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Thread: The MI balance question

  1. #1
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    This post is based totally on analysis of other posts on this forum (most attention has been paid to the 'tested' accounts.

    In classic STW, a decent opponent will generally attempt to flank units all the time, the problem with missile units is that they need to be micro-managed, it appears that Skirmishers ARE 'deadly' in a frontal attack scenario (and they even destroy units in the trees) but I would hazard a guess that an army like Maggy's 'fun' army could make mincemeat of it - even in hands like mine, Cavalry Archers could pepper and withdraw from these units (espeacially on the bigger x-pac maps) untill they run out of ammo - or near to it - and I have visions of Cavalry charging in 2 or 3 ranks at the Skirmishers (could someone tell me how the 2-rank thing works?) then when the cavalry are engaged the foot-soldiers come in when the 'armies of rome' are in contact and unable to fire...

    that is just another scenario...I think it is an interesting trap for the Japanese, do they take a 'solid' army of high armour/honour YA to withstand the Monguls, spurning cavalry against the superior mongul horse or do they take a flexible 'light' army to 'dance like butterflies' and 'sting like bees' against the 'pseudo-romans' which was after all how the period of the Roman Legion was finished in reality...

    The answer of course is to aim for a balance that is relativly stable against both without gaining an unassailable advantage or giving one away, but that is easier said than done, try putting a 'classic' STW army together that can defeat Maggys standard army and then can turn around and slaughter a monk or no-dachi rush...the extra mobility needed to fight maggy on his level is more succeptable to monks, spears, and guns.

    The choice left you in the 'original' was in my opinion to aim for one of three 'optimum' psitions

    - an army of light mobility (difficult to control)
    - an army of sheer power (sledgehammer and inflexible)
    - a perfectly balanced force (holy grail - almost impossible to find, if found - far more powerful than the other two optimums)

    In multiplayer Shogun, there are six basic elements to the tactical battle: Shock, Mobility, Armour, Morale, Firepower, Fatigue

    every army is obviously a compromise on the above, the Korean Skirmishers appear to hold a moderate shock value, foot-soldier speed, moderatly high armour, (no information on morale), and massive close-range firepower, fatigue not being important here

    from this we see that the optimum army to face them would consist of a highly mobile, long range firepower army (to play at weakness, but that kind of army is oh so difficult to control effectivly) or an army with the same pre-requesites to attempt to batter it into submission, unfortunatly the Japanese do not have that option, unless high armour Naginata are 'safe' against the Skirmishers.

    The Japanese have a choice, fortunatly their saviour comes in unlikely form - Naginata Cavalry, able to face off against Mongul Heavy Cavalry and quick enough to attack Skirmishers w/out significant losses (if used in lines) in that unit the Japanese have the apparant answer to the question,

    If facing a 'balanced' Mongul army which contains both 'bogey-men' (MHC and KR) in quantity couldn't the Japanese therefore produce their own 'bogey man' in the form of an army dominated by Naginata Cavalry?

    That is the point here, in discussing the two 'unbalanced' units of the game and then settling ourselves down saying 'its fine - they can be effectivly countered' surely if we can find a unit which can successfully counter both - we find the real 'uber-unit'...'No!' you rightly answer, Naginata Cavalry are too easily killed, their armour is too low, they are more expensive than Skirmishers, they are succeptable to Spears, so what? the answer to an army of NC is an army of korean spear-men?

    so we find why I love Shogun, search for a unit that is 'unbalanced' we keep finding that units are better than that unit until we find the greatest humbler of all, korean peasents being better than the 'best' unit...just like in the original game, we have a beautiful circle, just a different one...
    YS beat YA
    ND beat YS
    NAGI beat ND
    WM beat NAGI
    HC beat WM
    YA beat HC

    and this is why we have a perfectly balanced game and no ground to argue in my opinion...

    feedback please...agree or not?
    Have you seen the fnords?

  2. #2

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    my first concern is the morale thing we are duscussing elsewhere. after that is changed the way it was or somethjing in between than we can talk about optimizing unit stats.

    what i dislike is 60 mhcav slaughtering 60jcav with a 4:1 kill ratio. both units cost the same and that is plain stupid.

    mongols werent that much better fighters, it were different parameters that gave them the edge.
    quote:I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well

  3. #3
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    oh boy, I was trying to stay OUT of the morale thread
    Have you seen the fnords?

  4. #4

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    Great post! Its nice to see someone try to put it all together for the benefit of the community.

    That said - I have to disagree with one thing- Yari Ashigaru will not beat Heavy Cav - mongol or japanese. Not if honor/weapon/armor are equal. YS can beat MHC and JHC by spending the difference in cost on armor and weapons. Yari Ashigaru are the true "cannon fodder" unit, and they stand no chance against a Mongol H2H or Mobile unit. That is one reason they are not available to be produced during the Mongol campaign.

    You are right tho - the game is decently balanced as far as unit strengths. Morale being a different issue altogether. Since morale is equally flawed across the board, its not the issue here. Each unit has a counter, although Naginata Cavalry do seem to be the most capable of the Japanese units, while the mongol's are tied between MHC and MKSk for most effective unit.

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  5. #5
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    You are right, of course - I think I was just being dramatic for effect, however YA still do an in-ordinate amout of damage for the cost...but then they would, being spears
    Have you seen the fnords?

  6. #6
    Gifted Dilettante Member DragonCat's Avatar
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    Great Post, Whitey.

    Here is the best balanced Mongol army I have found to date for MY play style.

    I have an 8000k Mongol army I am very fond of so far, though it has been beaten by very good Japanese players.

    3MHC, one of whom is Taisho with 2 extra honor
    4 K spearmen, 2 K guardsmen, 2 K Skirm one with extra armor (few koku left over)
    5 MLC

    I left out thunderbombers because I am REALLY bad at using them effectively.

    The skirmishers must be protected- I usually let spearmen or guards engage and then bring in skirmishers behind the spearment to fling their javelins.

    I bring all the MLC up to pepper the enemy. I usually get one or two no dachi units that chase them all over the map, slowing dying to arrow attrition.

    I use the MHC to counter any Japanese Cav, and for repeated charges at their flank or rear.

    Very important to neutralize the ashiguru crossbowmen.


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