Target, MORALE problem is with CUSTOM and ONLINE only!!!

[DoCToR]

Please note!

Do not try to alter the SP campaign morale system, it's absolutely perfect as it is...!

Only online and Jap v Jap custom battles have the morale problems...

Thanks,

DOC

[ShadowBlood]

hmmmm

I don't agree though,
I'm playing 1530 campaign under Takeda banner. And is way far easy to battle.
Ashigaru H0 just can stand against YS H2 and up for a long time...something's not right.

I'm almost done with it and major difference i noted was fighting ability, that's way lower than before when units come out of dojos, maybe but for Nodachi. I think that's what new dojos for.

Show no mercy
Take none

"You can't expect to face him and survive!"

[DoCToR]

Quote Originally posted by ShadowBlood:
Ashigaru H0 just can stand against YS H2 and up for a long time...something's not right.
[/QUOTE]

You might expect YA to stand against YS for a reasonable time though... it would be different if they were ND or WM, otherwise known as shock troops!

YS aren't shock troops and aren't likely to induce a massive morale failure...that is one of the major purposes of shock troops and cavalry in STW and MI

DOC

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

I agree with Doctor SP morale seems fine to me. I still see whole armies routing etc... Their is NO problem in SP Sengoku Campaigns.

[Talenn]

Yep, I'm in total agreement here. Morale seem perfectly fine in SP campaigns. I often break the enemy with a quick Cav charge before they even impact (especially with high Honor and all the trimmings).

Also, missile fire and flanking seem to have the desired effects on enemy morale as well.

All in all, the Morale seems fine and I'd hate to see it changes in the SP game.

Talenn

[Khan7]

Thank you very much Doc, this fact has been thrown around quite a bit in the forum but alotta peeps are slow to catch on (or maybe missed some of the threads or posts on it), so it needs to be thrown around some more to get everyone up to speed.

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Khan7

[Puzz3D]

I edited this post because my opinion was based on an assumption which is probably incorrect.

If indeed morale levels in the single player campaign are close to the old STW, then I don't think they should be changed either.



[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-30-2001).]

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i am still urging for a option button so many players can be pleased...

[Khan7]

Until you produce actual hard experimental data, Puzz-san, I am going to assume that you are wrong and you just haven't looked into it sufficiently. Morale is, as a matter of undeniable fact, much MORE normal in SP Campaigns. When I initially played my ACW units that I had been trying to figure out how to weaken for MP and Custom in a campaign, they wavered upon sighting the enemy and ran as soon as he got within 50 yards, as opposed the their behavior in MP and Custom where I had just then tweaked them down enough to where they would actually behave somewhat realistically instead of holding bad positions and fighting to the death like a bunch of morons.

There was no honor level difference between my Custom battle units and the units I was using in the campaign, both added up to h2 (with a gen).

So morale MORE normal in Campaigns, which brings us to the question-- why would they create TWO new morale levels?? There is no logical explanation, and I have noticed no difference in the way units behaved in Campaigns between the old and the xpack, so the only logical conclusion, for me at least, is that they are exactly the same and only custom and MP has been affected.

------------------
Khan7

[Puzz3D]

Khan7,

Yes, I made a quick test of campaign play, and realize that I made an assumption that is not necessarily correct. I confirmed that changes to the morale in the TroopStats file carry over into the single player campaign. However, I then assumed that meant single player and multiplayer used the same values. Of course, the boost to morale could be coming in only for multiplyer and custom. If that's true, then multiplayer morale can be adjusted without altering the single player campaign gameplay. You must be correct if you had musketts running that easily in the campaign.

MizuYuuki

[Magyar Khan]

i am more interested in teh answer to teh questionb... WHy did they changed it?

[DoCToR]

Magyar,

Apparently, according to Target, they changed it to balance the superior Mongols and the inferior Japanese in the MI campaign and therefore also M v J online games!

HE said that basically the power of the Mongols was causing the Japanese to rout far too early as the Mongol cavalry can kill very quickly thereby affecting morale very quickly...

What they obviously didn't check was that this morale increase also affected the Jap v Jap battles in both custom and online games......without adversely affecting the Sengoku Jidai campaign?!

...i think?!

[Shoko]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
i am still urging for a option button so many players can be pleased...[/QUOTE]
Yep Magy this would give ppl the options 2 choose how they want morale system 2 work Im behind u on this one,as im shaw other are


------------------
Shoko Emperor
Die by the Sword

[Magyar Khan]

but where is this hyping Target now where u need him? although he tries to give us another feeling he only shows up when he can write nicely fixed answers. I will ask my cham to track him.

[celtiberoijontychi]

They changed the morale to get more ppl playing online.

In old STW it took a desperating long time to achieve the first victory. The learning curve was to steep, many got bored by always getting routed after 3 mInutes of battle or, even worse, after 1/2 an hour of marching, maneuvering and 3 minutes of fight.

LOL I remeber it was incredibly frUstating to see how easily my troops got routed for seemingly no reason, then there were the communication problems with allies ... unless you found a cooperative guy or you played with someone you knew, it usually ended in a disaster, mainly due to morale issues.

Good Ole STW was a really TOUGH game to learn online, 1 mistake and you were out, AND THAT'S WHY I LIKED THE DAMN GAME!!!

C'mon ppl, if I wanted an easy game i'd play C&C!



------------------
Gloria y honor al Clan Celtiberos
Glory and Honour to Clan Celtiberos

[Target]

I'm still here - I'm just trying to figure out a nicely fixed answer.

From what we've been reading, it looks like whatever we do to the morale is going to annoy somebody, but we are trying to come up with the best way to fix the problem.

------------------
Quote MagyarKhans Cham:
i even suspect Target is coming here to hype things up.[/QUOTE]

[TakeshidaSo]

Articles of Petition
---------------------------------------------
1). MORALE>

Morale is increased by 2 points for each honor upgrade. MI has increased morale by 12 pts. Thats a morale increase equivalent to 6 honor upgrades, which is nearly triple that of a units base cost. This increase was to a system where 18 pts. is considered impetuous, and the range was from -4 morale for YA, to +8 morale for WM, and ND. For every 2 honor upgrades morale is raised by 4 pts., and the units cost is almost doubled (96%). Campaign costs, and base unit stats, are for H0 units. The cost of custom and online units is for an H2 unit, and so they have +4 to morale, and double the value of campaign units.

Solution:
Make the default campaign unit an H2 unit, and set the default morale in MI back 12 points.
Alternate:
Set the custom, and online default to H0, and lower MI morale settings by 8 pts.

2). F1 BUTTON>

Since custom and online units start with H2, they are supposed to have a 1 pt. increase to attack, over their base stats. It takes 1 Honor upgrade, at 40% over the units base cost, to add one pt. to attack bonus, although it cant be verified with the F1 key. With 2 Weapon upgrades, for 44% over the units base cost, two attack bonus's are shown, but none are shown for added Honor.

Solution:
Show the correct Attack bonus number.
Alternate:
Show the units morale bonus instead.

3). UPGRADES>

Since custom and online units start with H2, they already have a 1 pt. increase to defense, over their base stats. It takes 2 Honor upgrades, at 96% over the base units cost, to add one pt. to defense. Armor upgrades add 1 pt. to defense, and armor. Armor upgrades can add 3 pts. to defense, at a cost of 75% over the base, and also add 3 pts. more armor protection than was even possible in STW. Honor upgrades do not improve armor, just defense. Raised by 60%, the highest armor is now 8. Raised by 33%, the maximum defense is 9.

Solution:
Double the cost of Weapon and Armor upgrades.
Alternate:
Double the cost of Armor upgrades.

4). UNIT BALANCE>

4A). JHC(600 koku) aren't competitive with; MHC(600 koku), MLC (500 koku), WM (500 koku), JYC (475 koku), or JNC (450 koku). Compared to JYC, MHC has 2 more melee pts., 3 more armor and defense pts., and 6 more morale pts., but only costs 25% more. If JYC added 2 Weapon, one Armor, and one Honor upgrade, at their present costs, for a total of 960 koku, it still would not compete with the MHC.

Solution:
Increase JHC Honor to 8, and melee to 3. Increase JYC armor to 4. Reduce MHC melee to 3. Reduce MLC armor to 3.
Alternate:
Reduce cost of JHC to 500, increase the cost of MHC to 700, and MLC to 600.

4B). SA have 1 pt. less defense than they did in STW. The muskets value is increased because of being able to fire in the rain, and thru walls and hills. KSK can easily destroy SA and costs only 25% more. A KSK can easily destroy a NAG, or JHC; the power of this unit is not reflective of the real destructive potential of Javelin, or even pilum armed troops.

Solution:
Increase SA defense to 0. Reduce KSK armor to 4, and it's killing-power by half. Stop guns firing thru hills and in the rain.
Alternate:
Reduce cost of SA to 250, increase the cost of KSK to 450, and increase the cost of guns by 40% each.

4C). It may be that play balance, relative to Mongol vs. Hojo strength, wont be entirely solved with these few changes, even if every option were employed. It may be that modified troopstats will be needed to further even the odds.

Solution:
Allow selections of preset troopstats options for custom, online, and campaign battles.
Alternate:
Allow selections of preset troopstats options for custom, and online battles.

5). REINFORCEMENT>
They have improved this area from cycling reinforcements, to allowing reinforcements to enter the map safely. It allows for KOTH games, and the AI makes better use of reinforcements than it used to. Secondary forces should be able to be employed strategically.

Solution:
Let units be assigned as detached reinforcements, and let all secondary forces choose entry areas.
Alternate:
Allow for a "safe" reinforcement option, such as STW's approach, or a "friendly" mapside entry.

6). ROUTERS>
If a routing unit moves a set distance from enemy units, much like skirmish formation instructs missile units now, and then towards it's rout area, it attempts to retreat safely. If it cant move away from two equal distance enemy, it should move towards its rout area as it currently does.

Solution:
Instruct routing units to follow skirmisher type reactions to the proximity of enemy units.
Alternate:
Instruct routing unit that it's rout area is the nearest map edge.

7). MONGOL RESTRICTIONS>
Allowing for Mongol, and Hojo infighting, would avoid any unit imbalances that exist between the Mongols and the Japanese. This infighting occurs in the SP campaigns, because of ronin, and bribed mongol armies. This can also happen in online games, because of buggy behavior.

Solution:
Remove the restriction, and provide alternative player colors.
Alternate:
Provide alternative player colors.

Eight). COMBINED SERVER>
Combining the servers would promote the game, and its expansion. It would allow for the online community support to grow, instead of being choked to death because it's divided. New online players may find they are alone in MI's server.

Solution:
Combine the ports of the server.
Alternate:
Create a new server to let both games into a single online area.

Nine). TIMER>
The "5-min." timer is an online cheat, and is incongruous with the honor\ranking competitive data base. Why have an honor\rank data base, if you wont protect it from this cheat.

Solution:
Make it known in lobby if timer is used.
Alternate:
Require MAX. timer for the season.


Addendum.

Unit.Chrge.Melee.Defns.Armor.Honor
---------------------------------------------
SA.......2.......0......-1.......1.......0
AC.......0......-6......-3.......1.....-5
ND.......8.......6......-2.......1.......8
WM......4.......5.......2.......1.......8
NG.......4.......0.......6.......5.......4
YS.......0.......0.......2.......2.......2
YA.......0......-1.....-1.......2......-4
CA.......3.......1.......2.......3.......0
YC.......8.......2.......3.......3.......2
HC.......5.......2.......6.......5.......4
NC.......4.......5.......2.......4.......8
MHC.....6.......4.......4.......5.......8
MLC.....4.......2.......2.......4.......4
KG.......4.......2.......4.......4.......0
KSP.....0.......0.......1.......2......-1
KSK.....0.......0.......0.......5.......0
---------------------------------------------

[Nelson]

These suggestions would require a lot of testing in SP campaigns if they are not sequestered into the MP game only. I suspect that Mongol campaign balance is very fragile regarding morale and unit stats because the Japanese can modify their units over time while the Mongols can't.

[Swoosh So]

IMO the morale needs to be fixed most players are using ashigaru armys with weapon and honor upgrades and their the strongest units in the game now for cost, that in my opinion is silly, ive faced countless ashigaru and gun armies and most of the time u cant win even with getting all flanks if u have monks and nodachi!!!!!! the games consist of an ashigaru rush with guns supporting how exciting!! NOT!!!!!!

SwooOOOOOOSSSssssHHHooooOOOOOwwwl

Swoosh of Grey Wolves

[Khan7]

geezus that's friggin wild. Glad I left when I did. I had a feeling that the weapon and armor upgrades would be the death of the game.

Matt