Richie wants patch ideas polite replies only as maybe only 1 shot at

[hach]

E-Mailed Richie/The Shogun today

I was asking him about patches for WE/MI'particuarly the concern over morale.

This was the reply i got.

---------------------------------------------Hach how ya doing

We want well structured feed back from every one on the forums and any thing
that is a major problem or bone of contention will be looked in to. I have
been told that there will be at least one patch so we would want to get a
lot of feed back to make sure it's bang on. The game is not out in Europe
yet and has only been out in the states for just over a week so we still
have a long way to go before we can get enough info to see how every one
feels.

Richie

---------------------------------------------

So we will get at least 1 patch'but not until
the europeans also have the Expansion pack to and Beta test it.

So i want to make this the official whats to be patched thread.

But no rants and raves please as if as Richie says we may only get 1 shot at a patch(though not definite)then i want it to be right.
So if you've got a beef about 1.13 on STW' or if you've not received a prize from Creative then please post elsewhere.

I have not seen the game yet'so my full ideas for patching will not be posted until then'but so far

1)Morale! Most hate the new format'so either the original format'or at least some sort or middle option or way to adjust it.

2)Mongol vs Mongol

3)AI doing port2port attacks

4)Autoroute bug


Hach

P.S Last week i was also a ranter and raver'but you will notice if you send a polite message to Richie'you will get a reply same day.(Well i do)



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The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill' but to let live!

[Vanya]

Given what I've seen here, add option to toggle on/off the random reinforcement entry feature. ON -- does what WEMI does now. OFF -- does what the original STW did, with reinforcements comming from just your back end of the map.

[Asakura Lord]

how do we contact Richie for these ideas for the patch?

[DarthGuru]

morale is probably the biggest problem it seems. Somewhere inbetween what it is now, and what the old STW setting were at is ideal. Another thing that bothered me was the split servers. Although I'm doubtful theyll change it, this is something I'd like for them to consider.

[hach]

His mail address is available at the .com site.

You would be better adding your ideas though to this thread'rather than everyone sending him idea's piecemeal and in dribs and drabs.

Going by his reply no patch action will be even started till the Europeans have maybe had a few weeks to get to grips.

Hach

[DragonCat]

I don't agree that "MOST" people are unhappy with the morale as it is now online. I would amend that to "SOME". We also need hard data on this. Sometimes online you may be playing with someone who has turned morale OFF! (Although I don't think this is the case with most of the people who are unhappy with morale). Personally, I am fine with morale as it is, but would not object to a slight adjustment downwards.

Mongol vs. Mongol- MUST have

Option to have varying amounts of Koku for defender and attacker to help balance maps would be VERY nice.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[[Won-Ton] Atlus]

i agree with darth, because i dislike the morale of the old game. too much running, and i rather enjoy the new morale, but some dont, so i'd say put it between the two. (hopefully closer to the newer one).

[monkeydan]

I think (and I know others think this as well) that the patch should also include a feature to allow for differing amounts of koku for attackers and defenders in MP.

Of course, I'd also like to see J vs. J and M vs. M in MP as well...

[ishikawa2]

RE: Reinforcements
In my opinion, the current WE reinforcement scheme is badly flawed. For me, it has often resulted in rather tedious "end-game mop-up" and it detracts from the enjoyment of the game.

Suggested correction (presumably VERY easy): Appearance of reinforcements should be limited to the player's original "half" of the battlefield.

NOTE: If a river is positioned in such a way that the "back half" of the battlefield actually includes a small bit of territory on "my" side of the river, **I** would accept that occasionally enemy reinforcements could arrive on "my" side. (I gather that many players might disagree with me on this.) In any case, I would think that the probability of this event would be rather low, with reinforcement entry points pretty much evenly distributed around the total available perimeter.

A somewhat related issue: Currently, if a player occupies the center of the enemy's back edge during a battle, all routing troops enemy will unrealistically rout directly TOWARDS him. I think this is a problem. I suggest that routing troops might prefer to move in that general direction, but they should not rout directly towards enemy units and should instead look for clear paths to the edge of the battlefield, either (1)anywhere on the back edge; or (2)anywhere in the "back half"; or (3)wherever they came from. I recognize that this might prove to be a harder fix than simply limiting their point of entry, and I don't have a clear preference for 1,2, or 3 above.

[Alastair]

I think we'd better keep on what we all agree on. We all agree (AFAIK) that there should be Mongol vs Mongol, that the F1 and rout bugs should be fixed, that there should be adjustable koku, that there should either be reinforcements restricted to your side of the map/river, and that the morale should be decreased, but not all the way down to STW levels.

[This message has been edited by Alastair (edited 08-22-2001).]

[hach]

Sounds pretty good to me Alistair.

Do we all agree or is it just me that the AI also should do port2port invasions??

When i am playing SP campaign i cheat on the Harvest/province loyalty by making my Taxes very low for 3 of the seasons and for Autumn i make it punitive.So for 3/4 of the year my population are happy and only pissed off with me for 1/4.This prevents rebellion and also gives me max koku every year.Obviously this is totally crap'but i only do this because the game allows me to do so and would be quite happy for this to be altered in some way.Maybe if you do a punitive tax the province remembers you were a bastard for 1 to 2 years and then start to trust you again providing you don't hit them with punitive soon again.

Hach

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The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill' but to let live!

[hach]

P.S Thanx guys for keeping this civilish.

Hach

[monkeydan]

I agree with P2P invasions - just another level of interest added to the strategic aspects (and I wouldn't feel so bad about stabbing the enemy in the back! :P)

[Erado San]

I definitely would like port to port. Would make more tense strategy.

[The_battlefield_geisha]

I agree with everything so far but I wouldnt want the morale reduced by too much.

Also, minor point, kensai definitely are not showing their proper honor on the strat screen (unit honor never exceeds 1). The only time you see their *real* honor is on the battle screen.

Computer port attacks would be fantastic. Even just small harrassing forces to keep your forces split. Maybe they could give x number of computer shinobi a "hunt for ports" directive. Depending on available forces they could then either launch a regular full attack or just send one unit to capture and destroy all the facilities in the port province. Doesnt *seem* like it would involve much coding for this.

[hach]

Hi Erado

I was thinking about you and the last question time.

Would you be willing to run another question time regarding this thread subject.

You are respected universally by ourselves and the makers of the game and would be able to present it to Creative/EA in a better format.

Hach

[monkeydan]

I agree with the battlefield geisha (and with DragonCat) that the morale only needs a slight adjustment if anything.

[hach]

What about my Harvest cheat?
Am i cheating?

Hach

[monkeydan]

hach,

I dunno if I would call it cheating, but I do think that even peasants would be able to figure out your scam Including some kind of morale penalty would make it more realistic, but I also don't think it should be a priority for the patch.

[Gothmog]

I sort of disagree on the port2port invasion thing.

The idea that you can transport troops instantly (or in one turn) between two of your provinces regardless of the distance is odd to begin with, but I suppose it's neccessory otherwise the troop manuval will be too tedious.

But INVADING another territory as if you can simply ship 5000+ troops and dump them in the rival province and deploy them nice and easy on the battlefield? No, not fair. That's why I don't use port invasion myself.

Not to mention that building ports used to be valid way to raise koku output if you have poor farmland; now it's just an invitation to trouble.

if someone really wants the port2port invasion feature, I suggest that the battle be treated diffrently and the attackers should receive some penalty (maybe get into a scenario similar to castle assault). Here are some random thoughts:

1) A dock can be added to the province map (like a bridge that the attackers have to cross)

2) attackers have very little place to manuval, and are subject to missle fire

3) attackers can't arrive all at once.

Also, disable the auto-retreat. So that if you invade with a large army consist of crappy units, the AI won't be scared away too easily.

[Jason-Alaska]

MultiPlayer Campaign! Please.

[The_battlefield_geisha]

My only point with the AI port to port invasion is to make the campaign more difficult. Once I build my "great wall" of units and start moving east or west, its ridiculous that i have dozens of empty provinces and ports and the computer cant even land a unit of ashigaru.

"Raiders" would be nice at least, the computer sending one unit of yari or something via sea to unoccupied port districts to burn down all the buildings.

[This message has been edited by The_battlefield_geisha (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Kraellin]

first off, remember, this is a patch, not another xpack :) so, i wouldnt expect a lot of 'new' stuff, just fixes and maybe a tweak or two.

timers in multi games need to be reported in the same way that seasons are now reported. you can see if the host has set a timer and for how long BEFORE you join the game.

i wouldnt touch morale or anything else that has now been made available to us to mod. we can mod honor stats ourselves, and thus morale, but if they do tweak it downwards, make it a small tweak.

port to port attacks: i posted about this in another thread on the matter in an old stw thread and 'teleporting' troops for ai or player side is just too weird. you need sea sections that have to be moved across to be more realistic, ala univeralis europa....with ship fights, so this isnt likely gonna happen in a patch...maybe in crusaders, but not likely here. still, i'd love to see it.

fix the F1 key.

any of the wish list mods stated in the mods forum for the map editor.

revision of how drops and disco's work in comp games. since it is now possible to cheat as a host and force a player to drop in a comp game and thus rob honor, this MUST be fixed or revised how drops work. Target/Richie, if you want details of how this works, email me at starfire@apex.net because i wont post it here. suffice it to say we can make it work every time in a comp game.

mongol vs mongol in multi games...absolutely!

differing koku amounts in multi games. yes.

a revision or option to ALL game styles in multi to allow FFA (free for all) and a subsequent appropriate scoring system for such.

reinforcements: apparently some dont like the new way, but i would remind folks of how the old way worked and that it was supremely easy to camp at the spawn site and annihilate all reinforcements before they got 10 feet, so let's not go back to that! also bear in mind that with the new game styles, particularly king of the hill, that this is a VERY GOOD way to do reinforcements and keeps everyone on their toes! also, there is nothing particularly illogical about how the reinforcement system currently works, except maybe for one thing. if you had an invader into your territory, troops from all over would rally to the afflicted territory to supress this threat, so they might well come in from every conceivable location, with one exception...the invader came from somewhere and likely he had to cut a path to get there, so, i'd ONLY modify the reinforcements to NOT have them come in from the invader's/attacker's side, but DO allow them to come in from the other three sides. and even then, this would get a bit weird in king of the hill games but could still work and would eliminate spawn camping.

yes, fix any remaining autoroute bug.

paths of routing units, yes, this has always seemed silly to me. if yer running from a battle, why in the world would you run into a waiting enemy that you can see? man, i'm gonna head for the nearest trees, bushy swamp, distant enemy free location i can find.

i think it was zen_blade who also mentioned that the enemy ai always 'sees' hidden units, even at a distance where they shldnt. this needs to be fixed.

the harvest tax cheat thing....well, quit cheating! ;)

we also need an a notifier in the multi foyer to show when a player has altered stats. currently, you can join a game where someone has altered stats and you have no way of knowing it and likewise, you can join a game with altered stats and no one knows this either. since they have made the stat files available to us this would be a nice way of alerting folks that this isnt a standard game and we all know that some yo-yo is going to try and abuse this.

oh yes, one last thing that others have asked for and i concur, a mixed units mode option in multi, for playing both japanese and mongol units all within the same army...just a wide open 'what if' sort of army option. i dont even care if it's a lopsided, unbalanced, weirdo-mode bug fest. gimme :) (we'll alter the stats to suit :)

K.

p.s. if ya do all that, including the editor mods and port to port per sectional sea areas and ship fights, i'd be happy to throw ya another $20. and if you also add in the multiplayer campaign, done up right, i'd kick in another $20 on top of that :)

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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[This message has been edited by Kraellin (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Gimmedc]

a option for unlimited time on the map with a family , might be impossible but just a suggestion a lot of people like to build huge armies and take their time constructing a huge legacy but as i have learned this doesnt work well ran out of time

[hach]

Forgot the most annoying thing in SP mode.
enemy who seems to be able to read your mind and though you could invade 5 different provinces just happens to reinforce the one you have moved your troops in to.

The SP campaign should be like the board game diplomacy and all units move on the strategic map simoultaneously(can't spell it'but at the same time).

Hach

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The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill' but to let live!

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hach the AI already does port to port invasions,it's happened to me once,and I know it did because my attacker had no provinces that abutted Aki.I seem to be in the minority about random reinforcements,I like it.I haven't played multiplayer so I don't know about this morale thing.In single player there doesn't seem to be any problem with morale that I have noticed.Definitely fix mongol vs mongol,and the split server.I believe most of the complaints are with the multiplayer part of the game.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Zen Blade]

well, first off...

I want to say bravo to Hach.

Second, I will be posting a long (hopefully well-thought out) post this evening when I get back home about my impressions of the new game after having it for a week and a half.

So, I will be brief here.

1. MORALE.... either the original way, or much closer to the original. Ashigaru (guns and spears) should not be able to fight till the last man. Monks and yari spearman... maybe.

2. There is a definite heir bug. Duplicates exist.

3. General's "rank"... there is an occasional error.... a general might have won 37 battles, lost 4... but his rank will be "1". This shows up on the strategy map.... but I don't know about the actual battles.

4. potential error in SP battles with more than 2 players....--has to do with who gets win/loss and when battle should stop...

5. SCENARIO/CAMPAIGN editor/modifier... This sounds complex... but really isn't... just something that would allow name changes in the text and maybe in the dialogue (not voice though)... Like... being able to name our special Taishos BEFORE game starts.

6. RONIN REVOLTING ARMIES RETREAT AND DISAPPEAR. This has happened several times... A ronin army revolts in province "A" successfully. A ronin army then revolts in province "B" or "C", which are adjacent to province "A". However, those armies choose to retreat to a neighboring province (says so in a dialogue box). BUT, they completely disappear. This seems like a bug...

more later....

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Lord Aeon]

I would like to see a way to adjust or at least see unit discipline stats. I suspect that this little stat might be one source of the "morale controversy" we've all been dealing with.

I'll organize my thoughts on this for the next FotD post.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Vanya]

Me thinks differing koku in MP is a bomb waiting to go off! I can see it already: honor-mongers set up a game with attacker getting 10000 koku and defender getting 1000 on Shinano in Mongol era, with them playing the Mongol attacker. Gee... I wonder who will win that one. This will elevate 'newbie-hunting' to new levels!

So, should they do this, what is an acceptable variance in koku? I'd content anything greater than 10% is ludicrous. And I'm sure there are plenty of whiners out there that would say this would 'even the playing field'... but, then they play on flat maps only. Do you really expect somebody to accept a 25% koku cut to defend GREEN? Wake up and smell the coffee! Ain't gonna happen (unless an idiot is playing...)!

[celtiberoijontychi]

Port to port invasions taking 1 turn is not "teleporting". Actually, 1 turn equals three months. That should be enough time for any ship. After all, Columbus only took 1 month to cross the atlantic ocean. Of ourse it would be better if there was a chance for some ships getting sunk by storms, etc., but it's not realistic to expect this from a patch.

A good idea wich wouldn't need much effort to implement it would be to have port invasions fought in a coastal map like the mongols, what do you think?