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Thread: Difference between Armour and Defense

  1. #1
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    Ok, this is something that I haven't figured out yet. It seems that when my troops have armour, they get a +1 to both defense and armour (when you press F1 in the battle screen). How does armour differ from defense? Are they both the same?

    Same with weapon upgrades, they add to attack as far as I can tell.


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    Member Member ltj's Avatar
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    armor means they can "take more damage/won't get pierced by arrows as easily", while defense is a bonus to a mode of combat.

    i think.

  3. #3
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Close...

    Armour is affecting only missiles and how fast a unit will tire.

    Defence is how good a unit is at defending (staying alive) in combat.

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  4. #4

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    I think it affects more than just missiles. When you look at piercing units such as Pikemen, you will notice that they have "Bonus vs Armoured Troops", meaning their weapons are effective against heavily armoured troops.

    So I think armour does have an effect on melee damage as well.

  5. #5

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    so u want 2 have enuf armour 2 stay alive longer, but not so much as to affect your fatigue so much??

  6. #6
    Member Member DrD's Avatar
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    Well,


    Defense value takes into account armor, horse armor, and shield. However, if you're attacked in the flank your shield doesn't count and you get a penalty (-2 defense for large shield, -1 for small.) So all other things being equal, it's better to have high armor and no sheild than medium armor and shield, both will have same defense from the front but not from the back.

    Also, armor piercing weapons give a bonus to attack based on armor. So in this case, it's better to have more of your defense come from shield and less from armor so attack bonus is less.

    Finally, horse armor is best of all, because that part of your defense is not affected by armor piercing or facing.

    As for fatigue, this is true, but I don't know the details.

  7. #7
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Well... If you upgrade armour then you will gain +1 to both Armour and +1 to Defence. But the units inate Armour has nothing to do with melee combat, besides fighting units with armour piercing.

    The worst scenario possible is a highly armoured unit with a low defence going up against a unit with armour piercing. But mostly armoured units have good denfence, so you can often guess the defensive strength by the armour, but not always.

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  8. #8
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    I'm a bit confused by all this as well. The Strategy Guide has a section titled "How the Combat System Works" on pages 51-57, which goes into how the odds for 1 guy to kill another are calculated. However, the only mention this makes of armor rating is in how armor-piercing weapons work.

    This section obviously doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, it just skims over "push back". So maybe armor has other effects, like making certain weapons less effective?

    At first glance, the defense rating seems mostly to be an abstract measure of the unit's skill and training. This is because units with the same equipment can have very different defense ratings, and defense improves with experience. There also seems to be some attitude involved. For instance, "fierce" units that are heedless of losses mostly have low defense ratings regardless of armor. Meanwhile, armor rating seems to be straightforward: so many points for certain types of equipment. Thus, the defense and armor ratings seem to be totally separate things. For example, some units with little training have good armor but low defense ratings.

    However, then the guide says the following (page 54):
    Quote If the target has a shield, a Shield bonus was included in the target's basic initial Defense factor. But if you strike the defender from the rear, he can't use his shield. So the Shield bonus gets plucked out of the equation.

    If striker hits target from the rear:

    ADD 2 if the target is a footman with a large shield

    OR

    ADD 1 if the target is mounted or has a small shield.
    [/QUOTE]

    On the same page, there's also this:
    Quote The value of the striker's Armor piercing bonus is calculated as follows:

    (Target's Armor value - 2) / 2

    However, the target's Armor value is modified to subtract the contribution of his shield and horse to his Armor rating. NOTE: it fails to mention what these contributions are.[/QUOTE]

    So it's pretty obvious the defense and armor ratings are intertwined in some way. The value of the shield apparently is part of both.

    Beyond that, I'm lost.

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  9. #9
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    Yep, I feel exactly the same, the guide gives you the stats but doesn't explain them properly enough. Shame really.


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  10. #10
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Shields gives the bonus to the front (I guess you know).

    Large shield +2 to def. and +2 to armour.

    Mounted or small (archers) shield +1 to each.

    Pavise +3 to armour, no bonus to def.

    What we were told by LongJohn I think (don't me responsible ) is that the shields are good only to the front, if attacked in the rear they are a liability, giving a penalty equal to their bonusses. Obviously not to Armour though, there they are only negated.
    So shields can be real nasty in some battles, but GREAT in others, like fighting against armour piercing.

    Bullethead, we have to consider all units to be of Valour 0, or else it can become impossible to count.

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  11. #11
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    Kraxis, I don't think the shield is ever a penalty. If units wielding shields are attacked from the back, it just doesn't apply.

    The confusion I think comes from the fact that the unit data files DO NOT contain the shield bonuses and the stats we see when pressing F1 DO. So depending on which stats you consider as 'base', you either have to ADD the bonus when facing the enemy or SUBTRACTING it when you don't. Hope this clears things up.


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    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    It seems you were right in some sense.

    longjohn2 wrote this:
    Quote
    The shield factors are listed as penalties rather than bonuses in the strat guide, because the stats you get when you press F1 (and I think the ones listed in the strat guide) already include the shield effect.
    You lose the shield effect whether meleed or shot from behind.

    The exception is troops with two handed weapons and shields (for instance Varangian Guard). These count their shields to the front normally, but when fighting they have to sling their shields on their backs so as to have two hands for their axes. Therefore, when shot at while fighting, they count shielded if shot from behind, and not form in front.
    [/QUOTE]

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  13. #13

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    Arkatreides,

    Tosa and I tested shields against arrows and they do work as stated. They give added protection to the front, but no protection from the rear or the side.

    The armor and defense parameters are separate. Armor is used in the calculation for chance to be killed by a projectile, and defense for chance to be killed by hth combat. Armor is also used in the fatigue calculation, and doesn't directly affect unit speed which is constant. However, there is an indirect relationship to speed because an exhausted unit cannot run.

    Now the armor piercing weapons are new to the system, and this is brought in by an adjustment to the attack value based on the armor level of the target. In this case, as the target's armor level increases the attacker's attack level increases or you can think of it as the defend level of the target decreasing. I guess it's set up like that because, when a unit is given more armor, the defend value is supposed to be increased as well. However, there may be some inconsistencies in some units as Kraxis points out.

    The algorithm for hth combat as given to us by longjohn is:
    df = attack - defend + bonus
    chance to kill = 1.9% * 1.2 ** df

    Attack is the striker's attack value and defend is the target's defend value. Striking at a target alternates back an forth between the men while the units are fighting in a combat animation cycle.

    The df is capped at -20 and + 20.
    The bonus is a combination of all the factors that can affect combat like charge, height advantage, trees, fatigue, armor, anti-cav bonus, side attack, rear attack, etc. The shield seems to be added directly to the defend and armor values, and would have to be removed if the attack does not come from the front.


    [This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 09-09-2002).]

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    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Ahh... Then this is concluded I guess.

    That statement about the Varangians has actually sparked my mind.
    With the shield on the back and the good armour they have, you can actually fire into their melee and do more good than harm.

    I wonder this though, do Longbowmen negate shields??? That would make shielded units real bad against an army of Longbowmen (they only get the bonus from the front but are easily killed by the Longbowmen anyway).

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    We haven't seen the projectile parameters yet, but there is a parameter called 'power' which is the penetration ability of the projectile. Power and armor must be used in a calculation for chance to kill by a projectile that hits its target. I would expect that longbows (LONG) have a higher power rating than regular bows (SBOW) and possibly longer range, but I haven't checked this out.

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  16. #16
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Yes, I know about power.
    I uased to check the power of the missile units in MI (Skirmishters were really powerful). But have we got a file as back then?
    That would make it very much easier to determine.

    But my question was if the Longbowmens AP properties would ensure that shields are penetrated. I was not really talking about power.

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  17. #17

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    Well the shield adds to the armor rating and that should reduce the chance of penetration even by a longbow. However, if the power is high enough, then armor won't noticably lower the chance of a kill. You could check this by firing longbows under carefully controlled conditions at the front and back of units which have a shield.


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    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    I dont have access to the strate guide, but my feeling and understanding of the pieces I put together is

    1. not all large shield give +2 bonus. The almohad-urban-militia has large shield I believe but they only have +1 bonus from F1 report. I believe when units is attacked from rear or flank, the shield bonus is not effected, and defend bonus go back to norm as per troopstats. e.g. almohad-urban-militia
    M3 D4$ A5$ frontally. On side and rear they become M3 D3 A4 (the base value in stat)

    2. As for armour piercing, IMO a logical way I think it works is that it negate the shield bonus (or maybe reduce by -1)?

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  19. #19
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Tootee, I got the info from longjohn2 himself. While he might have been wrong, I doubt it.
    So I think the AUM has a +2 as all others with large shields.

    Maybe we could hunt him down and get the info we need?

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  20. #20
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Unless F1 is lying, thats what I think I see. Maybe this old man eyes are starting to fail. A check with F1 should suffice I think.

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  21. #21
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    I don't trust F1 all the time. Check out my thread on bonuses: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001417.html

    I found that the attack and defense bonuses can be off by +/- 1 (whithout any good reason)


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  22. #22
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    hehe if i cant trust F1, I dunno who to trust. If it's a bug, then the new patch should address it. But so far the words from the CA peeps is that F1 is cool, no? Other than that, I see no reason why AUM only has a +1$ bonus for large shield.

    What are the other inconsistency you have observed for F1, Arkatreides?

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  23. #23
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    These are the stats how they should be (when you press F1):

    defense = base + valour + armour bonus + shield
    attack = base + valour + weapon bonus

    So, for example a valour 3 Chivalric Knight unit, with level 2 weapon and level 4 armour upgrades should be:

    defense = 5(base)+3(valour)+4(armour)+0(shield) = 12

    attack = 5(base)+3(valour)+2(weapon) = 10

    This is USUALLY correct. However, I found that there somethimes is an EXTRA +1 or -1 modifier to either attack or defense (or both) and I haven't been able to figure out when it applies. If it applies, it applies for all units in the army (in the same way, so for example all have a +1 bonus to attack, or all have a -1 bonus to defense), so that made me think that it had something to do with the general, but it seems to wary from battle to battle.

    Maybe it has something to do with the weather conditions or the terrain. I don't know. I have been trying to get an official answer for a few days now as this really bugs me.


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  24. #24
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Tootee, it does seem that the AUM has a different shield value, maybe their shields were only made out of cowhide.
    I have not played with the AUM but the stats are 4 Armour, so if you say they have 5 in the F1 screen then they are different.

    Not that I mind at all, I think they are a bit overpowered.

    Arkatreides, that is indeed very odd. Why would they change values when all is the same. I mean it can hardly be the general. +1 to command when attacking should show as either nothing or +1 to Valour for all, and the +# to Valour should be easily seen...

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  25. #25

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    The Strategy Guide does list the AUM as having a large shield and also 3/4/5 att/def/armor which includes the shield effect and matches the F1 screen data. The crusaders_unit_prod11.txt stat file used by the game shows 3/3/4 with a large shield. So the F1 screen is correct, but, for some reason, the AUM's large shield is being treated like a small shield and only giving +1 to defense and +1 armor rating.

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  26. #26
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Exactly, I wonder if there are other units like that. It would be strange if longjohn2 was wrong about the stats for shields...
    But I find it ok that the AUM only has a 'small' shield.

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  27. #27
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    Kraxis: yep it is odd, hence it is bugging me so badly!

    Re AUM: I 'think' I read somewhere that the shield bonus depends on the weapon carried as well. For Spear troops it's +2, and for sword it is +1.

    This should be easy to check, all you need to do is give the AUM a spear instead of a sword in the unit file.


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  28. #28
    She pushed me ... Member Arkatreides's Avatar
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    Ack, it's even simpler than that!

    There is an entry called 'Shield modifier' in the units file. For AUM it is 0.5! Hence the large shield only gives +1 bonus.

    *I like it when things add up! *


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  29. #29
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Ahhh... So it was intentional? Nice...

    Where did you find it?

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  30. #30
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Ah, so thats the function of the shield modifier, I has always wonder how it is used. Could you verify with other units of 0.5 rating? that it really reduced the shield bonus by 1/2?

    1. ChivalricManAtArms 0.5 large
    2. GothicSergeants 0.5 large
    3. VarangianGuard 0.5 large
    4. HospitallerFootKnights 0.0 large

    Thanks. I could do it but now i'm in office, and i cant wait till home to find out.

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