Back On missile troops

[hach]

following on from the extra long cavalry thread what do we think about missile troops?

these days i don't know what to do about missile troops especially gunpowder units.

i usually always go for archers as i know i can rely on at least some sort of missile attack in all weathers'which i can't with gunpowder units.though i must admit i get pissed off if it's bone dry and find my opponent bristling with guns.

generally as an attacker i prefer h2h units with little or no missile troops and as a defender about 1/3 missile troops.

i also know my archers will at least give a fair acc in h2h as well which the gunners won't.

but i get jealous of the gunpowder units endless ammo supply and ability to rout units in dry weather.

i am also talking fairly low honour here 2-4 as i only ever play 5000k games.
also as an attacker i try and always make it pissing down with rain which reassures my strategy of no missile units as an attacker while making his gunpowder units useless or archers less accurate/deadly.

opinions please especially on gunpowder units

hach

[BanzaiZAP]

If you're attacker, it's fun to choose NO missile units, and attack in heavy rains! Serious slaughter!

But closer to the topic, in a 16 unit army, I usually have 1-2 muskets, and 3 archer units. I still have the archer versatility, but I can use the muskets as a core, and deliver a nasty punch to the enemy's vanguard, or set them up off to a flank (with proper escort) and let them sit there and shell the enemy flank all afternoon.

Are gunpowder units worth it? I would not use them as a major part of the army - it's too easy to get hit by nasty weather, which renders them completely useless, or else slammed by cavalry. At least archers can hold their own in H2H, but muskets/arquebus are totally lame. If they have a clear shot, though, they are devastating, so I try to keep a couple of units, mostly for their "scare" tactic. Since I do mostly Single Player, I like to build them in provinces with an armory, that way they have an edge on defense, and can square off against archers better. MP, I'm not sure, but I'd still have a couple of units on hand for the BANG, since they are pretty cheap. I'd always have 3 archer units, though.

Archers are great, not only for their ranged attack, but for their H2H backup, too. Once they've shot their arrows, you can use them to soften up flanks, or throw them into the battle line to allow your spears a chance to reform. They'll be butchered pretty quickly against the Specialty units (no-dachi, monks...) but they'll take some of them down, too, and give you a bit more time to reorganize. Gunpowder units will panic almost immediately - darn peasants!

So there's my two koku.

-- B)

[hach]

just adding i think it's crazy when i read of guys having 4 or more gun units.

if it's raining a quarter of your units are basically out of the game.

hach

[theforce]

God l love guns. I was playing 1v1 on totomi the attacker make a huge cav attack. My 4 gun units started firing also the 2 archers started arrowing! Then 1st line went in front and face em, they fled before they could attack Main target is to have a well balanced projectile army so you can be always ready for any weather change.


[This message has been edited by theforce (edited 12-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by theforce (edited 12-08-2000).]

[hach]

wheres the replies?
i see 3'but there's none here??

[hach]

sorry the 3 replies have just appeared from the fog of my crap work computer

hach

[Slyspy]

I often use 3 or more gun units. Even when the weather is bad I have a balanced army which is still able to fight effectively and go on to win battles in the rain. My advice, like others here, always take at least a couple of gun units for their fear-factor and infinite ammo. If you do choose a fair number of guns, remember to take a couple of archer units so that if it does rain you still have some missile troops. The whole point of this game is that nothing should be left to operate on its own, all the units interact and support each other.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[The Black Ship]

You've never been frustrated by a camping defender on a hillside with 4-5 musket units I take it In fine weather, with competent support troops, that's an unbeatable combination.

I'd love to always pick rain/heavy rain to negate the "musket menace", but alas I can only get it to rain less than half the time

[Rob]

The problem with attacking in heavy rain is that it tires your men out, so the defender still gains an advantage from it.

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[solypsist]

I usually only use 1 or 2 gun units, and 1 archer unit, with some CA or YC depending on the size of the battle and the field.

I've had a few bad experiences playing against all-musket armies, you can imagine my displeasure at seeing 16 musket units on a flat field like Totomi. On a good day, I never make it across the field, or rout quickly soon after I make some initial contact. But on rainy days all-gun opponents just quit the battle without even setting up.

[Slyspy]

All very true! Thats the point with armies containing only one type of unit: its all or nothing. I've faced opponents with only assault troops in the rain and though "oh-oh, with no guns this could be a problem". But he just sat waiting on a hill top, my cavalry got behind him while my infantry attacked from the front and it was all over. But with more aggressive tactics (or a few yari units) he could have rolled me up.

As for the well supported muskets on the hilltop, yes I have encountered them, attacked them and usually lost to them. But that is the way it goes! Next time I may beat them (but probably not).

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Hirosito]

how effectively does the AI use guns i have never played them SP (i win before muskets arrive and arguebusque aren't worth it) and i'm a devout buddhist

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent

[barocca]

The AI is actually pretty lousy with guns,
online vs humans the guns appear even stronger than in campaign or custom battle mode.
They certainly inflict more casualties.

I think the trick with people who are heavy musket orientated is to get into contact with the muskets as fast as possible.
As soon as one musket breaks you need to 're-task' your unit to flank attack a neighbouring musket, don't worry too much about the opponent rallying them, you don't want your army getting scattered running out single units.

Keep the pressure up and keep your army together and you should be able to 'push' a heavily gun orientated army from the field.

As each unit breaks it will have a negative effect on any your opponent has managed to rally.
As for dealing with muskets on hills, you could try standing just out of range, make your opponent advance em a little, then back off, and make him do it again.
If he's careless they may get far enough away from support that a rush has a chance of catching them.

Remember in this game (unlike real life) The bullets stop in the first target they hit.
Meaning when rushing a musket numbers is the key, also several guns supporting each other won't significantly increase your casualities, cause some of them fire at the same target - always.

1 H0(honour zero) monk vs 1 H2 musket is suicide.
2 H0 monks vs 2 H2 muskets is an even contest.
3 H0 monks vs 3 H2 muskets = monks every time.

[Slyspy]

I'm no expert, but I believe that musket balls rarely passed through targets. The power of the weapon was not enough to resist the suction of the body, while the ball of soft lead flattened on bone. Not nice, but unlikely to hit the guy standing behind you!

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Widda]

I use 3 units muskets and they are a very effective force even in the rain... Just that most peeps have not learnt what it is they are good for...

I always chuckle to my self in the rain when my opp'nt sends his/her muskets forward as shock troops, what a complete waste...

DoragonWidda Daidoji .

[Shiro]

I'm also very fond on guns! In a 16 unit army I usually have 4 gun units. Some would find this excessive but I'm very fond of tactics that involve some form of hiding in the mountains. Guns are great for defending, while Heavy Cav. try and charge up a mountain in the bitter winter.
On a slightly different note, during the Campaign game it is often hard to get guns. The Dutch arrive late and the switch to Christianity is not worth it. Therefor when I play the campaign I outfit my armies with 3 or so Samurai Archers.
-Shiro

[hach]

widda

so how do you use muskets in the rain??
do tell!!!!

hach

[Didz]

I usually try for an even mix of guns and archers, 3 of each if I can afford it.

Rounded off with 2 YC, 3 YS and 3 ND or WM.

Oh! and a Nag unit for the general.

Mind you whe I'm feeling bored and just want a laugh I have been known to feild what I call my Napoleonic Army. 8 muskets units supported by 6 units of lancers and two of Heavy Cavalry.

You can almost hear your opponents jaw drop and I just love all the smoke.

Mind you it's a crap army to fight with against anyone who knows their stuff.

[Tenchimuyo]

Well during campaigns I always equip my 16 unit army with 8 archers and rest are YS or whatever. Since muskets come late.

[Slychaos]

Out of a 16 unit army I have 2 archers and 2 muskets, since most of the opposition I run into usually only have 13-15 units there isnt too great a loss in the wet.

One thing I recently found is, no matter what eliminate as many guns as you can with what ever ranged attacks you have. It really pulls down that rout likelyhood toward the end.

my 0.05p

[Widda]

As is seen with threads like 'Fleeing Bug', morale is an important factor in any battle and one which will win or lose the strugle. So, what is good for the morale of your troops. Having units in position to protect their rears and flanks, yes? They do a better job standing in these spots then fighting and my troops fight better and hold longer, while the musketeers threaten my opp'nts flanks lowering their morale causing them to break. Much better use then cannon fodder, yes?

Also if the enemy is completely engaded the muskets are quick on their feet and can charge around the flanks and hit the rear.
Giving away secrets like this, I don't know, it took months to figure out what the top 100 were doing to me. I just knew that it was hard to break their lines and couldn't figure why. Now we know...

DoragonWidda Daidoji .

[This message has been edited by Widda (edited 12-12-2000).]

[Slyspy]

I've used waterlogged musketeers to attack enemy units from behind before. The moment when the enemy unit breaks is one to be savoured. The only trouble is, the breaking unit normally flees straight though the heroic musketeers, hacking and slaying as they go! You do NOT want to be an ashigaru.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Widda]

The survivors are in a great position to chase the routing units and smack them samurai on the back of their heads with wet clubs...

DoragonWidda Daidoji .

[Ieyasu]

I always felt the key to missle units is the matter of range... that they can literally (in the case of archers) shoot over the bend of a hill or a break of trees.. essentially engaging the enemy before he even gets there. Invaluable... until the melee begins.

As Sly had mentioned already, I think the key is not to commit too many of your units to range weapons... to keep a balance to the power, per say. Muskets are an amazing attribute to affecting the morale of your enemy... the firing ranks of muskets have often changed the tide in what may seem like insurmountable odds (like one of those ridiculous all-monk charges). But muskets are at the mercy of weather, so there is the catch on how much one should commit.

Still, correct me if I'm wrong, but since Archers are still considered Samurai, don't they fight considerably better than the ashigaru musket ranks? This is as far as melee is concerned. In that sense, muskets to the rear or the flanks... archers to the mustard (when they run out of their arrows and stand there like spectators).

Oh, one other note: Range weapons are key to working at the patience of another general. Rain them with ranged fire and see how long he will sit, planted on his hill. In most cases, they will get fed up, and remove themselves from their advantageous positions... usually. In the end, it always buys you a little time to think of your next move, all the while you knock off some of their men in the process.

More food for the fire...

Cheers.



[This message has been edited by Ieyasu (edited 12-12-2000).]

[Hirosito]

what general would be sitting on a hill without missile troops? i mean thay have the range advantage surely its the guy at the foot of the hill who has to make the move?!?

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent

[Ieyasu]

"What gen would be on a hill without ranged weapons?"

A poor one. LOL

Yes, I realize that bit... and they would certainly have the advantage if you were below them, but I have seen gens move out of sheer impatience when they start to see men dying... and this was meant to be from a place other than at the bottom of the hill in question.

Thanks for pointing that out... sometimes I just type em out so fast, I don't always qualify everything.

[Tenchimuyo]

Since guns are this important, then maybe canons can be considered.

[Hirosito]

lol thought you might have not ment it that way but i see what you mean and agree with you

Tenchimudo

the way i understand it is that in the sengoku jidai period cannons did exist but only did they play an important role in the latter stages.
one of the last castle sieges (what's it called)
was won by the attacker because he had cannons

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent

[Puzz3D]

I like the way the game plays with archers, but a unit of archers usually cannot neutralize a unit of musketts, unless the musketts are unsupported and you can charge them. Once the archers are out of arrows you continue to take losses from the remaining musketts. This will force you to attack or withdraw even if you don't like the looks of either option. I'd say you need at least 2 musketts, and may want to gamble on 4 musketts unless you are sure of rain. If you do get caught with rain or snow, it may stop for a while and allow the musketts to fire. If not use them in a support roll as Widda suggests. It is important just to have them there for numbers. I think you can get the enemy to rout just by outnumbering them by about 2:1.

[Hoichi]

just read that both sides at 4th Kwanakajima had cannon. Only a few 6 or 8 pounders, but there nonetheless. Apparrently Japanese gunsmiths turned out cannons superior to Europeans in terms of metallurgy, but mobility was inferior.

Hoichi