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Thread: A possible new patch, Heavy Cavalry Version

  1. #1

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    I'm proposing a possible new patch for the EA, so that the online play will be more balance and the factor of warrior monk will no longer be just overwhelming at last.

    The main point in the patch is to anticipate the JHC.

    Japanese Heavy Cavalry is kind of useless to its role. It's just heavy and expensive, and does not kill nothing to its cost. Die pathetically to Yari Samurai is the destiny of any Cavalry Fighter, but they can't even make their bid to the infantry, and that's kind of too pathetic. While having a 33% price up to its colleagues the naginata cavalry, it does not seem to function as well as them.

    In additon, the naginata unit is an overestimated one by the EA. They don't move fast but tire fast, and it is not popular anyway.

    The light samurai is supposed to be an all-round unit. However, they cost friendly fire too easily, and their effectiveness does not really show up compared to a musket. They are supposed to excel over the muskeeteers, else why would they still be picked up.

    So here it goes the method for the MP:

    1. JHC +2 vs infantry, +3 vs foot archers
    2. Naginata costs only 400
    3. Increase the archer range 10%.

    Please post your comments and suggestions.
    Your assumption is invalid, so is your logical deduction.

  2. #2
    Member Member Muneyoshi's Avatar
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    1)Actually if you play them right JHC can be quite deadly.
    2)25 Koku would not do much and would be pointless to change this
    3)you say to increase archer range 10%, but really you think this would make any difference? And you say to change it yet give no reason why

    [This message has been edited by YagyuMuneyoshi (edited 10-04-2001).]

  3. #3

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    In response to

    "1)Actually if you play them right JHC can be quite deadly. "

    Relative to the Naginata Cavalry, JHC doesn't seem to worth its price.
    Also, you don't mention what you mean by playing them right? How?

    "2)25 Koku would not do much and would be pointless to change this"

    25/ 425 is about 6%; but when you upgrade the honor, the price "may" become 8% less, 10% less and so forth. It's not pointless if you think 1 naginata is equivalent to 2 yari samurai but since the price is 25 more, why would you choose naginata. A point differs in different reference, and that's my reference.

    "3)you say to increase archer range 10%, but really you think this would make any difference? And you say to change it yet give no reason why"

    I admited I didn't explain clearly.
    It's to give an "absolute" range advantage of archers over gunners (to make sure) so that archers doesn't become unvaluable, relatively, in my reference.
    And yes, I think this make great difference.
    Your assumption is invalid, so is your logical deduction.

  4. #4
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    archers already have a longer range than guns.

  5. #5
    Member Member kagemushashingen's Avatar
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    I am sorry but I beg to differ.

    Before the Xpack, JHC is by far the best unit on the field due to its speed and fighting prowess. Sure, leading a pack of JHC against enemy naginata and Yari samurais is a sure death..but no one use them like this, not even historically...They are used to flank and disengage, to rout the army.

    Now with the Xpack, I hardly use JHC anymore. It's the naginata cavalry that packs the punch for the value..

    Naginata troops are still very valuable for taking bridges and holding it while the projectile troops take on the enemy from across...I hardly use naginatas for front battles any way...if I encounter an enemy JHC on a plain field, I'll use my naginatas and warrior monks to take them on.

    I think archers already have very good range already...

  6. #6
    Member Member clink's Avatar
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    Naginata or Yari samuria paired off with warrior monks is an excellant combination. I'll ussually group the two together in deffencive mode,monks behind on engage at will, with naginata or yari in front on hold formation.
    They kick ass.
    JHC are too expencive for thier effectiveness.By rights they should be the cream of the crop in my army.

    [This message has been edited by clink (edited 10-04-2001).]
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  7. #7

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    Lol i propose to make ninja 25 koku more LOL JUST KIDDING , lets face it guys noone ever thought jc were worth it except for a select few, And those select few were veterans of the game ie magyarkhan and kocmoc now would these experienced players waste 600 koku???? NO! now if h cav are abit over priced who cares they are an old unit and werent really used that much i always used 1 but that was personal preference, i think its best to work on bugs like rout bug and the morale thing thats been sorted b4 we stat complaining over unit values, after all we CAN and have put unit restrictions on most games in the past even if its an unspoken rule most players agree to it. Now with regards to unit balancing this cant be seen over a few game but over a period of time i think we should really wait and see. When i used to face 10 monk 6 missle armies i used to quake in my boots and shout cheat NO HONOR!!! but after learning the game i used to smile and think to myself an easy win, Shogun is a game that takes time to learn and as such it will take a long time to propose unit value changes but in my opinion i say use the nag cav as your heavy cav maybe the vets will use the real h cav to make it more of a challenge

    PS: samurai archers main role was to turn the tide of a gun battle to u or reduce the manpower of monk and nodachi units, And yes lol naginta stink i used to us them to defend nagashima in the woods on hold formation and position and they were good at it, but only because i knew opponent had to take those woods at any cost.


    Swoooooooooooooooooosh!!!!!!!!!

    [This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-04-2001).]


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  8. #8
    Member Member DoCToR's Avatar
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    Wholeheartedly agree with you Matrix!

    JHC do stink, the new NC are basically what i think the initial HC were really intended to be like! See this thread for a good rant and rave about JHC: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002301.html

    Naginata suffer from the same frailties as the JHC although they do not get mashed by YS. They are too expensive and slow.

    Maybe instead of increasing archer range one might decrease the effectiveness, rate of fire or demoralising effect of the muskets?!





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  9. #9

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    Sheesh h cav have higher honor than most cav? then reduce honor by 1 see how h1 cav fare on the field for cost then judge them.


    Swoosh


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

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  10. #10

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    Thanks for all the supporters and also the dissidents.
    Here I have to clarify a few things.
    The idea to give more range to archers is about this...
    if a gunner want to shoot a archer, he/she has to sustain enough arrow before his/her bullets go to the others' body. This wouldn't be "fair" if you ain't being hit by one or two arrows and go to feed your enemy with bullets that has a more powerful destructing ability.

    Before the expack, the musket cannot fire in the rain, now, their costs are up but they can fire reasonably in the quite heavy rain and this subjectively is an overall improvement.

    The boost in archer ability also cause an effect in the role of naginata as they would be more essential in sucking up arrows.
    Now you can place your naginata in front of your archers. And they don't die to the musketeers provided with the range disadvantage, and they don't die easily to arrows becoz of their feature. Do you see the point?

    Btw, I am a veteran and have been suffering from the abused use of monks/ musketeers/ heavy cavalry. That's why I propose this change.
    Your assumption is invalid, so is your logical deduction.

  11. #11
    Member Member DoCToR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
    Sheesh h cav have higher honor than most cav? then reduce honor by 1 see how h1 cav fare on the field for cost then judge them.


    Swoosh
    [/QUOTE]

    Actually HC only have a morale value of 4 whilst the NC have 8! So NC are twice as likely to remain in battle than the HC...

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  12. #12
    Member Member Satake's Avatar
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    HC have always been of doubtful morale... I always laugh when reading the story about Takeda's heavy cavalry.. Together with the monks these have always been most unbalanced. A pitty , cuz if one unit should of been an uberunit it should have been heavy cavalry. The most expensive unit should be more feared in battle.

  13. #13
    Member Member DoCToR's Avatar
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    exactly Satake
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  14. #14

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    Lol dident know the nag cav morale was higher, But i really do think we are barking up the wrong tree with h cav, just an opinion h cav have always been a hard to use unit, I personally think the real problem is guns, Fire in rain, fire thru hills, And maybe u Stat peeps can help me out here, Do they kill faster now too? That applied with their morale loss at units they fire at makes a real unbalanced unit.


    Swoosh

    [This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-04-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-04-2001).]


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

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  15. #15
    Member Member DoCToR's Avatar
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    Aye Swoosh, actually agree with you this time

    Muskets are the only unit more in need of urgent attention than our dearly beloved useless HC!!
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  16. #16

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    Swoosh,

    I see people saying that guns are more effective now, but to me they seem to be the same as STW. I haven't tried to do any STW vs WE/MI quantitative testing on guns. If you field an SA against a musk on flat ground, you'll find that the SA unit can defeat the musk unit every time, but you have to rush the musk once your arrows are exhausted. If you are just going to sit back and shoot, then the musk is better. How you use the unit determines which one is better.

    Soly,

    The SA, CA and musk all have the same range. The arq has a shorter range. Look in projectiles.txt to see the range of the different weapons. I think a little longer range for the SA would make the game more interesting tactically, but, if you enhance them too much, they can easily become the unit that determines the battle's outcome.

    Doctor,

    Naginata and HC are defensive units. They are well suited to the defensive minded player. I almost never use them because I think offensive for the most part. However, I'll use naginata on maps where a certain point must be defended. I actually think naginata would be better priced at 400 koku, but it's a pretty minor adjustment from 425. The one honor point sellback for the HC helps take the sting out of their high cost. It always makes me feel uneasy when an experienced player shows up with HC. You can't write HC off as inferior if experienced players are using them.

    You really want to use units that suit your style of play, and don't use the ones that don't. Guns are the big exception. My experience is that you have to take at least 3 or 4 gun units in online battles with maybe 6 or 7 ranged units overall if you are planning to win the ranged battle. If you are expecting a rush, then stick to 3 or 4 ranged units so that you are not short on melee strength. If it's a heavily wooded map, then forgo the ranged units altogether.

    You can adopt a more passive posture, if you are gearing up for a ranged encounter, but keep your melee units out of the line of fire of enemy guns. If your army selection is more for hth combat, then I think you have to take the initiative right from the start or else you will be maneuvered into an unfavorable position by the enemy's ranged units. An exception would be maps with plenty of trees where a hth army could effectively play an ambush/waiting game.

    Matrix2,

    Yari infantry are supposed to beat cavalry. That keeps the cavalry from dominating the game. Cavalry is already very effective against SA, and also guns as long as you do not make a frontal charge.


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  17. #17
    Member Member Muneyoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Matrix2:
    Before the expack, the musket cannot fire in the rain, now, their costs are up but they can fire reasonably in the quite heavy rain and this subjectively is an overall improvement.[/QUOTE]
    Have you ever played with them in heavy rain?
    Apparently not because if you have you would notice that Musks take at LEAST 45 seconds to reload in any rain, except light rain.


  18. #18

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    I have once played them in quite heavy rain, they don't take 45 seconds to reload as I experienced, just about 17 or less. I don't know if your figures is right, but if mind is correct, then I think 17 seconds is good enough.
    Your assumption is invalid, so is your logical deduction.

  19. #19

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    How do you get Nag Calvary?
    Is it Mi or Warlord?
    Or can you get in the first game.
    Im a monkey 'till the end!

  20. #20

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    WE is STW+MI ,it's in the mi/we version
    Abandon all hope.

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