
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Puzz, what i'm trying to say that just because you haven't yet EXPERIENCED a Japanese victory against the Mongols in less than a week of online play does not mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE. Again, it seems to me that countering MHC with JHC is not prudent.

    This is obvious.

    But they CAN be countered by choosing the right units. And since Japanese have so many untis to choose from, why not simply try a different mix of units? Don't keep taking JHC EVERY TIME if you're still losing. That makes little sense to me.

    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Dark Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    2,749

    Default

    Well JHC have always needed to be stronger. I dont think I have ever used them online looks like that is continuing. I have played Puzz3d many times and know that he is a good player so if 3 units of JHC are being beaten against 1 MHC unit then I dont think it can be done.

    ------------------
    DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

    I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p
    DP is correct - Shiro

  17. #17
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    LOL, i wasn't trying to imply that Puzz himself wasn't a good player. All i was trying to say is that, since it is obvious that JHC cannot take on MHC, that maybe JHC shouldn't be used to counter them if you see that your opponent is taking loads of MHC to the battlefield.

    I think that every unit has a weakness... the weakness of MHC is that they don't do very well against spears. All the Mongol units are tough, no doubt; but i think they have to be to compete against Japanese armies. Besides, i don't think it's the case that NO ONE has won as Japanese vs. Mongols.

    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  18. #18
    Gifted Dilettante Member DragonCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Norwalk, CT, USA
    Posts
    383

    Default

    As Maggy and I have both pointed out, the problem, esp online, is this: There are only 16 units.

    So if there is enough koku for me to by 16 mhc- then you can only buy 16ys to counter them. My flexibility and speed will let me win, even though the honor on your units is higher. (Actually I would never take an army of all MHC unless it was Maggy and me in a cavalry duel. I WANT to have some of the other units -those skirmisher spears are fierce!)

    To counter Puzz3d's experience, I have managed to lose as the Mongols several times. AmpMortag knows how to beat them. So do I. Work it out.

    ------------------
    DragonCat
    "On the prowl . . . ."
    DragonCat
    . . . on the prowl!

  19. #19
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    YS isn't the only unit that can counter MHC either. It has been stated that Naginata Cavalry can perform against them... i'm sure that there are other units that can as well.

    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  20. #20

    Default

    Sorry, I confused two issues. I didn't take any JHC in my online battles. Last time I took 7 YS, 6 SA, 2 ND and 1 NC. Previous armies I took were a little different.

    You're right, not a whole lot of experience yet with the new game, but a lot of experience with the old game. I have been trying to fight toe-to-toe the way I do in the old game. I did defeat the Mongols on Totomi at 6000 koku against Kraellin, but he will admit that I usually can beat him in a regular game.

    Here is something that will definitely work vs the Mongols: take 16 YS and camp in some trees. You might want to substitute 2 or 3 no-dachi to take on any Korean infantry that tries to get at you. I haven't tried any rush tactics with the Japanese army. You can probably blow away the Korean infantry with a rush, but you can't catch the Mongol cav.

    The relative strength comments about the MHC vs the JHC came out of some testing I did on my LAN, and in custom battle. The MHC should be better than the JHC, but they are "way better". The game may very well have been optimized for the single player campaign now that I see comments about that being posted. The online game probably just falls out of the campaign without any other adjustments to the units. I've already established that the strength of the MHC is not coming from it's charge bonus being constantly applied. It would appear that the MHC is fighting as intended by the programmers. So far, my best estimate is that the MHC fights like it's an 8/8 (attack/defense). At that power it should cost 1200 koku in the online game, and that's without considering it's high speed.

    The issue with YS killing cav so easily has always been there. Many people have commented that the YS seems too effective against cav. If Mongol cav were weakend some, then YS advantage vs cav could be lowered as well to maintain the balance. I'm sure balancing all these different units is not an easy task.

    MizuYuuki ~~~
    Clan Takiyama ~~~



    [This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-15-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-16-2001).]

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  21. #21
    Member Member TakeshidaSo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    FortWorth, Texas,U.S.A.
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Arent MHC armed with Lances, and so gain a spear bonus against Jap cavalry? I thought that was the case. I'm not surprised that extra-heavy Lancers can easily defeat heavy cavalry armed with 'other cavalry weapons', especially when you add a morale advantage to the extra-heavy Lance armed unit. It is too early to declare the Mongol army invincible, even though I cant do anything personally to dispel that theory, at the present. Other than to say that the term 'cavalry terrain' may now be a more commonly used phrase.

  22. #22
    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    All land from sunrise to sunset
    Posts
    1,855

    Default

    look it is ok that spears beat cav but if 2-3 hcav charges into spears from all sides they should break and for now in the game we have almost no unit will break.

    i agree in the old game units fled a little bit to easy but now it is total opposite. it has to be somewhere in between i think and more to the side of the old game than the way it is done now.
    ----------------------
    possible solution for discussion now
    -----------------------
    downgrade the mcav and mlcav slightly and make them more expensive, mhcav for example 800 koku. 1200 is way too much. and make units easier rout so even trapped spears will break or an surrounded mhcav...
    Clan Wolves: 10 years in Total War
    visit us at wolves.magyarkhan.org
    and youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ClanWolves
    and watch a Creative Assembly employee struggle in battle....

  23. #23

    Default

    On the rout issue, units do stick it out too long, at least the base units do. High honor ones can and should, that is what veterans are for. Pretty much any base (honor 0 in campaign) peasant unit should break if caught in the flank or rear while already engaged. Samurai should last a bit longer, but as to the particulars, I don't know the details of the era well enough to know how much of a problem this was. Other factors also should apply - taisho honor, closeness of supporting units, other units fighting nearby plus the infamous random roll. If a commander hangs a vulnerable unit out there to die, well...

  24. #24
    Member Member TakeshidaSo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    FortWorth, Texas,U.S.A.
    Posts
    634

    Default

    I would suggest MHC have better weapon and better morale than JHC, so 750 koku. I used 12.5% increased cost for each as a loose guideline. I think we need to come up with a community consensus regarding Mongol unit costs thru playtesting, and\or reasoned analysis, because there is every likelihood that this consensus will be accepted. I would try to assist with my opinion of other Mongol unit costs, but I dont even have a cracked copy at this time.

  25. #25

    Default

    Having played a bit on both sides of the coin now, I feel more confident on putting out a viewpoint. MHC are powerful - but NOT invincible. In fact, while they have great striking power and speed, their lack of ability in uneven terrain is the balance. Above I read that taking 16 Yari Samurai against 16 Mongol Heavy Cav is "stupid". Well I am forced to disagree. The difference in cost allows the japanese to add additional tweaks to their troops that the mongol's could not afford. That is assuming a reasonable amount of Koku is available. Too large of an amount will make the balance moot. Also - given that in the campaign the mongols cannot add armor/weapon upgrades - the balance is dependant on that. In Multiplayer - a mongol player should respect that and avoid armor/weapon tweaks - spending only on honor increases.

    As for the 16YS vs 16 MHC question - if you attempt to manuever and fight the horde you WILL lose - thats why everyone DID lose to them. If you think defensively and SIT - specifically in woods near the top of a hill, and run a single unit out as "bait", then duck them back into the woods as the MHC charge - you will find that YS are more than a match for MHC - especially with armor and weapon upgrades.

    One last note - a Kensai SwordSaint can also stand against a Mongol Heavy Cav unit. Since they are the same price as a MHC - one could just grap 16 of them and cease to worry. Or use naginata cavalry - they also can work wonders on MHC. I have not seen what Battlefield Ninja will do yet... time will tell.

    BSM_Skkzarg
    "A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
    BSM_Skkzarg
    "ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
    "ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

  26. #26

    Default

    BSM did u really lose with 16 spears againt 16 mhcav

    i tried several games but the spears won... since the units hold till teh last men flanking and rearing is less important..

    TAKE can u email me? looking at your writings it seems ur applying for a little job where i think we need you...

    ------------------
    Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]
    quote:I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well

  27. #27
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA, USA.
    Posts
    2,596

    Default

    Yeah, but Aeon, it would be nice if the armies of each side had a fair balance all across the koku scale, whether you were playing 500 koku or 10,000. It IS imbalanced if someone playing at 7000 koku as Mongols can more or less expect a win, and someone who wants to win with Japanese has to play a low koku game. *Most* players tend to either make games with enough koku or stretch honor enough to have full 16-unit armies. You can only bring so many yari sam, and if you need 2 yari sam for each mongol heavy cav, and the mongol guy has a full 16 units, then he's doing the same work you are with half the units (for the cav part of his army, anyway).
    So in a game where he has 4 mongol heavy cav and you have 8 yari sam as a counter, and you both have 16 unit armies, you will lose to a competent player. Isn't that correct? They'll have 12 free units to your 8.




    ------------------
    Koga no Goshi

    "Nandai"
    Since time began
    the dead alone know peace.
    Life is but melting snow.
    Koga no Goshi

    I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.

  28. #28
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Right. But people keep glossing over the fact that ONE (1) unit of Yari Samurai with Honor 3, Armor 3, and Weapon 3, or even YS with H5 cost LESS money than H2 Mongol heavy cavalry and still do very well against them.

    ------------------
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
    "You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

  29. #29
    Member Member BakaGaijin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,739

    Default

    Koga: But then there's the fact that the Mongols don't have very good choices for non-mounted shock troops. The Thunderbombers and Skirmishers do VERY good damage, but they also die very quickly and expend their ammo even quicker than that. Once those two units are gone, the other Koreans are a very easy match for Japanese Yari, nevermind the Nodachi or Monks you should bring. You could fill those "free spots" with two Nagi Cav, three archers, and three Nodachi and have a nicely-rounded army, while the Mongol player would fill his 12 with inferior Korean footmen or expensive horses.

    Which army do you think would win if the generals were of equal skill?

    ------------------
    Disappear into the Darkness!!
    "If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

    "Hey, why are the enemy throwing their cookware at us?" *KABOOM* -- Thunderbomber sneak attack!

  30. #30

    Default

    Ahehe, one correction: Japs don't have Monks in Mongol era.
    My motto: Be sharp, not
    well-rounded.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO