Solid fan base

[Monsta]

The SP game is second to non in many ways.....MP has become rather poor.

Do you see this or does the game now suit your style of play?

Does it seem odd that so many long time players of the 24/7 mold have left the game?

Mass marketing over loyal fan base?

Can somebody tell me who they consulted about historic fact so Monsta can bite his ear off.

[Alastair II]

I didn't like any of your choices; I do love MP, and think it is superior to SP, but I don't think it's like AOE or C&C, since those games were clearly clickfests. Other than some slight balance problems (which, I think, many players blow up larger than their true significance), which I took a long while to discover, MP is very, very good. I didn't play STW MP, but from what I hear, it was just 8 gun/8monk, shoot-then-charge. Now I think it's much better; I especially like the need for army cohesiveness in 15k or below games.

[Alrowan]

all bad choices mate... you seem.. erhm.. very negative...

if there was an option "MTW MP is fine and dandy" then maybe you would have my vote... but seeing as you are pessimistic, i think the old man will shush up

[Muneyoshi]

Quote[/b] (Alastair II @ Feb. 22 2003,14:51)]I didn't play STW MP, but from what I hear, it was just 8 gun/8monk, shoot-then-charge.

No, most used a max of 4 limit

[youssof_Toda]

In STW we didn't have any maxes cuz it wasn't necesarry. MI is another story...

[ElmarkOFear]

What Yousoff says is true. MI/WE started the 4 max rule and was one of the reasons they put a penalty for anything over 4 units in MTW. Actually, monk rushes and gun armies in stw were easily beat once people learned how to beat them. Then everybody had more balanced armies.

[Tera]

Everyday there are about 150 players playing MP, and 200+ is very common indeed. STW and MI might have been more enjoyable to the long timers ...but this is the peak of Total War MP experience. The old timers that faded will be replaced by new ones. It's a cycle.

If you play MTW regularly but pay a regular visit to STW/MI ...you'll probably get the best Total War can offer to you at the moment.

If some old timers don't play regularly anymore we shouldn't condemn the game...this HAS become the game of the masses...the old concept of a very enjoyable game but played by less than 50 everyday might be suited for our old butts...but not for such a saga with such high ambitions. If I would ever want to create an 'elitist group', I would rather create it within a game played by several hundreds...

My hope is that RTW isn't too 'commercial'. But MTW finds a good balance between the hardcore players and the masses in my opinion. I chose "its normal for old timers to leave the game" - because:

1. Ultimately we all get a bit bored of the same game...unless you accept new changes...you will.
2. The game is shifting from a 'hardcore wargamers' sphere of influence to a 'mass' sphere of influence...it's normal that some hardcore players don't like it.
3. They realised that STW is a better game for them ...so why playing MTW?

Personally, as an old timer, I too find STW a better game when balanced armies are involved...but meeting 100+ players everyday...seeing new faces...playing different factions...joining the remaining old timers for epic matches...is...fun. If you don't have fun too, tough luck

Tera

[Monsta]

Maybe the list should have contained-

In STW/MI/WE I hardly ever won an MP battle but now I do fine.

The option-
I feel nothing should be changed because the game is perfect.

was left out because that one belongs in the realm of flying pigs and cotton clouds made from candyfloss.

My concern is the attitude of the sheep..or should we call them the masses... as we say with MI/WE as soon as the game developers begin to throw scraps from their mighty meal table....alot of the problems die and the sheep/masses get 'beer goggles'(you know..like when your drunk and the ugly slapper looks worth the time) and forget that we have been let down by the previous offering because of some silly bug.

For example..Monsta remembers how Puzz was attacked for doubting the words of a person who came here to offer scraps of info about MTW...and Puzz is worth a thousand of those website promoting charlatans.

To be honest if we were to buy a meal and the main course was rotten...i.e the stake was nice but your veggies contained maggots..would we not complain cos they promised that your cake was going to be nice?...doubtful..we wouldnt go to that place again...so why should we allow the maggots of TW to stay on the plate?

simple answer..there is nowhere else to eat

Monsta welcomes the new input into the Org by LG and the others but for once Monsta hopes they listen to the MP voices and realise they may grow the food but are the Chefs who create the masterpiece....to a great extent.

Please remember the people who complain are also trying to get you 'young whipper snappers' a better game aswell...Tw is without doubt the best (yes BEST) game created..shouldnt be let down by poor customer care and often glossed over bugs etc.

(lots of food references...now where did monsta put his bag of ears?)

[Puzz3D]

Original STW had 14 unit types and 1 faction, and had about a 10% unbalance in MP. MTW has something like 60 unit types, 12 factions and 3 eras, and is something like 20% unbalanced. It was apparent to me in STW that an experienced player knows how to take advantage of a 10% unbalance. Along comes MTW with many more units and not as good balance. Many STW vets thought they could step in and do well right of the bat with their STW battle experience, but the gameplay in MTW is different. The routing away from the threat, the ability to disengage and the fatigue are things that alter the gameplay a lot. Also, there is no short cut to learning the units, and with 20% unbalance you have to know how to purchase your army.

It would be nice to get MTW down to less than a 10% unbalance, but it's not a trivial task and I don't expect it to happen. I do think the obvious imbalances should be taken care of, and that is apparently going to happen in VI. VI is a chance to get the MP balance of MTW improved, and all you can do is say what you think should be changed and back it up some good reasoning. The fact that the dev's come here and read people's suggestions is a really good thing, and some of those suggestions will no doubt make it into the game. However, with the limited patching policy of Activision caution is called for in making changes. A process that actually requires lots of small steps is instead being carried out with two big steps; the second of which you have to spend money to get.

[Magyar Khan]

well i think mtw is best w eever had, dont chance a thing. in my silly undercover fur playing with stupid armies i am unbeaten. i never was during stw. only when i look at my army compositions i start to cry....

i will moan anyway, its so easy to hamper everyones intentions to improve the game but so many little own goals will disrupt a positive process.

i say, dont chance a thing. teh game is perfect now.

[baz]

Well the way i see it, and that is purely from Jan 2002 onwards is ... when i started many of the old vets had already left TW, whether this was due to the introduction of MI im not sure, or whether it was just ppl getting bored with the game, im not sure??
All i know is this series has been around for a long time, i dont think you can blame ppl leaving TW on game inbalances, it might be a contributing factor but at the end of the day ppl come and go, move on to different things That will never change even if a TW game came out that was 100% balanced If this did ever happen you think all the old players would come back?? im not too sure about this either

btw just out of interest, how many logfiles you got in your folder Monsta?

[Kas]

I didn't vote, all options are too negative, sure the balance isn't what it should be, but then again, more units and factions make it probably impossible to get a perfect game. I agree with Tera...people come and people go...that's life.

What I don't understand is this...if STW and/or MI are better...why don't play it anymore? Both servers are up.

Kas

[Puzz3D]

Magyar,

You are intentionally trying to hamper improvement of the game? Thanks a lot.

[Knight_Yellow]

lets put it this way totalwar is just that totalwar nothing else and it gets tiring after a while plus theres just generaly better games out there ie. battlefield 1942 is the game that stole me away from total war.

maybe were all just pissed cos many cenial vets think that VI is just a glorified patch. maybe it is who cares u get a new map 8 new factions and tons of new units. ppl only called it a patch after one of the devs said it would fix a few bugs LIKE ALL ADD'ONS DO.

so lets calm down and realize that total war isnt the sole reason to have a computer.

[InsaneFox]

well stw was the reason i spent 1000 pounds
to get this computer and i do think its a better
game and kas i log on to the first stw server
every nite atleast 8 times looking for a game
cos i love that game mtw well i wish i had spent
the money on something else anything else

[Monsta]

FoxyInsane..same reason monsta bought his P.C...as it became illegal to shoot people with arrows where i live after 6pm.

As for the vote going up about 'moaning old people' thats ok..as the young fellas and ladies are just releasing their internal anger that should really be directed at society in positive manner..or they just feel bitter towards their parents who never listen...strange though...its a bit like the players (MP mainly) relationship with the TW companies (be it CA or Actwithlessvision)..we tell them this is wrong and that is wrong..but they dont notice our tiny voices..until we steal the family car and run next doors dog over...

errrm.where was i..

anyway...

Puzz your just showing off now with your %...dont think I havent noticed..('tut&#39

On a serious note (ahem)...nobody is expecting perfection and it is nice change to see a name related to CA actually reading our tripe....but if they continue to ignore glitches and bugs only to release new games as a form of 'cover up'...a revolution will erupt and the world will end (honest)



Simple message after all that..if somebody complains do not jump on them.....listen as they may have a point..after all we want the same things..a playable..balanced gaming system....and for gods sake a font larger than an ants earhole.

[FearofNC]

polar fixed the font

mtw is better than stw or mi... the grapics are better...the servers are online more often and have less lag...the game play is more fun.. and i still find tatics defeat the simple ctrl click rush... get rid of the lancers and i think u can say mtw is 10% balanced also. withen reason that is... christians and muslims still dont match up that well even in the desert

[Monsta]

or how bows now fire flowers instead of arrows.

[Knight_Yellow]

if CA listened to every1 and tried to represent every1 then the game would be too personalised and would consequently suck.

so lets just stop being paranoid about "patches" that are addons etc. and just play the game.

[TosaInu]

I understand the frustrations here, I really do. But look at it from another perspective.

The TW series is a commercial product, it only survives when copies are sold.

STW started as a SP game, it enabled parts of the SP (custom battle) because it was a 'minor' step to enable those. I say 'minor', because I'm sure that some problems had to be solved and that some manhours were put in it, to make it work.

The STW MP games were pretty fine, not perfect but quite addicting. How many customers played MP? 1,000? I think less, but even 1,000 sold copies will never cover the development costs. (We all know that the 25,000 nicks in the MP database are not 25,000 different people).

The profits come from people who play SP. It's hence only natural that the company invests most resources in the SP part. Think what would happen if CA had only perfected the MP part of STW WE/MI so that all MP players would be pleased and not had changed anything to the SP. Would the company still exist now? Would STW WE/MI please all those 1,000 MP players forever? The answer to both is a firm no.

It must have been clear to CA that money wasn't coming from MP, yet they invested time to update the MP part. Granted, a lot was just lifting with the changes of SP, and some stuff that worked fine in SP turned into something negative for MP.

Was STW WE a huge MP success? No. But it was still very addictive, and the ease to make maps and change the stat did make MP better.

Yet, MTW offers MP again. And it includes fixes for MP problems we had in STW WE: limited valour upgrades (SP has up to V11 and more, MP max V4), rushtax (not optimally working yet), don't see enemy deployment and even more parameters in the stat to change. Our feedback. Coincidence that's there?

Not every bit of feedback made it, either because it didn't fit in the big picture, limited resources or not understanding why it should be required.

Is MTW MP going to bring in some cash? I see more people in the foyer. That is a good thing, since it would mean that CA can invest more money in the MP part to secure the sales.

Longjohn, together with other CA developers, is visiting this board to exchange ideas about future titles. The VI balancing topic in this forum discusses improvements for the next title. Longjohn is adding extra fields to allow the MP stat to be different from the SP. He also promised to increase the morale by 2. The latter is something even I could do within 5 minutes, again thank to CA for releasing the Excel worksheets, but adding the columns is something different. Reassigning units to eras is also going to require some time.

Will VI MP be perfect? I doubt so, I hope it will be better. I'm convinced that CA is still working on it, despite the fact that working on MP is currently only a future investment at best.

[ShadeWraith]

The main reason I dont play MTW anymore is not necessarily a game balancing issue. It's more to do with the fact that I finally saw the light and realised CA/Activision dont give a toss about MP. MTW MP is about four retrograde steps behind STW. So in the 3 years between STW being released and MTW they have managed to bugger up the MP side of things. I have zero faith in either CA or Activisions commitment to MP in future TW releases and as such will not be purchasing any further versions until I KNOW MP is sorted technically if not from a game balancing issue. Im sure there would be a lot less angst in the TW community if you all realised that TW is primarily an SP experience...with MP tagged on as an afterthought because the marketing people like it as "all games these days have internet play as an option".




Wraith

[Magyar Khan]

[Puzz3D]

I played 12 3v3 and 4v4 battles on Saturday over a 15 hr session and they all ran fine except for 1 which was lagged because one of the players had a slow machine/slow connection. There were a few drops in these games, but again it was always players with connection problems. I've been playing some STW and WE/MI, and many games never launch and once they do big battles are laggy. STW isn't technically better than MTW for me, but MTW is not perfect either. Anyone who is frustrated over the game for whatever reason is better served playing some other game. The whole idea of recreational time is to do something with it that you enjoy. The monetary cost of a game is insignificant compared to the time and effort invested in playing it. Make a wise choice for your own well being. Also as a general statement, I think it's particularly mean to try and take away other people's enjoyment because you don't like the game. It's a recreational activity.

[Knight_Yellow]

"noobs" come in for there first game get their asses handed to them big time and blame the game and dont even try to play again.

ok so CA has been a little lacking in the mp support but u cant blame them. i mean its like telling EA there gay cos they wont improve sp in battlefield 1942 (no1 buys that for sp) and realisticly we would all do the same.

the only way to get a better mp experience is to stop moaning and just start a petition and hoipefuly CA will follow the majority's needs.

[Aleborg]

Sigh

Can someone pls tell me where did I put my kensai??
Booooo, Im sure i put him on my bed (grrrrrr, ermmm here????, where are u????????????, grrrrrrrr)

[ShadeWraith]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Feb. 24 2003,08:50)]I played 12 3v3 and 4v4 battles on Saturday over a 15 hr session and they all ran fine except for 1 which was lagged because one of the players had a slow machine/slow connection. There were a few drops in these games, but again it was always players with connection problems. I've been playing some STW and WE/MI, and many games never launch and once they do big battles are laggy. STW isn't technically better than MTW for me, but MTW is not perfect either. Anyone who is frustrated over the game for whatever reason is better served playing some other game. The whole idea of recreational time is to do something with it that you enjoy. The monetary cost of a game is insignificant compared to the time and effort invested in playing it. Make a wise choice for your own well being. Also as a general statement, I think it's particularly mean to try and take away other people's enjoyment because you don't like the game. It's a recreational activity.

I was going to add in my post that the network code for MTW is infinitely better than STW, but I was on a break from work and didnt have much time to type. However IMO the gamespy/foyer issues in MTW out weigh the gains. I havent got time to waste setting up and black screening etc.I'm lucky if I manage 1 game an hour Players who support MTW MP really need to play some games where MP is an integral part of the user experience...I'm sure it would be a real eye opener if they saw what can be achieved if developers actually give a toss





Wraith

[Puzz3D]

I guess I'm lucky, but I haven't had a hang at the black screen in games that I host in my last 30 games or more. I do restart MTW after every game. It takes me about 30 seconds to do that and get back into the foyer. I have noticed improved logon to the foyer in the last week or so. Someone (can't remember who) mentioned to me that Activition made some changes to the Gamespy server about a week ago, but I don't know if that's true.

One game an hour is about right for me. Typical battle is 30 to 40 min with a break between battles. The real killer timewise for me is drops during battle because the battle is ruined by the drop, and, if the players want to play it out, it can end up adding as much as 30 min to the time already wasted.

[Magyar Khan]

moaning is our only way of "petitioning" yellow. in 4 years TW moaning proved to be most effective when its MP concerned.

[Knight_Yellow]

hmmm fair enough magyar but maybe we should set up a petition anyway.

wraith i play mp games only now and i can safely say that mtw's mp is still better than most rts games.

since theres only about 1000 ppl who play mp i think CA have gone beyond the call of duty in helping the mp community, hopefully VI will help with some technical issues, i view VI as an expac and the fact that it has a sort of patch with it is a bonus to me.

[Dionysus9]

I understand CA's decision to invest in the SP part of the game, but I disagree that it was strategically necessary or even the best decision.

This whole argument that only SP could drive TW development is circular.

CA puts all their eggs in the SP basket. CA promotes SP and spends 95% of resources on SP. Is it any wonder SP sales will increase as a result?

If CA put all their eggs in the MP basket, promoted MP, and spent 95% of resources on MP, dont you think MP sales would increase and make up the bulk of CA's revenue?

The MP aspect of this game is far superior to SP, even with the marginal emphasis it has received from CA.

How many people sit around and play Unreal Tournament alone, on SP? Not too damn many, its an MP game.

A long time ago CA decided to make TW an SP game. They put all of their eggs in that basket, and they've never questioned that decision since. I, personally, think they made a big mistake. TotalWar has far more potential as an MP game than it ever will as an SP game. Want some proof? The artificial intelligence SUCKS and CA has never been able to improve it much, no matter how hard they try. The deplorable AI limits the potential of SP. With minimal efforts, however, CA could drastically improve the playability of MP.

SP has limited potential. MP has unlimited potential.

If you were CA, would you invest in SP or MP?

I just think they missed out on a potentially huge MP market, and although they are making a bit of money at SP, I don't think it was their best choice to emphasize.

Dunno, I'm sure they have market reasearch and statistics to backup their decision but things sure look different here on teh front lines.

Just my 2 cents.