battle calc shows hold formation useless?

[obrian]

Using the battle calculator it would seem holding formation is useless. Any increase in "chance to kill%" is offset by enemies increase in "chance to kill%".
Am I reading this thing wrong??

[Puzz3D]

That's the way the formations work. Wedge gives +3 bonus when your man attacks, but it also gives +3 bonus when your opponent's man attacks. Hold formation gives -2 bonus both ways as well. Formations don't make your units fight better, just differently. Use the wedge to accelerate the fight, and use hold to slow it down.

There is one advantage to hold formation pointed out, I believe, by longjohn2. Fatigue is a global parameter for the unit, and is the average of the fatigue of each man in the unit. A unit in hold formation usually has most men not fighting when engaged. Therefore, it's average fatigue drops more slowly than a unit in engage at will formation. Fatigue introduces a negative bonus on the combat calculation during your attack cycle, and your defend cycle. At very tired, your looking at a 4 point disadvantage against a quite fresh unit, and a 2 point disadvantage against a quite tired unit. Each point represents about a 20% disadvantage.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Khan7]

Well, this is all fine and well, except that IN REALITY a spear formation should suffer *greatly* unless in "Hold Formation".

Instead, all of my tests have shown a noticeable advantage to engage-at-will when using spears in a standard, charge-on-charge situation. Hold formation added to hold position is the way to go if statically defending, say a bridge opening or a hill, but even then almost entirely because you don't want your guys to straying onto the bridge or down the hill, losing their advantage.

So in the original game, it's 6.5 for one, eleven-twentifourths of a dozen for the other.

But with some modifications I've been working on..

Matt

[jomni]

I seldom use HOLD FORMATION because I figured only the front rank will be engaged in combat, lessening the unit's killing potential while the enemy will chop be down one by one. Am I right on this?

[Papewaio]

Try;
Nags on hold and Nods with Wedge... you enhance their natural advantages.

Or you can mute thier disadvantages by;
Nods on hold and Nags with Wedge.

I agree that the formations should give different benefits according to the unit type ie charging a spear unit on hold formation should be a quick way to reincarnation.

The spears should suffer but not *greatly* when not in hold formation... the reason being these spears are not 20ft long sharp points... but depending on the region 6 to 15ft short/long & sharp points/ mini naginatas (swords). It might be interesting if weapon length and formation could be seen to interact more *and* have the ability to buy different length spears... short slashing spears for forests and mountains... long pointy pig stickers for those flat green planes...

I use hold position with my weaker troops so they can survive long enough for better troops to come through and save their hides. I also use wedges when chasing fleeing enemies [btw is it my imagination or do they run faster when in wedge] or need to kill an opponent quicker... try using a wedge on hold formation at a bridge... weird but interesting.

------------------
Victory first, Battle last.

[NinjaKilla]

Very interesting discussion and I would appreciate it if any of you other guys could share your thoughts.

What is the actual combat bonus difference between Hold Formation and Hold Position. I usually put my Ys on the latter however I don't think it makes much difference. As for wedge, it seems that if you are attacking it is all good, however if you are attacked you are bolloxed. However what happens if a unit in wedge formation is already engaged and is attacked - does it suffer the penalty as if it were in wedge or is this negated because the formation has broken in combat?

Thanx

EDIT: sorry, I'm talking old Shoggy (if it makes a difference)

------------------
There's only one SHOGUN: TOTAL WAR

[This message has been edited by NinjaKilla (edited 10-16-2001).]

[Katama-san]

Hi all,
Papewaio -
I've noticed that wedges tend to reform faster than standard box formations. Maybe that's why they look like they run faster in pursuit.
By the way, does anybody know if wedges have 'flanks'?

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Hold position is for the unit itself
Hold formation keeps a GROUP of units in the same place perspective to the center of the group.

I often combine the two - especially with ranged units. Hold formation is great for spears and naginata.

One note on maximizing your kills when the enemy routs. Most hold a unit or 2 or yari for just that moment - put em on WIDE and you get more kills...
try it sometime

Qapla!

------------------
BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[BakaGaijin]

No offence, but that's not even CLOSE to right. Hold Formation is a neutral posture for your units. They will neither run out to engage the enemy as in Engage at Will nor run away as with arches in Skirmish. What they WILL do is do their best to sit still and attack any enemies who approach them. Good defensive stance, but not so great for attacking.

------------------
Disappear into the Darkness!!

[tootee]

I have always thought hold formation is to.. er.. hold the formation? lol This prevent individual enemy from flank/rear attacking the unit's individual troops, e.g. YS vs YC in hold formation wouldn't get into a mass-orgy with the YC... u know in mass-orgy, everyone is doing everyone is all direction (I do ). Thus hold formation minimise individual YS being attacked from the flank/rear.


--tootee aka goldfish shimazu

[Swazza-kun]

sorry... that didn't seem to make the slightest bit of sense.

[Papewaio]

I think what the goldfish is saying is that;

in hold formation they fight as a formation, otherwise they disperse into a melee of individual combatants which exposes their backs [and the backs of their opponents].

------------------
Victory first, Battle last.

[Matrix2]

Use hold formation when you are attacked by multiples. Use wedge when you attack by multiples. That's the force in the battlefield.
Use hold position when you gain a bonus in the position, or lose a bonus without the position. Use hold formation and position at the front and flank with normal or wedge. This is the tactics in the battlefield.

[NinjaKilla]

We can all see what Hold does on the battlefield, but what is the effect on combat bonuses? Seems like no one really knows.

Where's Kocmoc when you need him?

------------------
There's only one SHOGUN: TOTAL WAR

Ok, a release of a common known tactic now...

Group a line of defensive troops (normally YS but also Nag are good) and put them on hold formation. Let them engage with the enemy. They will hold long and you will gain time. In that time get your shock troops (nods, monks, cavs) to flank. When the flanking is ready you are free to make the defensive troops back at engage at will.

Hold position is a different thing...it is used for missiles not to run over the map to shoot a unit...they would only shoot when they get in range. And if they move they will go back to their original position.

Tera

------------------
Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here!
Evil is within us...

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Baka - your right - I got them backwards LOL!!!
Oh well - it was late and I was sleepy.
Qapla!

------------------
BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[whyidie]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
Baka - your right - I got them backwards LOL!!!
Oh well - it was late and I was sleepy.
Qapla!
[/QUOTE]

Qalpa ? Isn't that Klingot ?

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:

Hold position is a different thing...it is used for missiles not to run over the map to shoot a unit...they would only shoot when they get in range. And if they move they will go back to their original position.

Tera
[/QUOTE]

no wonder my SA/musk always run off with the enemy.. I forget to nail them to the ground..
arrrggh

-tootee aka goldfish shimazu

[BakaGaijin]

No worries, Skkzarg.

Hold position for ranged units is incredibly useful... but not always. All those ranged units standing still present their flanks readily. They DO seem to hold up longer against frontal assaults in Hold Position, though. Just recently, I was fighting a battle in SP with a mostly-gun army versus a mixed enemy. 120 Teppo Ashigaru on a hill position were able to hold up under an attack by 60 MONKS(!). They took heavy losses, but they didn't break. Granted, the general unit (more arqs) was standing right behing them and firing into the monks the whole time, but it does seem that Hold Position and Hold Formation give a little morale boost.

The one problem with Hold Position *MAY* be a bug of some sort. In the same battle described above, I had much trouble getting the arqs to rotate and change facing to attack different targets. I usually ended up having to order them to attack a target which was on their flank, and they would fire at it from their same position, without turning the formation! For some reason, that actually worked, though.

------------------
Disappear into the Darkness!!