Simply Irresistable

[Puzz3D]

To balance any false impression given by the LaPucelle replay that LadyAn can only play a support role, here is a replay, logfile included, in which she leads the attack, and succeeds in personally dispatching all 4 enemy generals. A tour de force against experienced opposition.

http://www.3ddownloads.com/strateg....ble.zip

[bosdur]

A good replay

A unit mismatch scenario here, fighting JHIs, one of the best anti-cav units, with 12 horsies. None of amps unit are really ideal to fight the jhis. Even the routed saracen infantry on annie's right flank didnt bring any chain rout effect to the one jhi fighting some 4 cavalries. Annie made a little blunder with her ghazi infantry on the left though, it was spearheading the attack ,instead of the muwahid foot. Maybe if amp charged that ghazi earlier it could tip the battle, or maybe not.

Anyways well played annie , you prove that amp ....um ... is overrated , maybe if i saw this earlier i would vouch for u for most feared .

[Tempiic]

Cannot open file: it does not appear to be a valid archive.

If you downloaded this file, try downloading the file again...


After 10 attempts, still same... So i was wondering if you were so kind to send it to me by email Puzzy (yes you have my email addy)

[Shahed]

I have the same problem.
Puzz could you email it to me too, please.

[Alrowan]

and me

[CBR]

Works fine for me


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Created that archive with Winzip 8.1.

[baz]

works ok with me just watched it, those JHI were very good i think one unit took on about 4 cav units and lived to tell the tale, well played An

[Swoosh So]

Ill have to take a look ladyan wanted some team games with me but i was always going into games or stuff Did i know u from shogun lady ann? Are you the player who used to play sometimes with me and elmooooo ?

[LadyAnn]

Hi Swoosh,

I was not very good in STW (goes as anniep) and perhaps that's why I had a lot of room to improve. I didn't like the guns and the monks (although I found the pav.arb. are serving the same purpose here. Good thing that pav. arb. fire at slower rate and couldn't cut down whole unit) and I had the bad tendency to attack at the wrong moment. I also had a lot of lag with my old computer.

Perhaps I played with many of you, but wouldn't leave any good impression, I don't think.

To all:

You are so kind and I am sure I will be receiving a lot of 1x1 challenge.

About the replay:
I did make a lot of mistakes in that game (the Ghazi for one). I sent to over the right to block Elmo's help and I forgot (actually even didn't know) that ghazi are that fast. I was too busy on the left side to pay attention to the ghazi and couldn't stop them midway. I also learn from that game that Saracens are cowards and must bring along general with them.

Anyways, an annecdote has to be added: I picked a very anti cav army after waiting for a bit to see what is Amp color and after found out am facing an Amp's spanish, I went for 5 JHI (disregarding the cost issue).

Annie

[AMPage]

I let LadyAnn win...honest.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]I also learn from that game that Saracens are cowards and must bring along general with them.

Errrmm?

Poor Crand is now very baffled... what does bringing along the general have to do with the Saracens' cowardice? I was told by the Master of Statistics (Yuuki... ya told me this, right?) that the general does _not_ boost the morale of nearby units in MP.

Or did ya mean something else? And anyways, could someone clarify the "encouraged by the general" -issue for me? Please?

[LadyAnn]

General didn't boost morale? I thought it doesn't give extra morale boost in SP because you have high rank general. In MP, all generals have same rank of 0.

But the proximity of the general is important, I still believe, especially to the Saracen and the Chiv.Sgt. or any morale 0 starting units.

I am hoping to be proven wrong, but I found:
1. Saracens will rout when exhausted (even they are still full staff and the army as a whole was winning) if they don't "see" the general.

2. I now have the habit of bringing along the general with the Saracens and found they don't run as often.

Please tell me I am wrong, because I want to use my generals for different purpose than being a cheerleader and a target.

Annie

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Crand,

A 0 star general improves moral for nearby unit by 0.

Not completly negligible, but almost

But maybe I got it wrong too...

Louis,

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Gracious Lady

You got me on this one.

Yes Saracen have notoriously low morale (but in line with other spear unit). Exhausted gives an extra -8...

They are prime target for valor increase.

I try to target 4/6 for moral as a minimum (doable wo too much money) but for some special unit (I don't care about HA morale).

LadyAnn, maybe your saracen are routing less because they have better cohesion with your general around? With such a valliant unit close, it happens they get flanked less?

Correction; I think the general unit still get a morale bonus.

Louis,

[LadyAnn]

My belief, and it is seriously challenged here, is that proximity of general gives morale bonus to Saracens, not much, just enough to prevent them to rout if exhausted.

I already know Saracens have start morale of 0, and I think it is very imprudent to bring Saracens of valor 2 or below to the battle field, no matter which level of florins.

I try to bring Saracen of val4 to battle field if possible, but sometimes have to settle for val3. And with val3 saracens, one must always watch for the fatigue level.

After baffling with the fact that my saracens run more often than got killed, even at val4, I started to bring general close to them and my general moves whereever my saracens move. I found they rout less, for whatever the effect that brings. I still am attribute it to the fact my general is around.

There is a reciprocal benefit of that: my general gets some extra protection from cav raid in the end game, and got killed less often. In the end game, the number 1 worry is fresh cavalry.

Annie

[bosdur]

I would ask for CA to address this issue, does general in proximity give morale bonus for MP battles ? I personally dont believe there's difference in the MP code compared to SP and think that an's experience with the general is due to randomness factor. I.e moving general different way might affect how the result are calculated by the game engine.

[LadyAnn]

Reading the thread about morale penalty (is there a place where I can find morale bonus?) I think that perhaps I did have wrong impression with saracen encouraged by general.

Now I think by having the general nearby, a cav, it makes the Saracens think one of their flank is protected, stop them from running when they feel lonely...

But a clarification of this may help, because this game is about knowing when and how units got routed.

Annie
ps.: Amp: you should let me win more often, it is a chivalric thing to do

[Alrowan]

finally worked

[Crandaeolon]

Here's a copy-paste.

COMBAT MODIFIERS

***MORALE***

States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6 (the point at which units rout is -16, IIRC. The units will keep routing unless they reach -6 morale. -Cran's note)

Negative

Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
One flank threatened: -2
Two flanks threatened: -6
Charged in flank: -4
Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missle fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear)
Unit is Very Tired: -3 (Hmm... there was a typo somewhere in this list, might've been here. Could be -2, can't remember and I'm too busy to check the other thread right now. -C )
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)

Positive

Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars

***COMBAT***

Formations

+3 atk, -3 def for wedge formation
+2 def, -2 atk for hold formation

Spear/pikes

+1 per rank to def (up to 2 for spear, 4 for pike)
+1 per 2 ranks to atk
+1 per rank to atk when charging
No rank bonuses in forests (may be bugged)

Terrain

+1 atk, +1 def for camels in desert
-2 atk, -2 def for cavalry in forests
Bonus to atk for being uphill (depends on height)
Penalty to def for being downhill (depends on height)

Fear of camels

+4 def for camels against horses
+2 atk for camels against horses

Positional

+5 atk for flank attack
+7 for rear
+2 for charging into flank/rear
+6 to atk when 'pushing back' the enemy
-5 def when squeezed too tight

Exhaustion

-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted

Routing

+4 atk against routing enemies
-8 def if routing

[Puzz3D]

And the answer is.....I think.....

The general in MP has zero stars, so you get nothing from that. I did some tests in custom battle, and I found that the general's unit gives the same amount of morale support to friendly units as does a regular unit. That is from directly behind or close to the flank. A units has 3 flanks, two sides and the rear. It's about +2 morale for one flank protected. It's +4 morale for two flanks protected. Since my LAN is back up, I will be able to make some better tests on this. The +2 morale for the general being in the unit is to the unit itself. Cran, that is a typo. Very tired imparts -2 morale.

Spears do have fragile morale, and need that flank support in battle. They are relatively expensive, so large valor upgrades on spears ends up giving you weaker swords and cav. While spears were too strong for their cost in v1.0, they have probably suffered too much in v1.1. I think a return to v1.0 pricing is warranted. Some morale boost might also be in order because a defensive unit should stand and fight for a decent length of time otherwise it looses its value as a tactical unit.

As to the reply, the Ghazis served their purpose in disrupting the enemy. If they are held back, AMP's cav could surround the Janissary heavy inf and they would take more casualties from the pav arbs. As it was, AMP's flanking cav on the left is itself flanked by the Janissary heavy inf. If I had advanced sooner in support of LadyAn's right flank, her Ghazi and Scaracen may not have routed, although, I would have been taking Elm head-on then, and the question then becomes, can I hold Elm long enough for LadyAn to flank him? I do think my advance was late for a 15K game. The boldness of LadyAn's attack caught me by surprise. The only communication between my allies during the entire battle was when LadyAn said, "This is fun".

[LadyAnn]

OK, I was wrong, thanks Crandaeolon, Puzz3D for correcting. I was just observing that my spears rout less and didn't realize it could be any other unit.

My weakness during game was talking to allies, as my allies constantly complain about that. In this particular game, I had a good excuse: didn't have a second to press 'y'and type when there are 12 cavs advancing steadily and 4 pav-arb are at shooting range, all that in the hand of an excellent general. Yuuki read my moves, good thing he did.

Annie

[ElmarkOFear]

I found out how AMP felt when my armies would rout through his LOL I noticed, not only did LadyAn rout AMP but, she herded his high val horsies my way and steamrolled over my army too I was just trying to get out of the way and save a few units. LOL I told AMP to come in behind me at start but he charged LadyAn anyways. I can imagine his laughter as my army followed his off the map :P hehe PS. I still think cav are too strong That was for Yuuki

[Puzz3D]

Well Elm, cav isn't too strong in your hands. Anyway, count the little flags on those four HANDGUNNERS That's 15 combat points and 12 morale for a lousy 947 florins. Makes Byz Inf look overpriced by comparision. See how it takes three of our units to kill each handgunner? Those four handgunners accounted for over half your kills. BTW, that's not just any cav on your right. It's lancers in lines as long as you can make without going to loose formation in the hands of the acknowledged master of the technique.

Note: This game was played at 12k not 15k as I previously stated. LadyAn and her allies were the defenders in this battle.

[ElmarkOFear]

you spend only 945 florins on your handgunners and they will die easily hehe If you go equal florins, byz infantry win every time. Lancers do as well. The reason the Handgunners account for 1/2 my kills is because those were the only units i had that could go hand to hand. The rest were all weak missile units.
As for the game in question: AMP played that game badly since he had no way of flanking LadyAn with his lancers in long line formation. LadyAn did the right thing and kept to the side of the map. If AMP had his army in the middle then you would have become the quick victim of a cav rush and LadyAn would have had a slower time killing me.

[Puzz3D]

Oh yes, the hangunners were v4 a1 for 1280 florins weren't they. Thats 16 combat points. Let's see, v4 Byz inf at 1461 florins has 14 combat points and morale of 8. The hangunner is 44% better in hand-to-hand and has +4 morale over the Byz inf which is 66% larger. So, I agree that could be a close call there except those hangunners will fight down to about 15 men where the Byz inf won't. The best inf I had were two 40 man, 732 florin v0 w1 chiv foot knights which have 11 combat points and pick up 2 more with their armor pierce against a handgunner. Hence the need to use two or even three units against each hangunner. My six expensive spears (1152 florins) only managed 145 kills for an average of 24 kills each.

Well Elm, the steppe maps maximize the efficiency of cavalry. Even so, all cav in a 1v1 is not an automatic win. What AMP does is use the morale system very effectively to rout any number of opponents. This technique is less effective at higher morale. I don't think AMP played badly in this battle. LadyAn played brilliantly She did not hug the edge of the map as there is still space there, but we all know the edge offers a flank protection. AMP knows this, and still showed up with 12 cav. Important factors to success like knowing the map conditions, astute army choice, knowing your location on the battlefield before hand, correct use of units, seizing the initiative, being unpredictable are all exhibited by LadyAn.

Observe MizuYuuki using units incorrectly such as standing on top of LadyAn's ranged unit with my arb, reacting to her attack late, charging v0 knights into the fray which rout and impart a morale penalty to LadyAn's units, chaotic inf advance, taking too many spear units, reckless use of the general and failing to backstab the Gothic knight general near the end to name the more obvious ones. BTW Elm, thanks for routing your camel unit with your naptha guys.