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Thread: Sad discovery about new morale system

  1. #1

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    I conducted morale tests on my LAN with the old STW and the new WE games. I took Honor=0 yari ashigaru arranged 10x6 deep onto the green map in fine weather. I tested single pairs of units, and measured distance by drawing out a third unit between them, and counting men without releasing the left mouse button.

    The units are initially fresh when at a great distance from an enemy unit. In the old STW, the YA units become "uncertain" at a distance of 43 when facing each other. If a unit exposes it's flank, it will go to "wavering" at a distance of 33.

    In the new WE, the YA units always show "steady" when face-to-face all the way down to a distance of 1. A unit with exposed flank also shows "steady" all the way down to distance of 1 from the enemy unit. These are H0 YA! The weakest morale unit except for the xbowmen who are 1 point weaker.

    As a first guess, I lowered the morale of YA by 8 points in TroopStat making them -12, and I hit it dead on. The YA went to "uncertain" at a distance of 43 when face-to-face just as in the old STW. However, I then tried the flanking test, and I was stunned. NO EFFECT! The YA with exposed flank just went to "uncertain" at a distance of 43, and never went to "wavering" even if the enemy unit approached to within a distance of 1. I repeated this several times.

    (Edited incorrect conclusion due to not lowering the morale enough.)

    I tested for the auto-rout bug at the end of my morale testing, and sure enough it's there. About 10 moves away (not stacked with SHFT-click either), and the YA routs with full 60 men and cannot be rallied.

    Seriously, the game is very much rock, paper scissors now. It's closer to your typical RTS game in the way you handle the units. I hope CA/DT will restore this great lost feature in a patch.

    MizuYuuki ~~~
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    [This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-26-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-26-2001).]

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  2. #2
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    here here
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  3. #3
    Member Member Jpf's Avatar
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    I think that the effect of flanking is VERY important in STW.
    If the morale effect has been removed then it is disappointing to say the least, however what I didn't like in the first game was a whole unit of Yari/Archer Cavalry routing because I exposed their flank too many times in an effort of drawing in the enemy

  4. #4

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    Jpf,

    If you were using low honor CA then that's the problem. They have to be boosted up if you want to use them like that. However, you'll also encounter the auto-rout bug/feature if you move a unit back and forth, and it doesn't matter how high it's honor is. This happenes in the new game as well. I saw MLC take off with 53 men left at the beginning of a battle just from moving them around.

    MizuYuuki ~~~
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  5. #5

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    u right Puzz

    especially when u take into account the strength of units like h0 skirmishers, teh best value for money unit. since they will always stand firm u would buy h0, but h0 are deadly effective as h5 or whatever.

    just by returning to the old morale system (or a big step towards it) will reduce the strength of h0 troops.

    for me i think a morale option button is best way to go so it wont affect SP and we can have old morale in MP.

    keep testing buddy, perhaps can u type some summary in our Patching forum...?
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  6. #6
    Member Member Lord Aeon's Avatar
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    LOL, why so sad?

    *to music*
    "Put on a smile and cheeeeer up, put on a happy face!"

    Everything's gonna be alright, man. Let's all please just give the devs enough time to work on it. I'm sure they're doing so right now... this is obviously something that most people want changed, and, to prevent the ensuing suicide attempts if it doesn't, i'm sure a patch for this will be out sooner than later.

    Buck up, dude.

    P.S. "The adverse effect on morale by flanking has been removed from the game."

    Ummm.... not sure we're in agreement there. I've done some tests myself, and the morale hit is definitely still there.

    The rout-bug thing you tried with the Ashigaru... you might want to try that with a unit that doesn't start the match with a morale penalty, and keep said unit closer to the daimyo. Don't mean no harm; just trying to help.

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  7. #7
    Member Member celtiberoijontychi's Avatar
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    No flanking penalty?

    TAAAAAARGEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTT !!!
    Come here explain THIS !

    I can't believe they've destroyed the game .
    Gloria y honor al Clan Celtiberos
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  8. #8
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    What? Man this game was made to sell for newbies and all our excitement was never took in consideration.

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    Member Member TakeshidaSo's Avatar
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    By the way, Yuuki, thank you very much for your extremely helpful work on not only studying the changes to MI, in a scientifically approached way, but reporting it back in a comprehensible manner, and then also providing logical analysis of it as well. It provides the community with necessary information.

    Whereas CA\DT not only wont answer questions, or provide us guidance with our testing, but also wont even be clear about features they refer to (like cycling reinforcements). Not to mention the lack of any logical marketing management of likely-to-occur "issues", that could damage the valuable asset of customer goodwill. The one intransigent factor that is analyzed when appraising the worth of a business. A primary factor in establishing a business's goodwill valuation, are its customer's opinions of the company's ability to communicate with them.

    The overall morale system has been raised by a lot. I'm still not sure if the Mongols have hidden combat modifiers or not. I know that YS and SA have been weakened, and that their roles are central to any SP campaigns. If morale modifiers as realistic as "enemy to my flank" has also been removed, then I will be more than sad. I was already sad, before this idea was presented. If anyone has opposite data to present, then present it in as scientific a way as Yuuki has done. If this isnt a critical factor to morale, I dont know what is. One of the most commonly applied morale modifiers, both historically and in STW, was "enemy unit on your flank". Why would MORALE settings ever need to be turned off?

  10. #10
    Member Member DoCToR's Avatar
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    Remember though that the morale still seems to be the same in the SP Japenese campaign...I have had no problem routing the AI or the AI routing me.

    Seems it's just SP custom games and multiplayer games that the morale seems to be skewed!! Possible in the Mongol campaign too...? I dunno yet as i haven't tried...
    =MizuDoc Otomo=
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  11. #11
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Puzz,

    Did you test to see what YA morale went to when a unit was in front and another unit at flank? Try that, and then try engaging the YA from the front and watch its morale, then flank it. That would be the only way to have conclusive data. You're just testing flank proximity morale effect. Not flank-attack morale effect.



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  12. #12
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    The plot thickens.. oh boy it looks like CA really went overboard this time.. maybe they were just trying to attract a bunch of teenie-bopper Starcraft and Command and Conquer fans..

    CA now officially disgusts me.. even though I don't understand this strategy-- people don't know how the game plays until they buy it-- anyone who originally wouldn't have bought the game would not buy it now that it's teenie-bopper friendly, and anyone who buys it and doesn't like it is, well, stuck.

    Just my 2 cents.. SHAME CA!! Shame..

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  13. #13

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    Yep, the morale needs to go back to the way it was ASAP. Hurry before more newbies get used to it!

    I think this is a case of developers trying to please the newbies. Don't they realize that the newbies will move on to another game after month or two and that the hardcore players are the ones that keeps the game alive? Do they want the hardcore players to leave too so Shogun will be dead? Well, they're doing a good job so far...

  14. #14
    Member Member EuroSan's Avatar
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    Koga you mean YA as Ashiguras or Archers....thé Ashigura has rout penilty as do Crossbowman and guns...but not the rest.....look in your TroopStat files....
    Unroutable line... if it says true it cant be routed if it says false it can

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  15. #15

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    Lord Aeon and Koga no Goshi,

    I was not testing for the effect on morale of taking casualties. That still happens. I was testing the effect on morale of proximity and flanking. I did extensive testing on this with the old game months ago, and posted my results. Proximity and flanking affects morale in the old system.

    All you can see is the transistion points on the morale scale between the various states: impetuous, steady, uncertain, wavering and running. You can measure the distance at which these transitions occur. In the old game, H0 YA go to "uncertain" at 43. If you rotate the unit more than 45 degrees to expose it's flank, it goes to "wavering" if the enemy YA closes down to 33. The enemy YA stays at "uncertain" as long as it keeps the unit within a 90 degree arc of it's front. You could boost a flanked unit back to "uncertain" by covering it's flank with another unit. The covering unit could even be set back about even with the back edge of a 6 deep unit and effectively cover it's flank. I don't see this at all in the new game even after I reduced morale with the TroopStat file so that the units have close to the level of morale they have in the old system.

    I see what you're saying. Maybe the effect is still there, but has been reduced. Or maybe the scale has been expanded so every morale modifier has a smaller individual effect. In my previous testing, I was not able to determine if these morale effects were proportional to distance. Maybe it's a step effect at a particular distance, and -8 is not really enough to get things back to the old level. That may be why I saw the transition from "steady" to "uncertain" at exactly 43 distance. I will retest with even lower morale to see if I can see a difference between proximity effect and proximity + flanking, and the distance at which these effects occur. I'll also try surrounding a single unit with up to 4 other units, and see what that does.

    Ok, I hope I was initially wrong. Off to test.
    MizuYuuki

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    Member Member Anssi Hakkinen's Avatar
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    Hey hey hey - maybe we're talking about two different things here. Judging by Puzz3d-san's description (I still don't have the game... first to know, last to get... ), I am fairly convinced that the morale penalty for a *threatened* flank is indeed gone. This will remove the effect of flanking cavalry causing ashi rout cascades, but on the other hand, it will also remove such silliness as units sent on long flanking round trips suddenly routing because they had so many enemies in their rear (even though they themselves were in the enemy rear!).

    However, that need not mean that the overall importance of flanking has been reduced. As you have no doubt noticed (or, rather would no doubt have noticed were it not so), a flanking *attack*, where combat contact is actually made, is still devastating to its victim, at least in terms of losses, and probably morale as well. In this case, the complexity of the game is diminished slightly, but at least the solution would be understandable (given the "magic rout" bugginess).

    Just my 2 koku.

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  17. #17

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    I've had to edit my first post. I was in error about the morale hit due to flanking. It's still there! Once I dropped the morale on YA to -16 (that's 12 points below it's current value of -4), I could duplicate the morale behavior of the old STW. H0 YA go to uncertain at distance of 43, and go to wavering when flanked at a distancew of 33. A single unit facing 6 enemy YA goes from "steady" to "wavering" at a distance of 43. It definitely acts like a step effect coming in at those distances. I just hadn't lowered morale enough in the first test to see the second step.

    I lowered morale to -20, and the non-taisho YA units started out as "uncertain". The taisho YA started out as "steady". At a distance of 43 a pair of YA face-to-face go to "wavering". If I brought up a second YA in flanking position, the flanked YA routs, but I don't know a what distance from the flanking unit. Looked like 33 or closer.

    Isolating the taisho from his other units dropped him to "uncertain". "Wavering" occurs in both YA at the 43 distance when the taisho is confronted with a non-taisho YA. The non-taisho YA can be brought back to "uncertain" by covering it's back or flank with another unit. The benefit of flank cover extends out and back at least a full 10x6 unit spacing. The YA taisho did not rout when approached by 3 YA closely spaced to avoid flanking bonus. However, when I got two YA up beside the center YA where they did cause a flanking on the taisho, the taisho routed.

    The basic system still appears to work the same way as in old STW. The boost being added to the morale now looks like 12 points. It's definitely falls between 8 and 16 points of boost.

    Sorry for the concern I may have caused the community.

    MizuYuuki ~~~


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  18. #18
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Well, Puzz3d has done the first good bit of work in establishing a standard modified troopstats.txt to set things right. Well done. Now we just need to get more people doing tests and inputting. Note that you only need be concerned if you wish to play with a more reasonable morale system, as the modified troopstats file need only be used by these people, and if you're not one of them you just don't have to do the modifications.

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  19. #19
    Member Member celtiberoijontychi's Avatar
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    That's good news, thank you for your research puzz3d
    Gloria y honor al Clan Celtiberos
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  20. #20
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    Puzz, do you believe that the 12 point raise was merely on YA, on all Ashigru units, or a general reduction across the board?

    if it is the last then perhaps a 'standardised' modified troopstats.txt when it has been tested and we can play STW in the old style with the new units...but not on the Mongol Invasion...(remember Target saying Ashigru run when they 'see' MHC under the old rules, or maybe that is a good idea )
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  21. #21
    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    mongols arent that ugly...!

    i would liek a morale slide bar so we can find out ourselves what we think is most realistic.
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  22. #22

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    Whitey,

    The morale was boosted across the board for all units. You don't see this in the TroopStats file. Those values in TroopStats are the same as in the old STW.

    Some preliminary online testing of Sengoku period battles at 5000 koku with morale reduced by 8 points on all units played quite nicely. That's a little above old STW morale, and units, which were honor=2 for me with honor=3 taisho, do fight better than the old STW, but they also will rout over a wide range of unit strength depending on the situation. Typically units would rout between 40% and 20% strength. There is a lot of variation depending on the unit and it's situation, and you can get routs outside that range. I could rally almost all of these remnant units, and bring them back into battle. In the old STW, most would not rally. I was particularly happy with the better performance of cavalry over old STW where cavalry tended to rout very easily.

    Haven't done any tests on Mongol/Korean units at this morale setting. Korean infantry does have slightly lower morale than the Japanese infantry. You might have to keep the infantry in hold formation to minimize casualties, and give the Mongol cav time to do it's work. There are some unit balance issues in this part of the game.

    MizuYuuki ~~~
    Clan Takiyama ~~~

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    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  23. #23

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    Puzz, is that 20-40% losses or 20-40% left in unit? If so, IMO, that is too many losses unless there is a historical reference for Japan in the period. Not for individual units, but overall.

  24. #24
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    as per your suggestion a little further up in the post, I played with a -12 honour change across the board, and I found what I thought was 'too brittle' morale, not that I've been scientific like you, It was just a general impression...

    As for a -8 decrease, I've also played with that now and Agree that It looks more like tha 'happy medium' that was asked for on these forums, to my mind anyway...shifts the game goalposts but doesn't make it more shallow like the default settings.
    Have you seen the fnords?

  25. #25
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    I thought there was something funny going on.

    This thread has confirmed it. I suspect the designers have turned off the flanking morale modifiers to beef up the resilience of the Japanese units when being circled by hordes of MLC and also to stop the MLC routing just cos their flanks and rear are going to be exposed whilst moving inot position.

    I can understand the problem but the solution is very shoddy. What is really needed is some form of threat zone modifier that only applies flank morale modifiers when the unit is actually in danger.

    As Khan7 quite rightly says what we have now is something that just jump several light years closer to being a starcraft clone.

    Hopefully, this error will be corrected otherwise CA just lost a lot of my respect.
    Didz
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  26. #26
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    i think all the vets think the same way. . this morale sucks big time. . .but all the newbies think that it is brilliant! i am not sure that we r gonna get our way in the patch which will be released



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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally posted by JAG:
    i think all the vets think the same way. . this morale sucks big time. . .but all the newbies think that it is brilliant! i am not sure that we r gonna get our way in the patch which will be released
    [/QUOTE]

    Actually it seems a lot of the problems occur in comparing SP vs. MP. In SP, I am firmly in favor of the change, it looks like they got it close to just right. No longer do YS/YA/SA armies disintegrate as soon as a unit is flanked or reared.

    OTOH, in MP it is flat out silly. H0 troops fight far too long and rally much easier than SP units. I do like the other options available in MP though. It was interesting to see a honor/weapon/armor boosted YA/Musket army come close to winning against a H0 mixed army of Musket/ND/WM/YS/Cav.


  28. #28
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    Didz, don't want to sound like Kahn, but read the whole post before replying, the flanking morale hit is still there - Puzz (thankfully) made a mistake...

    Puzz, to avoid this could you please make it clear by re-editing the first post...It's not nice to see people turned off when there is no need - maybe the word should be spread...

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  29. #29
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    wake up guys, they distroyed the best game around and created a game wich give only some months of pleasure.....than they can close the server and save a lot of money...

    ...HOLYWOOD....

    koc

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