View Poll Results: How justified is this war? - USA/UK v Iraq

Voters
139. This poll is closed
  • 90-100%     (this war is absolutely necessary - now)

    30 21.58%
  • 80-90%

    14 10.07%
  • 70-80%

    13 9.35%
  • 60-70%

    10 7.19%
  • 50-60%

    3 2.16%
  • 40-50%

    7 5.04%
  • 30-40%

    7 5.04%
  • 20-30%

    5 3.60%
  • 10-20%

    9 6.47%
  • 0-10%       (nothing justifies this war at present)

    41 29.50%
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Thread: How justified is this war?

  1. #31
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I agree with U.S. crushing Sadam ... somebody should do it anyway, at one point ...

    BUT the reasons are, obviously, not the ones stated ...

    The history stays like this: in 1937, Kuweit is put under the U.S. protectorate, in order to secure the oil reserves it had ... Than Sadam wants to take it back (as it originaly was an Irakian province), so the Gulf War starts; the americans argue that the new global order starts from 1945, not earlier, so they defeat him ... Anyway, Sadam crossed the line, and it is a threat to his neibours if left alone, but not with Europe and U.S. ready to opose ...

    THE ACTUAL CRISIS comes, in my opinion, as a result of the U.S. frustration for being politicaly defeated in the Gulf WAR - the actual administration and staff members around Bush are mainly the same as then (Powell, Kissinger etc.).

    I think the oposition manifested by France and Germany comes not because they care for Sadam or for peace, but because they must rally Europe around them - the ideea for an european army just started to make it's way - so no one should fear for a major conflict now; Russia, also, demonstrates that an alliance with Europe it's prefered to one with US; I think S.U.A. are mistaking in leting this happen, as they will end up in the future as Great Britain stands now before Europe: a huge island on the western shores of the U.E. + Russia ...

    So Europe will let U.S. to crush Sadam, nobody objects, they only use this ocasion in order to give a cry for unity in it's ranks ... I'm on Europes' side, anyway ...

    Just my opinion





  2. #32
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 18 2003,11:23)]huh?


    well if im a puppet of bush ur a puppet of shirac or rather sadham.
    who said u re a puppet of bush?


    concerning the situation in the U.K . Well it gets pretty serious as in every other country where the P.M supports this war without the people agreeing on. People resign and people rebel against him. It is my personal oppinion that Mr Blair just buried his political future.


    BTW a nice article ,
    Paolo Coelho thanks George Bush for attacking Iraq
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Interesting results on this poll so far.

    Strong support for 2 extremes of this poll, but thats only to be expected.

    Many people will, presumably, always oppose war regardless of the facts/circumstances. Likewise, others will always support the Government/military of their country.

    Still, with so small a sample conclusions are prone to error, so if you hav'nt yet 'voted' please do. I think this may be revealing.

    What surprises me is the relatively even spread in the middle. What does this suggest in terms of the information/justification presented to us all in respect of this inevitable military action? Nothings is really clear for the majority?

    BTW - it IS inevitable now. The White House announced this afternoon that US troops WILL enter Iraq - regardless of whether or not Saddam complies with the 48 hour ultimatum.

    I'll make no comment in respect of this statement - most people know my views




  4. #34
    Member Member MongolWarrior's Avatar
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    This war is very nessecary to flush Saddam Hussein from power or there might possibly be World War III.(translation:no earth&#33
    I am Kublai Khan,the great khan.My lands stretch from sunrise to sunset.I ride with the horde at my back.We are fearless,and unstoppable.We ride,and no enemy is left alive! My warriors? Ha! There are none greater in all the world!

  5. #35
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Mar. 18 2003,04:22)]I can't see any reason for this war. Saddam was an American puppet; they sold him much of the stuff they want to disarm.

    American puppet gone bad? Let them deal with it.
    Actually, no. Iraq was a client state of the Soviet Union throughout the Iraq/Iran war.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  6. #36
    Member Member Heraclius's Avatar
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    I don't think that was true. After all the US put Saddam's regime in power, armed him with WMD during the Iran/Iraq war and sent CIA agents to help. Iran was considered the greater of two evils at the time, remeber the Terhan Hostage Crisis, or so Reagan's administration's reasoning went.
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  7. #37
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Mar. 18 2003,11:42)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 18 2003,11:23)]huh?


    well if im a puppet of bush ur a puppet of shirac or rather sadham.
    who said u re a puppet of bush?


    concerning the situation in the U.K . Well it gets pretty serious as in every other country where the P.M supports this war without the people agreeing on. People resign and people rebel against him. It is my personal oppinion that Mr Blair just buried his political future.


    BTW a nice article ,
    Paolo Coelho thanks George Bush for attacking Iraq
    I doubt it. Victory takes care of a lot of political problems. And does anyone here believe that the US/Britain won't find hidden chemical/bio/possibly nuclear weapons? Because when we do, this will shut a lot of people up.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  8. #38
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Swordsman @ Mar. 18 2003,11:21)]You're probably right-- if Gore had been elected I'm sure we would still be conducting focus groups and polls


    For the record, you guys DO realize that our presidential elections aren't by a simple majority, right? That (for better or worse) we have this thing called the Electroal College? That big states have a lot more impact than little ones?

    Kinda funny that no Democrat complains that all the electoral votes of a huge state like California consistently goes Democrat regardless of how close the vote might be.

    For good or bad it's our system. Bush won with support of a ruling by our highest court (Also hilarious that people would discount the Supreme Court in favor of a partisan-packed State Supreme Court). He's our President-- get over it and move on with your lives.
    Exactly Swordsman. It's sad that you, I and others have to remind some people that the election is over and Bush is the President.

    What I find most irritating is the fact that the main reason that *many* do not support the war is because Bush is President. If, in some alternate reality, Clinton were President, you simply wouldn't see this. I'll post a reply with a quote from such a person who posted on this very thread.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  9. #39
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ Mar. 18 2003,01:55)]Seriously....I'm on the fence with this one. I am from the U.S. My biggest objection to the war, is the person who is spearheading it. I seriously don't agree with a person who has a worse GPA in college than I....reguardless of the college it is....since he didn't get himself into it. And honestly, I'm not a genious. There are many others more qualified and more down to earth that could make much better decisions. If Bill Clinton said it was necessary to go to war (if he was still President) then I would consider it much more necessary. True, Clinton gets credit for many good things that he had no influence over, but honestly he was much better. The sheer fact that our president is GWB seriously embarrasses me. He acts as if his actions couldn't fail, simply because he is not smart enough to recognize his own faults.
    This is the proof. To many, this is anti-Bush. If Clinton were President, there wouldn't even be a debate. Sad.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  10. #40
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 19 2003,00:37)]I don't think that was true. After all the US put Saddam's regime in power, armed him with WMD during the Iran/Iraq war and sent CIA agents to help. Iran was considered the greater of two evils at the time, remeber the Terhan Hostage Crisis, or so Reagan's administration's reasoning went.
    Wrong and right. The Soviets backed Iraq, not the United States, although you are correct that we did *support* them as a tool to be used against Iran.

    NY Times - February 3, 2002


    Tempted by Oil, Russia Draws Ever Closer to Iraq

    By MICHAEL WINES

    ...Baghdad still owes Russia at least $8 billion from the days of the cold war when, as a client state, Iraq outfitted its military with armor bought on Soviet credit. Then there are billions of dollars in oil contracts with Russian companies, and billions of dollars more trading that could be done with a pro-Russian government in Baghdad...
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  11. #41
    Member Member Heraclius's Avatar
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    thanks for the correction Tim. my memory gets worse and worse everyday. ask any of the other guys around here. anyway thanks for putting me on the right track.
    Heraclius you are just being a silly Greek...-Galestrum

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  12. #42
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Mar. 18 2003,04:22)]I can't see any reason for this war. Saddam was an American puppet; they sold him much of the stuff they want to disarm.

    American puppet gone bad? Let them deal with it.
    Forgot to mention this. Please show a pic or something of Iraqi troops using US military hardware. You cannot. Why? Because Iraq was supplied by the Soviet Union, not the United States.

    And we certainly did not give him bio weapons (not implying that you said this.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry.asp
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  13. #43
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 19 2003,00:55)]thanks for the correction Tim. my memory gets worse and worse everyday. ask any of the other guys around here. anyway thanks for putting me on the right track.
    Good lord, that was a scary-quick reply Heraclius

    I mean, lets be reasonable. The United States did have to support its share of, shall we say, despotic dictators around the world. I would, however, challenge someone to show that any (perhaps most) of these nations had ever been ruled by any other means.

    There was something called the Cold War going on and it was a life and death struggle between Democracy and the West pitted against the Soviet Empire. Because if we didn't support our share of these despots, then the Soviets would have had a monopoly on them and thus, control of most of the world.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  14. #44
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Tim @ Mar. 19 2003,01:04)]Because if we didn't support our share of these despots, then the Soviets would have had a monopoly on them and thus, control of most of the world.
    I thought McCarthyism died in the 1950's ...

    ... apparently not.

  15. #45
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    The Iraqi regime has toyed long enough with the UN and its resolutions; now face the serious consequences…
    Status Emeritus

  16. #46
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Red face

    There is no moral or legal justification for this war .
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  17. #47
    Member Member MongolWarrior's Avatar
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    Less than 24 hours
    I am Kublai Khan,the great khan.My lands stretch from sunrise to sunset.I ride with the horde at my back.We are fearless,and unstoppable.We ride,and no enemy is left alive! My warriors? Ha! There are none greater in all the world!

  18. #48
    Senior Member Senior Member MonkeyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 18 2003,16:06)]by attacking Iraq I am afraid that the US is leading itself down a long and dangerous path. I don't know what the future holds but it could easily contain attacks on US soil by Muslim terrorists, a large economic recession, many long time US allies becoming disillusioned and disgusted with America etc, etc. I can't help but agree with Blair's minister who just resigned, when he said that if the hanging chads had gone the other way in Flordia and AL Gore had been elected President this war would not be happening.
    Interesting outlook on world history there. I can just imagine kids 50 years in the future having an exam question on the glorified hole punch that changed the course of history.




  19. #49
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Sigurd Fafnesbane @ Mar. 19 2003,07:14)]The Iraqi regime has toyed long enough with the UN and its resolutions; now face the serious consequences…
    yeah...and on the other hand the U.S fully supports and respects U.N resolutions eh? that was a joke right?


    As i told earlier both countries : dont respect U.S resolutions , dont accept the international court , have WMDs , used WMDs , have presidents not elected by the majority , have human rights violations , racial discrimination , attacked other countries without provocation and the list goes on. If you also consider that 90% of the planet considers the U.S as the biggest threat of the planet while iraq and N.korea share the rest then i believe it would be wiser to 'free' the u.s citizens first and then go 'free' the iraqi ones. Does any of my american friends want to be 'freed' ?



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  20. #50
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Sigurd Fafnesbane @ Mar. 19 2003,13:14)]The Iraqi regime has toyed long enough with the UN and its resolutions; now face the serious consequences…
    Yes we should attack them and kill them. How dare they toy with us

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  21. #51

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    Well, I don't think, that George F****** Bush is the problem here as many of you stated. He's not evil, maybe he's arrogant (well, I'm shure about that ), but most of all he's goddamn stupid. His advisors are a problem indeed. (So, with Gore as president things may have run a bit differently, but who knows...)

    The other thing I wanted to say is that even if the iraqi troops are not armed with american weapons, they might have bought the russian stuff with american money. Consider that.
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  22. #52
    Member Member wordsmith's Avatar
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    America supplied Iraq with roughly 2% of its post gulf war arms, russia supplied the vast majority with france coming in second. The kuwaties lent sudham the money he used to buy most of his arms and pay his army with, then when sudham relized he couldnt pay the money back and the kuwaties were not willing to cut him any breaks he decided it would be easier just to take them over. At the time of attacking kuwate sadham had strong ties with some powerfull american oil intrests and sadham basicly told america to stay out of the war and that he would be our man in the middle east. Yet instead of taking him up on the oil deals and supporting his dictatorship we reppelled him from kuwate and laid economic sanctions upon his nation.

    people then, like now, said that america was only in it to steal iraqi oil. Yet sadham had offered us access to the oil and we refused, then once we had control of iraq and only needed to take the capital we pulled out and then put trade sanctions on the country that ment NO ONE got the oil. not america, not france, not russia.

    When america went into iraq we put our selves in harms way, the only UN troops their were just making token appearances. The american soldiers won the war, and the american people paid for the war. Now we, the americans, are stuck with the job of compleating the resolution of disarming sadham. Yet while we are committed to have our troops there and have inspectors poke around the UN refuses to act while sadham shoots at our pilots and threatens our inspectors. Shooting at american pilots is an act of war, I dont care who is shooting, be it russia, china, or the brits... shooting at american planes is as good as a declaration of war. The UN does nothing to prevent sadham from arming himself with weapons of mass destruction, yet it is america that is enforcing the previous resolution and america/isreal will bare the brunt of any use of these weapons. The UN made us a target, I feel america is 100% justified in doing what ever it takes to protect itself at this point. In my opinion the VERY best option for every side is if america withdraws its unconditional support of isreal and withdraws its troops from every nation where we are not welcome. gorge washington was very wise to warn us to not get involved with forign entanglements, because now that we support isreal, now that we inforce economic sanctions, now we are a target, untill we are no longer a target we have to do what ever it takes to protect ourselves.

    (sorry for the long post, its a long issue)
    Save the kurds

  23. #53
    Member Member Knight_Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Mar. 18 2003,17:42)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 18 2003,11:23)]huh?


    well if im a puppet of bush ur a puppet of shirac or rather sadham.
    who said u re a puppet of bush?


    concerning the situation in the U.K . Well it gets pretty serious as in every other country where the P.M supports this war without the people agreeing on. People resign and people rebel against him. It is my personal oppinion that Mr Blair just buried his political future.


    BTW a nice article ,
    Paolo Coelho thanks George Bush for attacking Iraq
    ok the puppet bit was a joke

    (ahhh scottish humour is rarely noticed)


    but rasoforus u seen the news today 50% of britian is behind war now and its expected that when we fight more people will support the war.

    British Army: be the best

  24. #54

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    Is there evidence that a single rocket was fired on american planes?
    Don't believe propaganda
    If it is a declaration of war (what it shurely is) then why all the talking and searching for arguments?
    Why all that rubbish about preemptive defense?
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  25. #55

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    I don't know if there are many people naive enough to trust good intentions of Bush and his government.
    It is like that joke about killing a fly with a club and thus killing the person on which the fly landed.

    just reposting links to Paulo Coelho's open letter to Bush:
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/other_c....=satire

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/other_c....=satire

  26. #56
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Siena @ Mar. 19 2003,16:27)]I don't know if there are many people naive enough to trust good intentions of Bush and his government.
    It is like that joke about killing a fly with a club and thus killing the person on which the fly landed.

    just reposting links to Paulo Coelho's open letter to Bush:
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/other_c....=satire

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/other_c....=satire
    Why waste your time with the link. This sort of anti/Bush/War drivel can be found in many other locations. Let's see you defend this over the next few days when the truth is revealed to all those who wanted to ignore it.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  27. #57
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 19 2003,07:03)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Tim @ Mar. 19 2003,01:04)]Because if we didn't support our share of these despots, then the Soviets would have had a monopoly on them and thus, control of most of the world.
    I thought McCarthyism died in the 1950's ...

    ... apparently not.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  28. #58
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Sundance @ Mar. 19 2003,14:16)]Well, I don't think, that George F****** Bush is the problem here as many of you stated. He's not evil, maybe he's arrogant (well, I'm shure about that ), but most of all he's goddamn stupid. His advisors are a problem indeed. (So, with Gore as president things may have run a bit differently, but who knows...)

    The other thing I wanted to say is that even if the iraqi troops are not armed with american weapons, they might have bought the russian stuff with american money. Consider that.
    Two things.

    First, Gore did not win. Get over it. Bush is the President, has been for two years.

    Secondly, Iraq did not purchase Soviet weapons with American money.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  29. #59

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    Get over it Gore did win Or at least he would have won if the United States of America were a democracy, which they obviously aren't.

    And now go on and fight the other 132 completely justified wars In the name of god
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  30. #60
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Decent discussion so far, fellas. I will remind all to pause before clicking 'submit', breathe-in, breathe out, re-read your post, checking for civility & relevance, then go for it.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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