Armor vs Defence factor

[serg]

Can any1 explain for me difference
between armor and defence factor ?
Is armor vs missiles and def vs mlee ?
or defence vs both ?
Thanks
Serg

[Rob]

Armour protects a unit from arrow/musket fire, though I'm not sure about the effects in melee. Armour upgrades come from the armoury, and is not used in multiplayer games.

Defence factors are based on unit honour. All units have a basic defence rating (and an attack rating), and as their honour increases the defence rating increases also.

I seem to remember that most people believe that honour is more important than armour (meaning that it's more important to upgrade your dojos than build armouries).

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[Vanya]

I recall reading somewhere (can't remember where though) that one pt increase in honor gives the same defensive benefit as a 1 point increase in armor. However, the offensive benefit of 1 honor point exceeds the offensive benefit of a 1 point increase in weapons grade. Thus, it would seem that armories are good for D bonuses, while dojo upgrades give both D/A bonuses. The weapons upgrades seem to be the least worthwhile when compared to armories and dojo upgrades. Naturally, combining them is best if possible.

Correct me if I am wrong...

[Hirosito]

i don't know if you're wrong but what you day makes sense as you cannot build armories everywhere unlike swordsmiths. And dojos are best because a bad samurai will always blame his sword how bad was that

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent

[serg]

But if defence factor protect vs arrows why
units (without armor upgrade) have separate
stat dor defence and armor ?
for example AS have armor 2, and YA have armor 1, cavalry armor 3. Armor Ashiragu better than Yary, but Ashiragu have negative defence factor... Does it mean that Ahiragu better protected from fire ?

[TooCool]

I don't know how the game work really but maybe it's like "Warhammer": armor is like an "second chance" to avoid being hit. First, the attack factor is compared with the defence factor (in melee). If the attack is successful, the game tests the armor factor and if the attack is sucessful again, the defender is hit. This makes sence because a warrior whith low fighting ability (low defence factor) can be protected by a big armor (armor factor). An i think that defence factor is no used when attacked by arrow.

[Tenchimuyo]

I think better amrors make you less vulnerable to arrows and better weapon make it easier to chop your enemies' head off.

[Puzz3D]

TooCool: The published combat formula shows only attack and defense factors are used in hth combat. There is a bonus modifier for conditions which affect the unit's fighting ability. I believe armor is only used to reduce the effectiveness of ranged weapons.

A one point increase in honor increases a unit's attack factor by one. A two point increase in honor increases the attack factor by one and the defense factor by one. You used to be able to see this in the status display before the v1.11 patch broke it. I'm hoping the v1.13 patch fixes the display again.

[TooCool]

Thanks Puzz3D!
I didn't know about the formula. So Armor is only for ranged weapon? :-(
Now, i know what to do if my opponent has no or less ranged unit!

[The Black Ship]

Too Cool,
You mean the AI right, I'm sure you know that armor can't be bought in Multi-play, YET It does seem silly that if you upgrade a samurai's armor from say do-maru to yoroi it doesn't help his chances at hand-to-hand combat against a less upgraded foe

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Niger Navis Navis Sesquiculus ShipOfFear

[serg]

What is not realistic, that ashiragu have more armor then foot samurai without upgrade. I just don't see the reason for it...

[Tenchimuyo]

Maybe because they are less morally intact than the samurais so better armors make up for this diadvantage.

[Puzz3D]

TooCool: I'm wrong about armor not affecting hth. Check out the strategy guide at
http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/guides...un/p10_01.html

Defender's armor comes in as a negative combat situation factor in the attacker's calculation. It doesn't say by how much. That table also shows honor affecting the situation factor. Higher honor troops get a boost during both the attack and defend phases. This would account for why H7 Ashigaru do better against H2 Warrior Monks than the attack/defend values by themselves would indicate. That is H7 Ashi would be a 3/2 and H2 Monks a 6/3. The Monks should crush the Ashi, but they don't.

[TooCool]

Until the day before yesterday, i thought that armor give protection then i am told that they protect only against range weapon and now...
After all these months of gaming, we aren't sure if the armor give protection in melee combat or not! LOL!
But thanks for the information, Puzz3D!

[Puzz3D]

Serg: At the risk of causing more confusion, that online strategy guide gives YA armor=2 and YS armor=3. So, YA are not better armored if you believe that reference.

TooCool: From chapter 7 of that online guide:

"The attack and defense factor are used for hand-to-hand fighting only. Also, the armor statistics only affects ranged weaponry; its melee effect is already included in the defense factor."

The Battle Factors table talks about "extra" armor (from armory) coming in as a combat modifier. Maybe that's the source of the confusion.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I have always assumed YS have better armor than YA: YS are samurai, after all, while YA are poorly equipped peasants. In all my battles, I have never seen anything that would make me believe otherwise. If a unit of YS and a unit of YA are close together and under heavy bombardment from some ranged unit, the YA will, in my experience, always take higher casualties regardless of which unit the fire is targeted at.

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"If the choice is given between life and death, a samurai must choose death. There is no more meaning beyond this."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo: Hagakure

[BanzaiZAP]

I think I see confusion between "attack/defense" and "armor" and "Armor". The first (attack/defense) is the unit's base hand-to-hand combat abilities. The second (armor) is the unit's base defense against ranged attacks. The third (Armor) is a special addition you can build in the Campaign Game, which should add one point per level to both the defense of the first, and the armor of the second. In the Strat Guide it gives a separate bonus to the combat cycle if the defending unit has an Armor value.

It looks like that is holding true in my testing - the only way I've been able to test this is in a full campaign mode. I ran an unnecessary bridge attack, and had an armored yari unit and an unarmored yari unit stand next to the bridge and got nailed by enemy archers. The unarmored unit took more casualties. Then I let a full unarmored unit charge into H2H, then let an armored unit charge into H2H. Again, the unarmored unit took heavier losses. In fact, the armored unit drove off it's opponent, while the unarmored guys were forced back. Sure, it could be because of good (or bad) generalship on my part, but I like using Armor anyway.

-- B)

[This message has been edited by BanzaiZAP (edited 12-08-2000).]

[serg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BanzaiZAP:
[B]I think I see confusion between "attack/defense" and "armor" and "Armor". The first (attack/defense) is the unit's base hand-to-hand combat abilities. The second (armor) is the unit's base defense against ranged attacks. The third (Armor) is a special addition you can build in the Campaign Game, which should add one point per level to both the defense of the first, and the armor of the second. In the Strat Guide it gives a separate bonus to the combat cycle if the defending unit has an Armor value.


-- B)

Thanks BanzaiZAP
I see the light now :-)