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Thread: More AI reinforcement issues...

  1. #1
    Member Member ishikawa2's Avatar
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    I am playing Takeda and have taken all provinces except Tosa (held by Shimazu). I have huge production capability and superb troops available. Just for grins, I gather the ultimate Takeda assault force: I have my Daimyo, 2 gold shield/3 sword archers, and a mix of HC and NC... **ALL** gold shield with 2 or 3 swords. Most are honor 5 with a few 4s.

    I deploy for the ultimate cavalry charge and simply blow Shimazu off the map. With unit size of 60, my worst-hurt unit was still in the mid-50's with no enemy left. Most are still at 59 or 60. Since reinforcements appear anywhere now, I scatter my units around the entire (huge?) map. Shimazu had about 4 thousand troops available (I only brought the original 16 units.) Shimazu units keep popping up EVERYWHERE... even on the beach!! The game gets REALLY boring as I am forced to board my Medieval Japanese AWACS aircraft and begin a ceaseless patrol of the borders... round and round we go. Wherever I spot somebody, I sic a nearby HC or NC on them and blow them away. It goes on... and on... and on... and when the timer runs out... I LOSE!!! Somehow, somewhere there has to be a small surviving unit. I kill over 1800, losing about 100 and I LOSE???

    OK, since I **AM** the "horde", I reload, recombine, mount up again, and IT HAPPENS AGAIN!! I effing LOSE!

    OK, since I **AM** the "horde", I reload, recombine, mount up again, and IT ALMOST
    HAPPENS AGAIN!!
    Near the end of the battle period, I finally spot some enemy hidden in a spot on the beach behind a rock at the far upper right of the map. (Note this directly BEHIND my original position, and on a peninsula. These guys must be a SEAL team landed in rubber boats!) It looks like only one or two sprites but it says "60"??? Apparently the AI has dropped all of the men into a tiny area making them essentially invisible when viewing from a distance. This time I have time to get a unit of HC over there just before the timer runs out and watch the count of sprites rapidly count down to zero.

    OK, NOW I win!

    I hereby state my opinion that the current reinforcement method is seriously, seriously f*****d, errrr, flawed. These are HUGE maps and there simply would be no way to pull it off at all if you play with a restricted camera. Sometimes it seems the AI unit simply holes up at the edge of the map and does not move.

    It has now become necessary to fan out and sweep the whole board, especially woods. Oh yeah: and if the enemy has some battlefield ninja "hiding in plain sight" ... you're totally screwed... grumble, grumble.

  2. #2
    Gifted Dilettante Member DragonCat's Avatar
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    A suggestion. Can't you turn off the clock?

    Forgive my error if I'm wrong . . .

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  3. #3

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    DragonCat,
    Yep, I can turn off the clock. However, with the new feature that doesn't let me get new reinforcments as the offense after 15 minutes of time short a unit, how do I keep up missile fire on the defense? Or if I have the right army on offense I can literally rack up a 1.5K+ in kills with all but a few units after the original 16 getting _totally_ wiped out. Even Arqs can massacre nagas in melee after they rout all the way across the board. WM take something a little faster to keep up, but still.....

    On the other side, I haven't had a problem yet, even against huge armies. I just keep my radar on, patrol the map and do a good old search and destroy mission. First I get my stand up fight, then it is a bug hunt.

    I think part of the solution would be to deploy around most of the map and leave a killing zone on the edge clear. Then the reinforcements would come in there and you can toast them as they try to deploy, rinse, repeat.

  4. #4
    Member Member ishikawa2's Avatar
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    Yes, one could turn off the clock... but that has a number of fallout issues. Generally, many players wind up facing an AI "horde". Unlimited time for a battle lets the "horde" just keep on coming and may change the overall balance of the game.

    So far, I am **highly** skeptical that the reinforcement algorithm for the human player is at all close to correct. I have simply waited in vain for my reinforcements too many times with WE. It is as if there is now some probability of them getting lost and not finding the battle.

    Therefore, turning off the clock may let the AI keep on coming, but the human may never see his own reinforcements. That seems like a bad bargain to me.

    For myself, philosophically I am quite comfortable with the idea that the total time for combat is limited. In the real world in this era it was pretty much dawn to dusk.

    There are other issues here, too.
    1) Initial Position. Sometimes completely nonsensical like the "SEAL team".

    2) They get "stuck" and don't move if they get tangled up in some terrain feature.

    3) The AI places whole units into the space of one soldier's sprite... making that "unit" into almost a "stealth" unit. It's a lot harder to see a single warrior than a whole unit occupying it's full extent on the battlefield.

    4) Playing with "restricted camera" is actually the more realistic playing mode. But with this issue there isn't any hope.
    Only by using the "Medieval Japanese AWACS aircraft" is there any hope at all.

    5) You have no idea how BORING it got zooming round and round the map looking for stragglers. In my case, the real battle was over in a VERY few minutes, but it took up to twenty minutes or so of real-world time to hunt down stragglers. I maintain that the very idea that one
    confused sprite repeatedly bumping up against a tree somewhere can turn a overwhelming victory into a "defeat" is absolutely ridiculous.

  5. #5

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    Reinforcements do work. But only when you don't want them, and where you don't want them.

    I had just had my main attacking units routed by MLC and KSpearmen in an attempted bridge crossing, and, remembering all the times before when reinforcements didn't work, withdrew all my remaining troops. Unfortunately, THIS time, and only this time, my other reinforcements decided to come from THEIR side of the bridge, and, since I couldn't withdraw them (strangely [in real world terms], they couldn't go back the way they came), they got slaughtered.
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  6. #6
    Pleasing the Fates Senior Member A Nerd's Avatar
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    I've fought battles where numerous reinforcements have been made available and after much fighting, any new reinforcements the aqi gets immediately rout. Am I a wonderful general and game player? Do drill dojos really work that well? I like to thind #1 but I'm not sure.
    Silence is beautiful

  7. #7
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    I hate this AI reinforcement thing where the units come from every direction. Many times while I'm focusing on chasing some units (which I have no way of knowing if there's more coming or not) off the screen, an archer will spawn where I have some archers towards the back of the map with no ammo left, and they'll get pelted down to nothing before I knew what happened. Or worse, a cavalry unit will appear back there and slaughter them. Etc. It's really annoying never knowing how many units are left or where they'll come from.



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  8. #8

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    ....lol... as defender with a timed battle you cannot lose..... simply go around the map in the redzone with 2 units (1 on each side to control them)... they cant order attacks and the ai isnt equiped to deal with the situation..... now thats a bug...

    ai reinforcments are ok.... i think the problem is that the army with the most kills doesnt win... this would be much eaiser to fix and is already done online.



    [This message has been edited by CaPeFeAr (edited 08-16-2001).]

  9. #9
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
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    What a miserable feature...! This must be fixed along with the morale problem as soon as possible.

    One word: sucks.

  10. #10
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Personally,I like this feature.Always knowing where the enemy reenforcements enter the battlefield made it relatively easy to block them and rout them.It didn't matter if they had 10,000 to my 1,000;once I routed the original 16 enemy units off the field,the victory was mine.Now it is not so easy,I don't play with a timer so I don't get beat that way.To combat these unknown reenforcements I try to break up my 16 units into 3 parts,with my taisho in the approximate middle on high ground.I withdraw any seriously depleted units,or archers without arrows for fresh units,if I have any that is.I spread these 3 smaller armies out,on the high ground and attack any enemy reenforcements that show up.Having a balanced army yourself is now more important than ever.Especially Cav to chase and pin down these reenforcements till you can bring up your melee units.I notice that a lot of the enemy reenforcements rout almost as soon as they enter the battlefield this way.Coming from different areas on the map hurts them also,because they can't support each other's flank and are easier to rout with your 4 units that are covering that end of the battlefield.I think you guys just have to change your tactics a little,and you'll find you can handle this.The enemy reenforcements come piecemeal from different places,you have to divide your forces and defeat them piecemeal.Give it a try and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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  11. #11
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
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    Tito personally I respect your tactics and the amount of effort you invested to adjust to the change.

    However, I still think the new reinforcement method cannot be called "GOOD" even if it further (1) distinguishes good players from bad ones, or (2) reflects the numerical strength.

    For (1), every bad game still has winners. The winners might call it a good game as they kicked others' butt, but most people would call this a bad game. The game (or the new reinforcement method) is bad because now the battle becomes unrealistic. How can you have enemy coming from your rear if you are defending the only bridge that holds the gateway to your lands?

    For (2), I think the solution of accounting numerical strength should be directed to putting all of them on the battlefield instead of letting their reinforcement come in an unexpected, hard-to-handle manner.

    I agree that it is not realistic to win a battle once we rout the first 16 or 20 units out of the battlefield, but it is just even more unrealistic to compensate by letting the later comers fly all over the batlefield to deplete your time. It is just creating a bigger hole.

  12. #12
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    I respect your views Maltz,and can sympathize with having to change the end game tactics to account for this new reenforcement strategy.Having several enemy units pop up in your rear in a bridge province can be disconcerting,but they are only cut off from the main body of the enemy,and can be dealt with.Are there times you might lose this battle despite holding the bridge during the main assault,yes it has happened to me.Keep your eyes on that radar screen,situational awareness,and you won't be taken by suprise.I welcome the change and the challenge to this new tactic.
    Rivers can be crossed without bridges,happened all the time,so it is not unrealistic at all.In fact I think it is more realistic to expect the enemy to try and find another way across besides into the teeth of your army.Rise to the challenge people,I thought that is what we wanted,a game that challenges you,makes you modify your tactics instead of using the same ones over and over,with the AI falling for it every time.Having one or two reserve units becomes a very important strategy now.I'm enjoying this,because sometimes I get my head handed to me,and am not practically guaranteed of victory any more.

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    Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  13. #13

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    I personally do not like the new reinforcement either - however - how about a realistic compromise - one that will keep the reinforcing units from automatically routing?

    Instead of coming from ANY edge - the reinforcements arrive on any tile on their own end of the battlefield. Given the size of the new battlefields - it will be impossible to have all your forces concentrated enough to route the enemy immediately - plus if you try your likely to get flanked by another reinforcing unit. This way you do not have the unrealistic "seal teams", you alleviate the "stuck on the edge of the map on the water" bug, make defense and attack more realistic and preserve the idea of HOLDING the battlefield all at the same time.

    Thoughts?

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  14. #14

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    I think the new reinforcement sucks. So at least, there should be an option to return to the old method or as someone else have said keep them coming from one side of the map, not all over the place. Sometimes, my reinforcement never come out, maybe I used the select unit button. I withdrawn some units before half of the time pie and nothing ever showed up and the battle ended after the timer is full.

  15. #15

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    Tito, yes rivers can be crossed at places other than rivers. Yes it was/is done all the time. However it was common practice to picket crossing points with small detatchments to monitor if the enemy was crossing or massing there. This would take place on the missing (from STW) operational level of the game. No, I'm not asking for an operational level to manuver inside the province before the tactical battle. It is a fair assumption in this kind of simulation to assume you hold your side of the river. I haven't had a problem with this, but then I've always has a cav and a couple of shock units in my river defense armies. It is annoying to have to deal with this BS, especially when you don't get the same option since your reinforcements never show. At least I've never seen any when I've been defending.

  16. #16
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Algesan,are you saying that when you have withdrawn troops,or had them routed,and you had reinforcements availiable they never showed?I've never had this problem yet so I don't know what to say,a bug maybe?I just won a hard fought battle in Owari last night and my reinforcements came from the enemy side of the river.Since I was still not in control of the bridges I hid them,1 ND and 1 YA in the woods on the hill of the defender's side.When the time was right and the enemy was wavering at the bridge I charged down that hill and the enemy broke.Other than the fact that these battles will take longer,that's why I don't use the timer,I can't really see why some feel it's such an insurmountable problem.You are definitely on the right track using a strike force,Cav and ND,to defend against this.The enemy is doing something unexpected,"the fog of war",and I find it refreshing and challenging.I'm sorry some people think it's "unfair",I think it's the enemy playing smart.I like it better than the horde in the old game,and come to think of it,we figured out how to beat that too,didn't we?

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    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

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