MP stats discussion.

[+DOC+]

I'd also consider increasing the range of the handgunner from 2000 to 3000, which would then only be 1000 shorter the arquebusier. At the moment the handgunner's range of 2000 means they will simply spend most of their time skirmishing rather than shooting.

[Kocmoc]

i tested wit ha general +2 moral and it works very well so far for me.

to the missles agree that they need to be raise but a bit more power is needed as well

i miss the arba, if i want to balance the missles all together/at all, i look back at the STW----- archer vs missle fight.

andi if i see the arba as the musk now (plz dont laugh) i think the arbas has too many accuracy compared to a normal archer (dont want a historical discussion plz).

i think we have to lower the armour for the arba or at least the power compared to the archers.
this is jsut a view intern between al lthe missles not a extern vier vs other units like h2h or cav.

as far all the units got more armour i raised the power of my archers a bit.
example: the mounted bow has a accuracy of 0,65 and a reload time of 3 the power i raised to 1,5.
i would give them all 40 arrows.

i see this compared to other h2h or cav units, if we raise the cav from 40 of 60 men i would agree with ur accuracy.
but the cavarcher has already disadvance as they are just 40 men.

the arba range i lowered to 5000 as well.

koc

[+DOC+]

but remember the arbalester is a High period unit and therefore supposed to be better than the archer?

For the mounted bow you could consider a 0.40 to 0.55 increase, which is quite substantial (37.5% increase) compared to what it is now. The increased mobility easily compensates for its other failings.

Koc, if i remember correctly, power only affects the amount of hit points of damage done on a successful "kill". All men apart from the general and King have 1 hit popint, so increasing power should have very little to no effect. Therefore it is lethality you want to mod, not power, and i made suggestions in the earlier post towards possible mods.

Koc, i'd also try modding a little at first otherwise you'll end up in a quagmire of stats and probably a complete mess. I feel only slight mods to the "bow" units are required, while leaving the melee stats of all missile units alone.

More ammo for the archers...? Sure, i currently have mine at 30 which is an increase of 2 from the original 28. This translates into an extra 120 arrows for a 60 man unit, no?

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (JRock @ Nov. 12 2002,08:42)]I'll respond this time to you DOC, since it addresses issues that affect us all.

Quote[/b] ]it's the responsibility of the writer to make sure what he has written is understood in the way it was intended.

No it isn't - that's a physical impossibility. The writer can only do his best to write clearly and to a point. After that it's up to the reader to be competent enough to understand what is being said and to read it properly.

To say otherwise is illogical.

Quote[/b] ]3rd paragraph
An assumption made by you here on a person (developer) that you've never met or know nothing about. This is a confrontationary remark and could be interpreted as an insult.

No more than what Gil said about me could be taken as the same. I am responding here, not initiating. Please take off your one-sided blinders here and consider who talked to whom in this manner first. I am only responding to Gil.
Also consider taking my post as a whole, rather than in pieces.

Komoc, is right:

In order to keep this thread from being hijacked, I'm going to start a new thread entitled "Reading and Writing Comprehension" subtitled, English incompetent impolite twits who should be banned. Haha, half sarcasm.

Why banned, because they are screwing it up for the rest of the community. If you cannot post with the interest of the overall community ALWAYS in mind then you shouldn't be allowed to post. PERIOD

Those whose primary language is not English s/b given some leeway, in addition to guidence.

For those whose primary language IS English, let the hammer fall, preferably after fair warning.

I believe this is something to be discussed by the community and then action taken. This is the second such similar situation that has arisen. We need to come to a "dictated" consensus and move on.

Any comments or responses regarding the tone and/or tenor of "posts" put in the thread.

Give me a minute, after posting this to create the new thread.

Mods, if you believe the thread s/b in another forum please move it, thanks.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i dont want to interfer in this cosy chitchat about stats,

but whats wroing in lowering teh range of teh arba to a bit below of that of the archers?

if someone chooses arba vs archers he must come a bit closer to enemy.
its wise for him to defend his arbas against incomming horses.

the enemyarcher may, cuz of his bigger range, being able to target the defending troops.

and so on

whit this in a game u add a lot of dynamics in the shooting phase. players may tend to buy archers AND arba to keep the range advantage but also want the power of the arba....

DOC whats your view on this?


i can imagine that a projectile like an arba that shoots straigth outshoots a bow and equals a longbow....

anyone have any comments on this?

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (MagyarKhans Cham @ Nov. 11 2002,17:31)]Well written Toranaga, I must apologise. i am a simple messenger, loyal to our Great Khan, Khan of Khans but i am allowed to express my own ideas as well.

I also dont see why people care so much how i write things, i represent only myself. 1 single sole in this massive online experience. but i am willingly to learn from u, i am open minded.

And as long i stay within the bOrg rules i expect being able to post here. I am just balancing some of the posts here. If people post teh game totally suck than i will reply it doesnt and vice versa. I criticize posts if needed i will stimulate others.

I expect the bOrg representatives to warn me when i step out of line. And i dont believe that thsi place is made only for nice people with a continous happy view on things that are going on.

(looks around for his horse....)

Quote[/b] ]I also dont see why people care so much how i write things, i represent only myself. 1 single sole in this massive online experience.

People may not "care" what you write, BUT you MUST realize that there are those who WILL follow your lead.

YOU whether you realize it or not have a position of "responsibility" in the .org.

[Puzz3D]

Magyar,

A short range weapon should probably be compensated by greater kills/volley. However, if the kills/volley are increased too much, then premature routing of the target becomes a problem.

If horse archers are made 62% more accurate, 50% more powerful, 42% more ammo, greater range, are dirt cheap to upgrade the hth capability and are the fastest unit, then where is the weakness of this unit? It's a super unit with no anti-unit. These proposed changes to horse archers are dramatic to say the least.

[Cheetah]

Here are my ideas on MP balance:

Archers: I agree with longjohn, if you want strong archers then play early games. Don't expect archers to be competitive in late games.

Arbalasters: I agree with CBR, it would be nice if arbs would be restricted to the late era. This would increase the importance of x-bow units.

Horse Archers: Hm, I agree that these guys could be somewhat stronger but I disagree that they are useless. If there is one thing they are good for is to chase down routed units. I know this is not the role the mongol fans were expecting but it is still more than nothing. Especially in the light of the fact that units can be rallied pretty easily, so it is of great importance to finish off routed units. Accuracy and ammo could be increased but what is more important IMHO is an increase of moral. I mean these guys are supposed to be a kind of elite soldiers, at least battle hardened troops, and not peasants with a pitchfork, moreover they have the fastest horses, so why should they fear from anyone? Currently, with their shitty morale (-1 or something for an ordinary HA) you can hardly send a v0 HA behind enemy lines (or perhaps just I am not skilled enough ). These guys should be able to operate on their own (even at v0), so their base morale should be around 2 or 4 depending on the type of HA.

Cavalry: I am very happy with the changes that were made in the patch. Cavalry rules the field as it should in any medieval game Cav rushes can be countered but you should be sure that your spear unit meats the cav charge head on preferably in hold-hold formation. Note, that what we have got is exactly what we asked for We asked for spears to be pushed back by the force of the charge, we asked for spears to rout when flanked, we asked for spears to rout when hit during move, and we got all these nice changes In essence we asked for more vulnerable spear and we got it You cannot roam around freely any longer with your spear units. Also elite cavalry can be beaten, but as Polar remarked don't expect your average spearmen to do this job. You need elite spears (for example v3 -or at least v2- orderfoot or saracens) to beat the elite cavalry, and IMHO this is how it should be. All in all, I love the changes it makes the game much more fun for me

Halberdiers I like the fact that they have low morale I mean it would be too easy to use them if they had a higher morale. Currently you have a trade off: either you buy a few halberdiers with good morale or buy tons of halberdiers with poor morale. IMHO this is good.

Rout bug: It is not a bug it is a feature Some folks talk about chain routs as if it were a kind of an accident or chance event. It is neither, IMHO it is a question of skill and planning. Play AMP if you don't believe me and I am sure that Koc knows this very well. I don't find anything wrong with the fact that you can rout full units provided that they are surrounded or disorganised by routed allies, etc. Again it is a question of planning and skill, protect your flanks, protect your allies , don't send in your weakest troops first, etc. Moreover, on solution have been suggested several times: play higher florin games, around the 15000-20000 level. Though I prefer 11000-12000 florin games

Height bonuses: I can say little (nothing) about it since I usualy play flat maps.

All in all I would like to propose the following changes:
- restrict arbs to the late era
- increase horse archer morale and perhaps accuracy and ammo

further proposals (of somewhat experimantal nature):
- Restrict orderfoot and saracens to high/late games. This should increase the importance of archers in early games since both units are heavily armoured.
- Increase the anti-cavalry bonus of pikemen. Currently this unit is good for nothing. They are no good against infanatry, and high valour orderfoot or chiv.srg are just as good against cavalry as pikes (hm, I have to admit that I have not made any experiments so I could be wrong, please correct me if so). The idea is that pikes should be the pinacle of anit-cav units, so even though they would be still useles vs infantry they should be the ultimate choice when someone expects a cav heavy opponent.

[ElmarkOFear]

I believe the best way to make changes to stat files would be to pick a unit to change (just one unit). Make small changes then release it to the public. Let the public play the game for a week and give input if it is successful or not. Once it is deemed acceptable by most, move on to another unit doing the same thing. It seems that there are few units that need changing, so this process should not take long to get a really good final patch. Maybe we could start out with the Arbs, then move on to archer units, then to knights.
PS. Just for the record, I agree with Kocmoc that the "zones of influence" for morale are too large. I have seen allied units, in great position to flank an enemy, rout because another enemy player was approaching the allies flank from a distance. If the zones of influence were smaller, then you could get units in gaps of the enemy and actually use them the way they were intended. So Kocmoc has some very valid points, his method of presenting them needs some work and he needs to go into more detail, but you can believe that there is some validity to what he states.

TO MAGYA: We know you want the best for the game, but you and everyone else, need to stop pointing out the short comings of MP (since the developers have moved on to something else and it falls upon deaf ears) and try to come up with a public beta testing that will work for the majority of the MP community. I have noticed your last few posts these past few days have improved and I am very greatful for this, since many of us look up to you as one of the leaders of the community. Thank you dear friend; UglyElmo

[FasT]

i did a few test on the crossbows and find them very inafective
I know i dont know the game very well or have the feelin some of u do,but i did notice they dont kill very well for there price etc...

Tell me if i wrong...or maybe i testin them wrong?

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Well i predicted it would take time for most to see the shortcommings of teh game. before polishing my Khans ego I grant some time to all.

Furthermore I keep encouraging Kocmoc making some chances to teh stats.

To elmo, "our" statsmod updating process is one of small steps, step by steps. dont touch whats ok, just improve a bit whats wrong. an open process which will soon be viewable and interruptable at the totalwar assembly clan society forums.

to cheetah, if 15k-20k florins reflect the "old feeling" than why not upgrade the morale and play at 10k or even less. the many level 4 units dont leave room for highering and lowering valour in your same army.
concerning chainrouts, when i rout i want to know where what when. if i cant understand why units rout, over and over again than i cant speak of aa feature, i do speak of a bug (something wrong with the system that is). I have seen armies rout without a real reason. ofcourse there were enemy present and ofcourse units of an ally were routing and even perhaps its close to historical feeling BUT i play for tactical challenging battles, longlasting battles month after month.

to puzz3d, i agree with u that horsearchers shouldnt be overpowered. in teh end it must stay an art to use them wisely. how do we else divide the men from the boys?
imo whats wrong with this:

arba range A
horserachers range A + 1 bit
archers range A + 2 bit
longbows range A + 3 bit

but in any highly competetive games between equal highly skilled opponents the horearchers are close to useless. i think that they as well deserve an upgrade.

[longjohn2]

Hi Cheetah.
It's nice to see a post from someone who likes the changes :-).

I just thought I'd point out that the way upgrades for missile troops has been changed, so they upgrade based on a cheaper base than other units. ( basically the price of the missile weapon is removed before costing the upgrade ). So base horse archers are fairly scummy, but you can upgrade them cheapily.

BTW I rather agree with you about the availability of some of the troops in certain periods. Unfortunately at the moment period availability is determined by the needs of the SP game.

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

A MP only stat, could of course, if wanted, disable early units from the late era. That's listed in the unitstat.

About anything regarding availability can be edited, exceptions are swiss pike units. For some reason this unit doesn't listen to what's said in the stats. Hardcoded in the exe? The swisspike unit is available to Late HRE, but not in custom games and also not when HRE with a different color is used.

You could for example enable the napthathrower in early english armies and have it disabled for any other era/faction.

Disabling units from an era is divide et impera: 10 units are much easier to balance than 20. Just something that crossed my minds: lightly armoured and thus faster units in early and heavy armoured and slower units in late. The 'pro' of this is that you can make 3 games in one: Fast paced for those who love action and 'rush', medium speed and slower for those who want to outthink the enemy.
(This is of course already partly the case). It may be recommendable to shift a melee point to defense if you make a late era slow army in order to slow down the killing a bit too (a bit extra morale might also be useful). If you don't, it may be impossible to set up flankattacks.

[Kraxis]

I don't know if it has any impact here, but I drastically changed bow units.

First off I gave Longbows more range (7500) but that forced me to give them more velocity or else they would not fire (too high angle I guess). Then I upped their accuracy to 0.75 and lethality to 0.95 (after having run several tests the lower angle of the arrows caused lower killrates). Also, I noticed that Longbows have a reaload cycle of 4 as all other archers (changed to 3 so they would fire fast again). Given 56 arrows.

Then I changed mounted and sbows to 5500 in range and 48 arrows (but only to dedicated archers, in MP it should be all). Their accuracy is now 0.6 and 0.7 respectively and both lethality is at 0.75.

Also did various changes to javelins.

I have found that the increased range and losses (did tests and it only increased slightly, about 6% for sbows and mounted bows and 8% for Longbows) have forced me to actually fear many archers rather than think of them as easy pray. Though I hate how cavalry can run under the arrows.

What about Jannisaries they are High and not worth it... Fitting if archers are not supposed to be good outside Early but the Turks are supposed to be good with bows, so the changes make them viable in High if not Late.

What I wanted to say is this:

It might not be balanced but it is much better.

[+DOC+]

lol, LJ, i actually very much like the changes you implemented in the patch. The SP game is awesome and the cav are now the feared units they should have been.

As far as changes go, i couldn't really care that much. The things i've suggested regarding the projectiles.txt file are simply things i've subsequently implemented into my SP game. These are for my own personal flavour and whether they make it into MP or not i don't really care as for me MP is very much playable as it stands.

Sure it could do with a few adjustments, but is it worth it? Personally, while the GAs are bugged that to me is far more important a task to remedy.

Some of the others here are serious STW players who kind of hope that they can make MTW into a more advanced version of STW. MTW is not STW and i'm glad of that.

And by the way i hate those pesky horse archers ....

[DthB4Dishonour]

Hail everyone,

I do like most changes in patch . However with the quick routs it's hard to see many of the changes done to range units. I played a few games at around 12-15k in order for all to have a relatively decent army and not routers. IMHO I think:

Range: units did well and are nicely balanced when they have a chance to shoot with 10k quick routs they are easily caught up in the chain routs.

Cav Archers: I agree that they should have elite level morale which would allow them to be used as intended. (Lone units which harass enemy units from rear and flank). They should also be given better accuracy and some more ammo.

To those asking what is cav range anit unit......its other range units...with low armour cav range should lose every time to equal valor infantry range.

Regular Cav: I like the changes done to them....they are finally the elite units they are suppose to be. However they are not the uber units and still take skill to use well. I would not change them.

Artilery: They are what they are deadly weapons...however all skilled players know how to conter them. I wouldnt change them either.

Infantry: I like the balancing and the only problem I have is there peasant morale and quick routs.

Someone said something about a general +2 morale. I'm not experienced with stats. However if someone would email me directions on how to change them I would happily test this out. Or if someone (only vets that know me) would send me an exe.statswapper file I would also test it.

Also I would like to see a slightly more important height advantage...especially for range units. This would make the game more dynamic and fun. (like fighting for the hill on right in STW totomi map....how fun was that and how important was that hill and ridge.)

Like I said I'm not experienced with computers but I'm and smart and I'm dedicated to this game. I would happily learn from anyone who wishes to teach (I learn well from text also.....so I dont need someone holding my hand. If you guys point out sites where I can read on how to do it I will be appreciative, however I would need someone for occasional questions and periodic clarification.

Addy.......Paul_Cruz2001@yahoo

RTKPaul

"You dont win silver, you lose gold"

[Kocmoc]

DOC, i love STW and i love MTW

yes, sometiems we jsut speak about problems and not about the great things and the nice ideas which the devs implented.

like the units who has bonusses vs the armoured units or catapults more than 5 rows ......

i just go along and see that compared to STW we have less tactical possibilitys
i dont want make MTW to a better STW, but we can easy see that some balancing need to be done, we jsut have to look for a way which we all can live with.

this game has the big base to offer us so many ways so many different setups and a lot of special use of this.
but now we ahve jsut strong cav and a bit less strong h2h units and very weak missleunits so we search for the strongest army and we can easy say the best is, if u dont buy shooters, maybe jsut 15 or 14 units but this untis are all cav and h2h. thats it ....this isnt fun no tactics just fast forward moving attacking and join the next game and after some games u lose interest....

we need counter units and units wich can counter the counter units. we need missles wich can hurt but not spoil the fun or turn the game into a misslewar.

u dont like cavarcher, np just use some couterunits and kill them....u need time and patience to kill cavarcher but if u know how they are lessdangerous.

koc

[Kocmoc]

paul, u can email me or u can dl some stats wich already relfect the +2moral.

here is my email


mike.friedrich@primacom.net

koc

[Vinsitor]

Yes finally the patch made the game very good, very good job, I'm happy for the changes

I like to play it at 12000 Florins, because it impose a choise about what troop has to be best upgraded.

I agree to don't make Madieval "a Shogun with different sprites": arbalests aren't muskets, medieval soldiers are heavier armuored than samurais and cav ruled in medieval...

If some changes can be done, I sugges to lower longbows cost or improve their stats, they ruled in the middle age or I'm wrong?

[Dionysus9]

The greatest thing about cav-archers is that they are hard to kill. If you can sneak a Alan (or YariCav&#33 around their rear (about 135+ degrees) and then charge them, they will skirmish right toward your main force. Youch.

Otherwise, you can come at them from two 180 degree angles and they skirmish right into your other unit. Again, youch.

And so there is always this flank manuevering that goes on with cav-archers. Sometimes the main conflict starts because of an attempt to outflank a single pesky cav-archer. This dynamic is almost totally missing from MTW because cav-archers can safely be ignored. Plink Plink. Their arrows just bounce off of armor.

Cav-archers need to be improved in MTW-- I'm pretty sure of it. At least in MP. They should be given a lethality bonus for flank-firing on a stationary unit (or inflict large morale penalties when doing so). Imagine you are standing facing forward with shield and chainmail armor. You are presenting your right side to horsearchers who are no more than 30 yards away. They are raining arrows down upon you, yet you have been ordered to stand there facing forward and ignore them. Do you think you could just ignore volley after volley of arrow, without using your shield or otherwise even acknoledging their presence? I suppose....maybe... if you knew the arrows couldnt hurt you, you might stand as ordered and ignore them. But at the very least you'd think you would be tempted to dodge some arrows or at least pay attention to them (i.e. morale penalty). I for one would be worried...

And if the answer is --bah pesky horsearchers, I can ignore them. Then I think we do have a problem with their lethality.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

morale +2 feels a lot better, almost like STW

[Kocmoc]

DOC,

ur correct with the power

the accuracy for my mounted bows are 0,6 and i changed the reloadtime to 3 now. i will give every mountedbow 40 arrows.

i changed after some tests the range of units like arba, they have 5000 now, we testes in a longbow vs arba fight and at the start the longbows kill a lot and bring the arba down to around 40 men, after they are out of ammo, the arba will win (ofcourse).

so i took some power from the arba and u are able now to use the stronger cavarcher without to fear any longhits from the arba units.

the longbow was a strong unit as this time, they are now the longrange unit and refkect the power of the historical times

i thougth about a strong shortrange unit wich could defend u better vs an upcoming rush.
its jsut an idea till now and im not sure if i use a current unit, like the crossbow or if i give every faction the handgunners and use this unit...still not sure

but if i use the crossbow, (problem here is the speed of the bullets and the following velocity) i maybe take to many friendly kills myself...but if i take them i lower the range too 3000, give them less ammo, increase the reload time and accuracy, the lethality as well.

this means a fast, shortrangekiller with less ammo, if u will use this unit to rush with them, i wont work, coz they will be very weak themself....

so if someone cant face a rush and fear it and want a "slow" battle he take this unit and can easy create a hotspot by the rusher

the handgunner could do this job as well....

koc

[TenkiWarPRIEST]

Quote[/b] ]Yup, absolutely, i've been hoping for this to be added from the very beginning. Otherwise it becomes a necessity to play high florin games. AT the moment chain routing can be a problem and battles can become a bit of a "who can cause the first unit to rout wins" affair.

I agree X3 2 years. When Mongol Invasion came out Army's fought almost to their entire units were dead. Now that was a battle. Then "some winers" screamed I can't chain route anymore, this game is not realistic, I wanna chain route or not play. The patch that followed totally gave them their wish. It was STW all over again.. slight flank to one unit the whole army heads for the hills screaming in panic... Give the Priest a break.

I WANT WAR Battles fought out to the end not Booo and Run episodes that caused alot of my Clan to leave. It got too easy. WAR FIght you Run YOur family will pay for it when you get home Give us Moral

I mean look at the situition an opposing force wants to take possession of your home, family, lands, cows, and you think they wouldn't Stand to the last to defend that, then your either brought up from a weak heritage, or you want a easy game.

[Kocmoc]

i full agree with u priest, plz mail me ur email or step by the forum, so i can send u info and input about our changes and i hope u give ur input as well.


my email


mike.friedrich@primacom.net

koc

[Puzz3D]

TenkiWarPRIEST,

Turning morale "off" in MTW gives exactly same morale as WE/MI v1.0 had with morale "on". You don't need a new stat for that.

[Lethal DRB]

Guys:
I will gonna play fully from now on but I didnt have the time this week
Hope I can help u next week

DRB

[MagyarKhans Cham]

DRB als iemand vraagt of je Khan je hier gestuurd hebt, zeg dan maar ja. want als je nee zegt wordt je niet vertrouwd.

vraag wel eerst aan je broertje hoe je nieuwe stats, in welke directory moet gooien

HooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWLL

[Orda Khan]

Quite right Bacchus

........Orda

[AMPage]

I wish we had an online unit stat swapper. Which would transfer from the host to the joining players any new stats. The host would name his stats and the players joining the game could choose to have them transfered or leave the game. So when you host a game you also get to pick which stats you want to use. Maybe the regular stats, your custom made stats, or someone elses that have been transfered to you.

Just something that would be really helpful with this, but it's not likely to happen. Oh well

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well thats funny Amp, i just adviced that in an other ythread and yes it is most likely it would not happen. but we have been surprised by the devs before. u never know.