Kataphraktoi

[kataphraktoi]

Concerning the Emperors and their major nobles I would assume it depends on where they are in the fighting, either in the front or commanding in the background.

Emperors would in all likelihood wear the standard heavy cavalry equipment of the Kataphraktoi same as nobles as well, Byzantines specificed equipments for certain troops for certain roles, the nobles could either be in the shock troops or officer role in battle. It varies.

I did not cast doubts on the later western knights equipment I merely tried to point out that the Klibanophoris were just as well equipped to deserve their particular stats. Byzantine equipment was off high quality as well, soldiers were paid well by the Byzantines to afford high quality.

Sacred design rules don;t play a part in the stats I try to reflect their practical abilities and function, as I said before in the README change the stats to ur pleasure, I did that because I knew people wouldn;t agree with me, I didn;y agree with them either thats why i revised them over time, I accept that people change them but I any cahnges I make I stick with them with the weight of careful deliberation behind. So I can accept the changes you made without having to agree with them.

Byzantine cavalry are as follows in my mod byz cav, kat and klib.

Standard byz cav was the thematic cavalry but the Kats and the Klibs are tagmatic cavalry.

Thematic are the common types

Tagmatic are tyhe elite types, thats why they can only be produced in certain provinces.

you 'll find with my mods I tell people to change the stats if they want but don;t expect me to agree with them.
I have my reasons they have their reasons, i just want people to enjoy the choice of the military units, whatever stats they want to suit the game is their own business.

I am glad you have done so and more importantly used it for your own game, it shows people take interest.

[KurnoustheHunter]

Hey Kata,

Thanks for understanding my Point of View. I'm glad you created the units in the first place

About Byzantine Cav thanks for clearing it up. Today I was thinking about it at work and I was going to design three types of units. The Basic Byz Cav I thought must have been local (Thematic).

That lead me to think that an 'upscale' version would be available to Tagmatic forces. Indeed some Warhammer Ancient Battles lists I've seen on the internet have represented 10th Century Byzantine Cavalry this way.

I believe then that True Kataphroktoi can then be represented. 8/3/4/6/4 with bows or even 8/3/5/7/4 with bows (both normal speed).

Klib's will then be the AP super heavies which would also be slow.

Question is...how are you going to represent Tagmatic force avialability? obviously they were based in Constantinople. would you limit them to being built there? Or would you develop a unique building based in a capital (As Wes from WesW Mod has?). just wondering how you ave done it.

anyway again my time is up.

Again hope all goes well with the mod, and...ill be happy to test it.

[kataphraktoi]

cool man me thinks we kinda got carried away with the mod issue......


With Tagmatic availability I restricted the Kats to Constantinople and the Klibs to Nicaea, with the Klib its a handicap, I have my startpos settings on the Alexius Comnenus period which means Nicaea is in Turkish hands and also heavily fortified keeping mind Nicaea was an important Seljuk capital at that time, that means u won;t get a head start in Constantinople because u can't train Klibs in Constantinople.

The best cavalry came from Asia Minor so i thought making the Klibs come from Nicaea the most prosperous part of Asia Minor would be suited to the expenses of raising such cavalry.

Since the Klibs were destroyed in Manizkert I thought that the resurrection of them could only occur once the Byzantines seized back substantial parts of Asia Minor and sustained some sort of stability to rediscover their lost military prowess. Well thats the them of the Alexius Comnenus setup,. i decided not to make a Alexius COmnenus mod, really its only a change in start position of each faction, nothing really spectacular, it reflects history and provides a damn good challenge as well, mainly prolonged attrition in Asia Minor before a decisive battle against the Turks opens up Asia Minor.

[Galestrum]

Geeesh thats alot to catch up on hehe , well i am back just finished my final final at univesity and ill be graduating with my 2 degrees

ok ill try to address things in a logical way, so here goes

First i have (2) mods going, one is my Alexius Mod & the other is the 889 AD campaign with Kata here. Both are basically done, all i need to do is get Katas new units, test them and place them and once everything seems hunky dorey it will be released.

Next, a historical question regarding the byzantine army post-manzikert. I think Kata summed it up real good, but i will expand. As Kata said, almost the entire byzantine force post manzikert was merc oriented to some degree. Turks, pecenegs etc composed the light cav, with roman nobles and western knights being the heavy cavalry. Conscripts were usually light infantry/archers. If you want i can get more in depth, but suffice to say, for the purposes of this thread Byz army post manzikert = mercs from many many different lands, with a core of roman nobles.

Regarding the 889 Mod

After exhaustive research, in books, magazines, online etc, i have come up with the best idea of the Theme armies that i can. Basically the theme armies are you Byz Cav, Byz Inf and Treb Archers, with everything else being the Tagmata.

Regarding the Kliv Stat discussion, the Kliv were every bit the equal of late western knights, and their armor was as good and probably superior in many ways, beyond protection. I am not worried about "balance" in this mod from the standpoint of "we cant make this unit powerful, just because the west cant match it until the 1300s". My intent here is to reflect history in terms of econmy, military, diplomatic and geographical power.

Now the Kliv unit, will of course be balanced in that, it will be costly, and extremely limited in production. For instance, Tagmata units will be restricted to production in Constantinople OR the highest level fortifications. Tagmata forces will be costly to produce and maintain. The fact of limited production plus high costs, balances very well against their "leetness" if you catch my drift. Yeah Kliv may roll over a Knight unit or two, but if the Byzantines lose a Kliv unit they are decimated, whereas other factions will be able to churn out top notch units far more easily.

Additionally, as stated earlier, the whole spearmaker etc production line has been eliminated, production is based on fort size, with a few other tweaks. To reflect the byzantine situation, all Tagmata and Theme units will need relatively high degrees of production (high level forts and royal palaces etc) whereas feudal and arab units are generally lower down on the production scale.

Are the Byzantine Units, early on far superior to other factions, Yes. However, they now face, relatively more powerful foes, have less land (based on history) and therefore less money, and there frontline units req relatively higher production and cost alot more.

This mod is not intended to be a cakewalk for the Byzantines, quite to the contrary, if anything, it is meant to be a nigh impossible and far more challenging than what CA gave us in the original.

Quote[/b] ]oh yeah one more thing I have klibanophoriarchers made already I don;t know whether to include this in or not

Klibanophori archers made up 1/3 of the a Klibanophori unit.

Kliv/Klib units had 1/5 being archers. Now i have a Klib unit and a Kliv already. What I have done is given the archer unit to be the "royal" unit, whereas your unit Kata, is the standard unit. Seems to work out pretty good to me, from when i have played.

Also one other note, in the Alexius Mod, all units, even Kilv are available for production, merely because the Kliv arent attested to after Manzikert, does not mean that they couldnt have been rebuilt. The byzantine army merely chose a new way of being, the themes could have been brought back, they chose not to. I have read a few books and articles, the reasons for going from byzantine armies to merc armies are many and varied, but ill leave that discussion for a later date.

[kataphraktoi]

Now its my turn to be overwhelmed with work at uni. for the next month I have assignments to hand in every week at the rate of one a week, three essays..........major third year essays.

Yeah bout the new units, its been frustrating wait for me as well, after getting everything together I will release it tonight, thats right, tonight. After testing it already I am convinced it will work, i have taken the responsibility of adjusting the stats myself.

Heres de following approved and final list:
Khwarazmian cavalry with bow, lance and axe
Kataphraktoi with bow
Klibanophori shock troopers
Slav Infantry javelin men
Serbian Brigands
Croatian Brigands
Magyar Cavalry
Pecheneghorsearcher
Monk assassin
Ghazi Cavalry
anything more than this is a bonus........

A special favour Galestrum can u adjust the stats so that Magyar cavalry become the Hungarian faction leaders unit in the early period, after that royal knights take over in the high and late period. I have already set the Nag's stats for this u only need to adjust the stats for the royal knights selection as the faction leader.

[KurnoustheHunter]

Heya Guys

I'm very excited about about these mod's Kataphraktoi my thinking is almost along the same lines as yours.

Today at work I was thinking about Byzantine modding in general. I wanted to make them as realistic as possible.

Here are some of my thoughts

a) Limit Tagmata units to regions and/or special buildings.
My thought process led me to think up the following.

i) Kataphraktoi unit (med-hvy Cav with bow-royal unit)
Constantiniople only.

ii)Klib unit in Rum only (doesn't make much sense but
wasn't Rum the major source of horse for Byzantines?)
Anyway I have decided after reading Kataphratoi's
post that Nicea is much more appropriate and is more
representive of history.

iii)Tagmatic (or Imperial) Skutatoi unit is Anatolia
only. (basically excellent spearmen unit)

b) Use the militia buildings for Byzantines
Level 1 - Theme Training ground
Level 2 - Theme Base
Level 3 - Tagmata Base

This would then lead to requirements for Theme units such as Byzantine Cav, and Thematic Skutatoi (slightly better then Feudal Sgts - 5/0/0/2/0) etc

What this would do is make the theme and Tagmata systems an option however the infrustrature to rebuild would be great, take quite a while (in addition to normal building requirments) AND the fact that you have to take them from Modded Turks. Again I had the idea to mod them in early to have Anatolia and others.

Just some idea's I'm throwing around.

Looking forward to more idea's and responses

Mike

[kataphraktoi]

With Skutatoi I limited them to Asia Minor not a specific region although I did give bonuses to Skutatois trained in Anatolia. Asia Minor was a major source of excellent soldiers so i decided agaisnt limiting it to one region.

Also for Varangians Guards I limited them to the Crimea and Constantinople and gave a bonus for Crimean trained Guards.

I don;'t mind requirements taking a long time to fulfill as long as they are set in an earlier time than 1087, eg. 1081 the year Alexius Comnenus became Emperor or even earlier like the 889 mod.

Oh yeah I added Rus native infantry with polearms/halberdiers, I think that the Halberdiers untsi they have is just ridiculous so I made an indigenous Russian infantry, they are guardsmen, with the same fierceness as the Varangians they however disadvantaged by having no armour.

[kataphraktoi]

Nicaea would of been an ideal place to train troops, its closeness to the center ensured they kept in touch with innovations, their distance too from the frontiers also meant that the annual arab raids rarely damaged or effected them although arab naval raids did effect the coastal areas.
On the other hand frontier troops in Anatolia were much more tougher and rugged, Anatolia in this case a perfect training ground for Skutatoi.

Galestrum's idea of making Byzantine troops expensive is an excellent idea, I did it too to MTW, I doubled the price and made the starting treasury at 2000 florins.

[KurnoustheHunter]

A quick Question for you guys, the byzantine experts that you are.

At the very start of the standard game in early (1091?) what is the historical situation of the byzantines?

It seems as though they have too much territory especially in Asia Minor.

Wouldn't the armenian states, Rum and Anatolia be turkish as well as Antioch?

what do u guys have in your own mods?

thanks for any help,

Mike

[kataphraktoi]

In 1091 the Byzantines had just defeated the Pechenegs at the battle of Levunium, a decisive battle taking the Pechenegs out of the Balkan equation for at least 30 yrs.

Byzantium still maintained most of the Balkans with Croatia the only vassal breaking away.

In Asia Minor the Byzantines had outposts on the coast and in the pontine city of Trebizond.

For my "mod" I don;t consider it a mod in the sense of a MTW mod, I gave Nicaea, Anatolia, Rum, Trebizond, Armenia, Georgia, Antioch, Edessa, Syris, Tripoli, Jerusalem to the Turks, Lesser Armenia was under independent Armenia princelings so therefore free.

if u do choose to start in the default date 1087 Antioch was in Byzantine hands albeit independent Byzantine separatist hands. In 1084 Antioch fell to the Turks.

[kataphraktoi]

update I got problems uploading files onto my server....

[kataphraktoi]

Links

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...anBrigands.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...ianCavalry.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...horiarcher.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...uniqueunit.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Monk.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...sguardsmen.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...anBrigands.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...avInfantry.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...henegnoble.zip

Klibanophoriarcher is for someone else who requested it.

[KurnoustheHunter]

Wow Kata

You handicap the Byzantines THAT MUCH???

I thought that they still held Nicaea and perhaps Trebizond. I knew that Georgia and Anatolia are just CA's flights of fancy...but geeezzzz.

So let me get this straight....

Starting early period....Byzantines had as far as I can gather...

1. Constantinople (no brainer)
2. Bulgaria (Which should really be very rebellious)
3. Serbia
4. Nicaea (which u gave to the turks&#33
5. Greece (perhaps Normans still held it in reality?)
6. Naples
7. the islands (crete and one other? perhaps cyprus?)
8. Trebizond?

Anymore?

Perhaps it would be more useful to define Asia Minor and bordering middle eastern states, in terms of what was 'independent' turk, and egyptian. It seems Antioch and Armenia can be made independent.

Perhaps I should just wait for the mod. I'm most interested (At the moment at least) in a general Byzantine 'enhancement' mod without going back in time.

Just one other question. What files do I need to mod to actually have a new series of buildings?

basically the same as the TOWN_WATCH series of buildings but distinctly byzantine. I know Crusader_uni_prod13 (or similar file) has the building sets but I suspect other files would need to be modded if possible (at least to establish a relationship with the building Graphic.

For now
TOWN_WATCH1 "Town watch" will serve as "Theme Training Ground"
TOWN_WATCH2 "Town Guard" will serve as "Theme Base
TOWN_WATCH3 "Town militia" will serve as "Tagmata Base
TOWN_WATCH4 "County militia" will serve as "Tagmata HQ"

or something similar. Tommorow I'll post my idea's on how to implement the Thematic and Tagmatic System if anyone at all is interested

Till then take care everyone and I hope all goes well (including all those Uni assignments)

As a side note I graduated this evening *YAY* *sigh* I miss the place. Live it up whilst you can

again thank you all for this great thread and take care,

Mike

[kataphraktoi]

Well Kurnous thats how decisive Manizkert was....

Here are the provinces of the Byzantines in the early period:

Constantinople
Crimea (Cherson and Theodosia) important Byzantine outpost strategically and economically
Bulgaria (fairly settled despite pre-1071 rebellions)
Serbia (kept under vassalage)
Naples I made it rebellious to represent internal Norman problems, in 1071 Bari fell that was the last part of byzantine italy, after that Byzantium never had a permanent foothold in Italy. Giving Naples to Byzantium is an obvious error.
Greece Norman wars haven;t started yet so still in Byzantine hands.
Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus still in byzantine hands
Trebizond represents the Pontic region, sicne most of it was in Turkish hands it seemed appropiate to give it to them.
Nicaea was the Seljuk captial of the SUltanate of Rum how could I not give it to them?
Oy yeah I gave the Turks a fleet, Emir Chaka of Smyrna used them in the 1080's to raid Byzantine islands posing a threat to Constantinople and its fleet.

This is a big handicap but one in which victory is possible, I tried it a lot of times and if u are a wise crafty greek u may earn glory from a hopelss situation.

Hint: build a strong formidable army of 2 royal units good number of byzantine infatry, archers and horse archers under a damn good general, invade Nicaea and wait for a defensive battle in which a Turkisj army 2-3 times the size of urs will try to defeat u. If u succeed and crush the Turks in Nicaea the whole od Asia Minor is at ur mercy, basically a Manizkert in reverse...........

I crushed the Turks in Nicaea and swooped upon Anatolia and Trebizond quickly and pushed my borders to Rum and Armenia in no time.

Reality bites.......

I'm not involved in the buildings requirements stuff, discuss that with Galestrum......modding units is already confusing me enuff.....w

I kept everything normal, the current is ok, with the tagmatic units I only added extra cost and building requrements for the klib....

I still have to upload ghazi cavalry, I got problems trying to get that file online. man that ghazi cavalry is a pain on the battle field.

[kataphraktoi]

yo Galestrum u got de files yet????

I got everyfile online cept the Ghazi cav got some probs with that, should be online sometime this week.

[kataphraktoi]

A note Kurnous, i recommend the Tagmata be produced in 1 or 2 provinces.

my dog stinks

[KurnoustheHunter]

Hey Kataphraktoi,

I just completed my 'mod'. its playable but alittle on the dodgy side.

My tagmatic infantry can only be built in Anatolia.
The Klib's (Which I enhances from my previous version a touch) can only be produced in Nicaea.

The Kata's can only be produced in Constantinople.

Thematic infantry (i.e slightly upgraded Feudal Sgt, Urban Militia and archers) can only be produced in asia minor.

As a side note, did a Kataphraktos actually carry lance bow and shield into battle? Just an important question so i can be accurate with my version (Which has lance and bow but no shield at the moment).

Anyway thanks for all the help guys.

cheers,

Mike

[kataphraktoi]

There are Kataphractos lancers and kataphractos archers,a composite lance and bow Kataphractos is more a product of military manuals than actually practice, although I wouldn;t rule them out and there are cavalrymen who are quite capable of using both weapons.

[komninos]

Hi kataphraktoi,

I think I can manage to get sutch a unit out. I need to do a drastic change to the Version of Unit-Tool I am using now. I need a unit like that for armenian light cavalry used in my Persian wars. They used compisit bows from a distance, charged with lances, and then fought it out with axes. - neet isn't it??? -
I will introduce a charging weapon to the Exel file and see what happens from there

[kataphraktoi]

Komninos I already made those mods, Kurnous was talking bout the actual Byzantine cavalry units.

I had a Kataphraktoi unit with Shortbow and lance and quite happy with it.

[komninos]

Well ... we have to wait for the VI ... they are changing soem parts of the Unit file and all has to be re built.
They had two or three medium cavalry units the problem is they changed them in time so you can't be 100% OK. And with the fall of Constantimupol they introduced the Latinikon which were western kights.

Any way I have to make a zip with my slingers to complement the Byz army.

[Galestrum]

hey guys, i havent gotten VI yet, and after looking at all the units and stuff they added, i wanna get VI and add those units and see what else they changed before i release the mod, just wanted to let you all know I havent forgotten about this.

later fellas

[komninos]

I have made an exelent map for the East ... it is realy big and for a different period than MTG (A mod of mine looking at 450BC) But I can't parse it corectly (LMM crashes) I can get it to work a realy nice campaign in the east can be made

[KurnoustheHunter]

HI guys,

Got the expansion. Seems quite cool though limited as for improving the normal game.

Two Questions. Where do Byzantine Lancers come into the scheme of things? Are they really Thematic Cav, or plainly the lance armed Kata's (As opposed to kata's really being like Klibs?) damn got to go. cyas

[kaaskop]

hey you mind if i punch in a little question ,you
seem to be the right guys to ask .

on a war site i came across Kataphraktoi on armoured camels. Is this a unit the byzantines actually used
on a regular basis ? It woul be a very cool unit
altough incredibly slow

[ick_of_pick]

Hi guys, i havnt been here in a while, but im also very interested in the Byzantine Empire, and acctually had some Byz units already, products of some of my other byz loving friends...they include da klivs (heavily armoured horse archers with swords i think, they look like a cross between a boyar and a kata), hoplites (which i question), immortals (which i question even more), Trapeziowhatsits (they're like spannish jinetts), Skutkatoi (tough peasants), Mentavaoti (pikemen), and maybe some more, but i cant remember, my e-mail is rickeshoo@hotmail.com i can send them to you to take a look at cause i have problems uploading...

ick

[KurnoustheHunter]

First of all, to finish off my last post.

I believe I originally asked where Byzantine Lancers came in the scheme of things in reality. Interesting unit in the game though. Decent support for Byzantine Cavalry and good light/medium (better then mounted sgts), though I wonder if players will use them as the far superior Latin knights are available, with a VERY handy valour bonus in Nicaea.

My second question is how people feel about Armoured spearmen not being given to Byzantium. I developed my own Skutatoi, Thematic being 5/0/0/2/0, Basically a slightly armoured spearmen or more accurately +1 def. +1 Arm. on top of Feudal Sgts.

Now I see Armoured Spearmen, and their look doesn't look that dissimilar to what I imagine Skutatoi (especially thematic) would have looked like. I feel that Byzantium may have been ripped off. However I always have the option to remedy this problem now that I know how to Mod.

Again much thanks to Kataphraktoi I will make them a seperate unit in Crusaders_unit_prod11 file and of course make them available in Asia Minor only with the edition of a Level 2 Town watch and level 1 armourer. This will help keep Byzantium "in balance" whilst providing some extra "realism" i.e. If byzantium does recapture and re-develop asia minor then it would have been able to again build thematic units though I'm not sure if they would have?

This would make an interesting point of speculation. After Menzkirt if the byzantine's did in the next 50-100 years drive the turks back and re-establish imperial rule, what would have happened? would they find an unwilling and demoralised population that would make recruiting and army there unfeasable? would the population be generally co-operative or fierce independent minded, though jaded and shattered? Even If say they re-established rule to a willing populace that rejoiced, then would have the byzantines CHOSEN to once again raise Infantry levies from regions like Anatolia or would they have gone the path of near all cavalry armies and/or mercenaries as they seem to have historically. Very Interesting.

But in the context of the game and in the mod, its up to the PLAYER to make these decisions so I would like to have the option. Of course if I was to give the byzantines these extra unit types I would be forced to go back and mod the expanded version of the game in the same way I did the original *mod now defunct *

That would mean;
Naples- given to Sicilians
Trebizond, Georgia, Lesser Armenia and Anatolia (did i miss any?) given to the turks with substantial forces in each.

All I can think of. Oh and as another BTW to everyone out there, I tried in the Early period to give Crimea over to the Byzantines. The mod crashed. It doesn't 'belong' to anyone in the text file, not even rebels Agggghhhhh well. anyone else had success? please say so if you have

Anyway hope all goes well with everyone. Oh sorry, and in reply to ick_of_pick, please send me your units. brebrich@ihug.com.au

However I would question hoplites *GREATLY* and Immortals and Mentavaoti even more.

Anyway cya's all later,

Mike

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (KurnoustheHunter @ May 17 2003,10:08)]My second question is how people feel about Armoured spearmen not being given to Byzantium.

I was really dissapointed. I had been looking forward to finally having a decent counter to heavy cavalry with thos armored spearmen but instead got round shield spearmen. is the only difference between a vanilla spearmen and round shield type the shield? Gah I'm angry.

[komninos]

Hi,

I will post the in time a set of Byzantine Units. The Byzantine infantry has been changed the good shock unit with spears and a large heavy shield, the Aligion now is transformed in to a knight, shock cavalry, using bows, maces and a lance for charging. I today I will make a swords man out of the Viking BIFs with a round Byzantine shield.

The Byzantine cavalry will be made in to light Armenian cavalry similar to the Aligion but lighter over all.

I still need to port my slingers from the original game to close it.

[kataphraktoi]

Hey guys anyone downloading the mods for the gale's mod make sure u use the "save target as" by right clicking.

If u click to download it you will see a page saying "sorry"

STUPID YAHOO, STUPID YAHOO

Skutatoi all the way, these fellas are the professional heavy infantry spearmen of the army, they are better than byzantine infantry because of their front rank status, they are therefore heavily armoured and armed.

the harder u make byzantium mods the better a challenge guranteed, I like hamstringing them by giving the turks the provinces which they need to train their elite units.