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Thread: Xbowmen - nominated for least appreciated unit...

  1. #1

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    You know.. after FINALLY winning a mongol campaign on expert, I have found out a MAJOR bit of info - those cheap little ashigaru units that most ppl don't use cuz they rout quick and are - well - ashigaru.... surprise - they are KEY to stomping the crud outta the golden horde. The little buggers are quite tough against arrows, and on a hill have as good (or better) of a range as the cav archers at the bottom shooting at them. Combine that with the fact that they gain honor quicker than samurai units and that they are bloody hard hitters makes them a bane to the horde. You can't JUST use xbowmen, but if you have 4 or 6 yari sams to get their back, they won't rout on ya and you can put them in hold mode and the nothing can touch em. The best a unit did was a group of skirmishers who were able to fire one small salvo at my xbowmen before breaking - seems they lost 2/3 of their strength getting in range. The only mongol unit not outright eaten alive by these cheap little buggers are mongol Heavy cav... and 4-6 upgraded yari can and will take any MHC apart that the horde decides to bring to the party. Especially if you can fight downhill! 8-)

    so - for 100 koku a pop - these guys are an investment that cant be beat. Back em up with a few sam units to help their morale, keep em away from heavy cav and the horde will break on you like the tide on a reef. Of course - armor upgrades only make em tougher....

    On expert, just because of these little guys, the mongols never got past the westernmost island except for some northern landings. Which thanks again to the packing farmers of the west I had enough of an army to contain those 2 landings quickly. Less than 5 years from start to finish - the game was won...

    To give credit where it is due however, the other secret lies in emissaries.... since you can use them to bribe Mongol armies! Who said you can't fight Mongol vs Mongol????
    ROFL!

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    BSM_Skkzarg
    "A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
    BSM_Skkzarg
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  2. #2

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    I think that your vision of them might be at least a little warped because of the increase in honor that the AI gets on the harder difficulty levels.
    My motto: Be sharp, not
    well-rounded.

  3. #3

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    Yep, I've been a closet freak of the AX. Between slow firing rate and higher ammo capacity, they are the gift that keeps on giving, especially in those defensive battles. You are absolutely correct, keep some spears handy to keep the horsies at bay. I also like to have some Japanese cav around, YC if I can get them, CA if I cannot. However, like NI, you must count them as expendable assets that you can replace since a charge to cover your lines may result in the gutting of the unit.

    As for the emissaries....hmmmmm.....double hmmmmm.....I think I might have something to do as soon as Bozo the Daiymo dies, I'm trying to see if I can replicate the rebellion bug and also prevent it.

  4. #4

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    On defense I rarely use Cav. Its a personal choice since they are bloody useful when the other guy runs, since you can charge and do massive damage to him. On the other hand, I let him rout, run and reform, charge me again and re-rout. Rinse and repeat....
    As long as you rotate out of ammo troops you will still get a 5-1 kill ratio. So you can get more missilers in those limited 16 slots


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    BSM_Skkzarg
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    BSM_Skkzarg
    "ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
    "ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

  5. #5
    Member Member Anssi Hakkinen's Avatar
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    As I've said since long before the expansion was released: the AX are simply a low-tech version of guns, and should be no less appreciated. (Apart from the fact that they don't produce morale penalty.)
    "It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this".
    - Yamamoto Tsunetomo: Hagakure

  6. #6
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    I still wish they were normal archers. Just the same, what everyone has said about them is true. They are very useful and can be relied on to kill many Mongols.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  7. #7
    Member Member Pachinko's Avatar
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    I wish..wish...The 13th century was almost CA's! There no Ashi....

    There should be a 16th century should be Ashi Archers!! Btw the Historcallycorrectly the Sengoku Era.....Yes,I know...

    P.
    Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.

  8. #8
    Member Member Pachinko's Avatar
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    Good golly..My reply is kinda must up. Sorry.

    The 13th centry was almost Calvary Archers. This is a history correctly. There is NO Ashi spearmen.

    Ashigari Archers was a skimishing...... That was a 16th century. By then the Samurai was basically no Archers! Only the Ashi Archer.

    P.
    Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.

  9. #9
    Member Member Yoshitsune's Avatar
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    True, Pachinko, 13th Century Japan was dominated by heavily armored horse archers. But each cavalryman would usually take 2 or 3 foot retainers or attendants armed with naginata or bow. They would be fast and lightly armored like the later ashigaru but didn't form separate, drilled units like ashigaru. It might be difficult (and undesirable to some) to simulate 13th C style samurai warfare. Typically, 'units' would be clan-based rather than by troop-type and would be a mixture of horse and foot - the latter running behind ready to dodge between the horses to help their mounted liege-lord in melee.

    One thing however; there WERE warrior monks at the time of the Mongol Invasions and I wish they had been included. They weren't much in evidence at the historical battles at Hakata Bay but they would have been ready to defend their temples had the invaders forged across Japan. WM should never have been as powerful as they were in the original game though...

  10. #10
    Member Member Anssi Hakkinen's Avatar
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    So give me another spoiler, please - was I right with my speculation that the final battle of the Kublai Khan campaign would be a Mongols vs. Monks battle? Seeing as it takes place at Mount Hiei?
    "It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this".
    - Yamamoto Tsunetomo: Hagakure

  11. #11
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Very excellent point about the retainers on foot, Yoshitsune. I believe it was common practice in the 16th century also with the yari replacing the lord's bow. Simulating it would require a hybrid unit type composed of both horse and foot with maybe a 1:5 ratio or so.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  12. #12
    Member Member Pachinko's Avatar
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    Nelson and Yoshitsune, Your right.

    Hopefully I can Mod the game. Im trying the mod for Ashi-spearman. And the Samarai slash Ashi-Archer.

    Btw I love that Nagi-horseman. :D
    Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    I find the little bastids quite usefull, actually...

    (The Crossbow peasants, that is)

    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  14. #14

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    Indeed they are.
    Of course - I must admit - BN are also highly effective. To be honest - i may post a ranking of most valuable units for feedback.

    ------------------
    BSM_Skkzarg
    "A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
    BSM_Skkzarg
    "ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
    "ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

  15. #15
    Member Member Warmaker's Avatar
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    I've learned to appreciate the AX. Several of these very cheap units with YS to protect them are a decent, cost effective force. Works best on the defense IMO.

    The thing I've noticed that casualties inflicted by the AX can be quite nasty, esp. with multiple AX nearby. The way things are with morale, low quality units like KS and such will break quite easily from these ranged attacks. Send in those YC from the flanks and cut off and trample the running cowards...

    Also, the AI MHC does not like AX units and will try quite hard to remove them since AX can actually inflict pretty good casualties on them if left unmolested. The AX serve as good MHC bait for your YS to gain some quick, easy honor...

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    There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

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    Member Member Yoshitsune's Avatar
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    A question; anybody tried modding the ashi x-bows to ashi archers by altering the first line of that troopstats file?? (from a Brit who's going shopping for the x-pack tomorrow...)

    [This message has been edited by Yoshitsune (edited 08-25-2001).]

  17. #17
    Member Member Yesugey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Xbowmen - nominated for least appreciated unit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshitsune View Post
    A question; anybody tried modding the ashi x-bows to ashi archers by altering the first line of that troopstats file?? (from a Brit who's going shopping for the x-pack tomorrow...)

    [This message has been edited by Yoshitsune (edited 08-25-2001).]
    Good thinking, replacing Xbows with regular archers and not produce them would be more historically accurate way to play the game.

    Because with them, as all of you guys agree, you can decimate any Mongol Horde. I need a huge struggle, lose half of the lands and only then win the campaign.

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