Vote on reinforcements SP mode -- there must be a better way

[Otokomi Innue]

Okay.

There is a lot of discussion in several threads about the way "reinforcements" are handled in the xpack. (the definition for this post for the word "reinforcements" is troops placed in or existing in a province intended to be part of the main force but due to game restrictions are not included in the battle initially but can be both swapped in during initial deployment and sometimes show up [Solpsist ] to replace troops that have routed, been withdrawn, or been dispatched by the enemy -- this definition will hopefully prevent this discussion from cascading into a debate about reserves and reinforcements [Kraellin ])

For your enjoyment, and hopefully for the betterment of this community and our beloved STW:MI I present these questions to you:

1.Should reinforcements (see above definition) be random, marching in from all directions, the wrong side of the river, etc.?

2.Should there be a way for players to select which of your reinforcements enter the field (SA or HC, etc) first a la "swap out" button appearing when troops leave the field?

3.Should players have control over the entry point or placement of these reinforcements?
a.via a controlled area scheme.
b.via a my half/enemy's half.

4.Are there any other ideas out there to change the current setup?

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This is an excerpt from another post on this subject:

....In my mind, there should be a little more player control in the deployment of reinforcements. I highly doubt that Daimyo would allow random utilization of such strategic assets.
With the implementation of the new "swap out" button (found on the top right during the deployment phase of combat), it wouldn't be a stretch to have a similar button become active when a unit diengages and leaves the field.

For example, if I order my spent archers to withdraw to make room for fresh units, and in battle I am in desperate need of some more archers, I should be able to choose archers from my reserves instead of the YA I don't need. Also, why not have the opportunity to deploy them (choose the point of entry) in areas under my control or my side, for ease.
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Another excerpt:

...If the enemy was organized, I would have to reply with equal organization...STRATEGY!!!
There are two ideas:

1.The idea of controlled space on the field could work like this. A percentage of troops (or specific number of troops) would qualify an area as being "controlled". 2 Units of YC would not qualify, making them as vulnerable as you described as the enemy would still have theoretical control of that portion of the map (his default half). A larger force could do 2 things:
a)Control enough of the map (rout all or most of the enemy troops) to prevent any reinforcements. This prevents the sacrifice of weak reinforcements in small numbers who have no hope of pushing us back.
b)If I control 2/3 of the map, or a specific objective (that ridge on the east) it would be very strategic to march my new troops from the nearest controlled border to that objective.

2.The option to choose from the available forces. I took the trouble to bring 5,000 troops to this province, I want to deploy them as I see fit, where I see fit (control).

A bonus idea is this. The controlled area could be identified in the "Map View" in a similar manner to how it is set up during the deployment phase (transparent overlay).

I believe this would all work well because it can be easily implemented. These ideas would use the same tools and 'code' that is already complete during the deployment phase.
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These excerpts are from:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002041.html

Comments please


[This message has been edited by Otokomi Innue (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Gregoshi]

1) No (not current MI "random" method)

2) No (you should not be able to select "swap out" units)

3) a (controlled area scheme)

Changes: it would be nice if you could choose your starting army. That would alleviate some of the reasons for needing the "swap out" selection (#2).

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Gregoshi,

You can swap out your initial 16 units before the start of battle. Look near the top of the screen before you start. there is a little curved arrow. Select the unit u want to drop, hit the arrow and poof another unit will appear in its place. Cycle thru until you get the units you want to start with.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Otokomi Innue]

BSM_Skkzarg.

Your input is valuable. any other thoughts on reinforcements.

Thanks Gregoshi. BSM_Skkzarg is right. I want to model the choice of reinforcements after the "swap out" during the initial deployment.

[Kiwi]

Hi,
1. no they should not be random. But we do not want to go back to what we had before where you could camp on the spot where you knew where they would arrive and decimate them. It should be random on 'your side' of the game.
2. Yes. It would be very easy to show an icon for YC, YA etc and let you pick which unit you want.
3. No. Too much trouble. See 1 above.
4. If the AI is getting the re-inforcements immediately that they lose a unit the same should be for the player. It is ridiculous how long you have to wait and this leads you to the point where you do not withdraw spent troops which defeats the whole idea of having more than 16 units.
A general gripe of mine is what did the Beta testers do? They must have noticed this problem. This is not meant in a derogatory way it is just difficult to imagine how they could have failed to pick this up as a problem and it should be easy to fix.

Good post.

[Otokomi Innue]

Kiwi,

I would be content with my reinforcements appearing on my half. Also, Should my whole army leave the field before reinforcements arrive? I hope this is a bug and can be fixed.

[This message has been edited by Otokomi Innue (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Pod]

1.Should reinforcements (see above definition) be random, marching in from all directions, the wrong side of the river, etc.?

No.

2.Should there be a way for players to select which of your reinforcements enter the field (SA or HC, etc) first a la "swap out" button appearing when troops leave the field?

Yes.

3.Should players have control over the entry point or placement of these reinforcements?
a.via a controlled area scheme. No.
b.via a my half/enemy's half. Preferably random point along home edge (quite likely easy to code).

[Otokomi Innue]

POD,

You're up early. Thanks for the contribution. I think your view is most likely to be supported.

The area of control intrigues me, but it may be a bit extreme.

[Pod]

Assuming that most players take a balanced army onto the field, would it work if the reinforcements were selected on a like for like or nearest equivelent basis. Tho maybe that would exclude some tactics like archers and spears to stall the attack then swop archers for cavalry to mop up.

P.S. up late (24 Hrs straight)

[Otokomi Innue]

I like the idea of reinforcements being strategic to the nth degree. Let us be free to swap out archers for cavalry of whatever else we can think of to outwit the enemy.

Of course there are costs. Withdrawing troops makes one vulnerable.

My main concern is the randomness.


It's 3:37am where I am.

[This message has been edited by Otokomi Innue (edited 09-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Otokomi Innue (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Karhu]

Hi. My vote would be:

1. No - it's far too unrealistic as it stands.

2. No - it seems to me to be fair enough that a general in the field would not know exactly which units were coming up, or precisely where they would arrive.

3. Anywhere on the player's own half is fine, and seems to be fair enough as a balance.

I agree with Kiwi that the wait is too long. At the moment I hardly withdraw units at all, especially in the winter when days are short. Even a depleted unit or archers with no arrows are better than non-appearing reinforcements.

[Pod]

Maybe reinforcements entering from the home edge at a point closest to the taisho would be the most logical way.

There is a problem with units entering the map at points where they get stuck, maybe using the home edge will cure this, two birds with one stone?

[Otokomi Innue]

Karhu,

Imagine the reinforcements to be part of the original battle plan. Placing them doesn't seem so unrealistic then. For example, "you wait here until I need you. I will send word to you then come..." I know linear warfare was fought with meticulous planning and forethought.

I will have to concede that 'random on my side' will be a common favourite.

Thansk for your input.

[clink]

1) No.

2) Yes. A comander should have control over tactical deployment of reserves he's committed to battle.

3) Yes.

I use the word reserves other than reinforcements.simply because commanders have them at there becon call when the need to use them arises. There for complete control should be given to the player.

It shouldn't be like youv'e curcled the wagons,waiting for the cavalry to arive.

[Gregoshi]

BSM - thanks a million! You have just made my day. This gem should be in the undocumented feature thread.



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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[Forward Observer]

1. No
2. Yes
3. Controled but only on our half of the
map

[Shoko]

I would prefer for reinforcements 2 appear from ur starting off position or u could have a certain area on the map lets say ur camp area where they could appear...

[Wyatt]

1. NO, NO, No. Neutral on all other questions.

[Otokomi Innue]

Good feedback. We can almost compile a consensus. Who needs to see this so we can get it done?

[Otokomi Innue]

Here's a semi-shameless post. I want to keep this alive so that it changes.

Also, I haven't put in my vote:

1.No, doesn't reflect the Way of the Daimyo

2.Yes, easy for the developers to implement and a good way add depth and strategy to this portion of the game.

3.b I like both but random on our half of the screen is more plausible.

I have no more ideas!

[This message has been edited by Otokomi Innue (edited 09-04-2001).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

I posted on this and a few other issues as well. I agree with the randomness problem, and I have been firm on the half and half idea as the most plausible given realism vs. CA resources available.

As for determining what unit comes it, it would be nice - but to do it would require a large rework of the underlying programming. We are already asking for one concerning the random entrance points.... we won't get both. I would rather see random units that i can rout back out rather than controlling what unit i get only to see it emerge into an area surrounded by mongol heavy cav....



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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Otokomi Innue]

Okay Folks,

Here is the running talley:

Yes | No
-----------
1. 0 | 8
2. 5 | 3
3a. 1 | 2*
3b. 4 | 0

*There were 2 general "no"s that did not address a specific style, so for simplicity, I placed them here.

There were several comments without votes. If you have given input (thanks) but haven't voted, please vote.

Also, thank you for your answers to number 4. I might put them together for more comments.

[TakeshidaSo]

REINFORCEMENT>
They have improved this area from cycling reinforcements, to allowing reinforcements to enter the map safely. It allows for KOTH games, and the AI makes better use of reinforcements than it used to. Secondary forces should be able to be employed strategically.

Solution:
Let units be assigned as detached reinforcements, and let all secondary forces choose entry areas.
Alternate:
Allow for a "safe" reinforcement option, such as STW's approach, or a "friendly" mapside entry.

[Nelson]

1. No, although the AI bringing in new troops anywhere does make the SP game more interesting IMO. The old single entrance was poor.

2. yes

3. some control

I would like to select units to belong to a detachment. This detachment would have a taisho who's rating would determine the likelyhood of his arrival on the field when and where I plan. i.e. 4 selected units enter somewhere on the east side of the map 10 minutes into the game. Asking to enter on the extreme opposite side of the field would add extra time to the ETA. A rookie taisho would have a high chance of being late or getting lost and not appearing at all whereas Tokugawa Ieyasu would almost certainly show up on schedule. Any off map units the enemy may have could also influence the algorithm for arrival. So could the presence of a river or the difficulty of terrain. This would add complexity to the game for sure but the strategic aspect would be fun.

[Otokomi Innue]

Well it looks like it is decided. Two excellent threads have given us a thorough overview of common complaints/bug, etc. These threads also include thoughtful notes about the focus of this thread -- reinforcements. Go to http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002095.html for BSM_skkzarg's excellent post AND http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002101.html for TakeshidoSo's Bible-like MI Patch overview.

I know that all of your posts on this thread were valuable contributions to both summaries.