Naval operations

[Vildhavre]

rant start:
The AI keeps rotating his ships around the british isle so that I cannot attack it, even if i have a 4+fleet in every seazone.
Fine, I can accept that since they probably have faster ship or bigger binoculars or whatever. BUT what I am pretty annoyed about is that that no-good-chicken-ships are blockading my transportcapabily. I am outnumbering him by 20 to 1 and chasing him around the sea and still im not dominating the seas! ARG!!
rant end.

suggestion 1:
have ships follow targets like assasins do or even an option to follow.

suggestion 2:
somehow remove the blockading capability of ships that are moving/retreating.

that felt good

[Stu35]

bloody hell not another person whinging about this...

its bloody piss easy to defeat enemy fleets - keep this in mind.


-use faster ships
-use small groups of no more than 2 ships
-have 6-7 groups of them
-a fleet travels at the speed of its slowest ship
-plan your sea battles, dont go to war THEN try and beat the enemy fleet - beat the fleet, then you can start your war.


And if all this dont work, THEN you can complain, i, however have never had a naval problem.

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Stu35s MTW Site - Hints,Lists,Facts,And Porn (one of those is a lie)



Alba Gu Bragh

[This message has been edited by Stu35 (edited 09-28-2002).]

[Jaret]

I had that too !

It seems tht the speed is very important for catching them. I had good results with 2 smaller fleets each trying to attack the enemy. Maybe it was that my units aproached from two sides making it hardr to escape. Maybe I just got the same chance to catch the enemy twice and was lucky one time .

J.

[Vildhavre]

My complaint was not of the battles, rather that a single ship can blockade trade/transport even if you have 10 ships in that seazone.

ok, better write that 2 times.

My complaint was not of the battles, rather that a single ship can blockade trade/transport even if you have 10 ships in that seazone.


Nice tips on tactics, dividing and stuff.

[Goodridge]

I agree. This is a real annoyance. I'm not sure exactly how it could be solved. After all, a bigger fleet isn't any sort of guarantee. Just look at the Spanish Armada.



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Kyle Goodridge

[Saki]

quote "And if all this dont work, THEN you can complain, i, however have never had a naval problem"

The only naval problem I have is the accumulation of fluff.

[MajorFreak]

Quote Originally posted by Stu35:
bloody hell not another person whinging about this...

its bloody piss easy to defeat enemy fleets - keep this in mind.


-use faster ships
-use small groups of no more than 2 ships
-have 6-7 groups of them
-a fleet travels at the speed of its slowest ship
-plan your sea battles, dont go to war THEN try and beat the enemy fleet - beat the fleet, then you can start your war.


And if all this dont work, THEN you can complain, i, however have never had a naval problem.

[/QUOTE]

hey stu? ALOT of folk have this problem, so don't get pissy when you realize there's no intuitive reason why a number of enemy fleets, always running from your flotillas, can manage to effectively blockade just by continually moving (the computer has a habit of having a few "flying squads" to cripple your trade/transport logistics)though i do thank you for explaining the guts of "speed"...I went back to an old save game and i tried out the "equal speed or faster" attack plan with an intercept fleet. works like a charm. I even think any slower fleets in same area join in too if you "intercept" the enemy. *g*[/list]But, yeah. get firkin used to seeing this FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTION. (you must realize that your answer did NOT answer our complaint about the silly "flying squad" blockade rule...i heard the patch fixes this silly code. It's intuitive that in order to blockade you gotta stay in the damned sea and rubberneck)

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[This message has been edited by MajorFreak (edited 10-05-2002).]

[turken00]

I'm glad someone brought this issue up again. Right now I'm playing the Turks and I have control over most of the Mediterranean, however im at war with the Italians and one of their ships keeps moving around the Med, blocking my trade routes. This probably costs me around 500-1000 florins in trade income. Its very very annoying, I've been trying for over 50 years, yes 50 whole turns, to destroy this ship but I can't. My fastest ship I can build is speed 2 and the Italian one is speed 4. However I thought of a way this can be fixed.

I think that if there is an enemy ship in a sea and you also have a ship there, it should be recognized as neutral waters, allowing the transportation of men, and trade routes. A sea should only be blockaded when it is under complete control of enemy forces, for example when they sink your fleet on that sea and they take control of it. I think this could be a much more realistic approach to this very annoying problem.

[MajorPain]

Turken the fastest ship the Turks can get have speed 3, its the first ship u can build as the Turks.

Quote Originally posted by Stu 35
bloody hell not another person whinging about this...
its bloody piss easy to defeat enemy fleets - keep this in mind.


-use faster ships
-use small groups of no more than 2 ships
-have 6-7 groups of them
-a fleet travels at the speed of its slowest ship
-plan your sea battles, dont go to war THEN try and beat the enemy fleet - beat the fleet, then you can start your war.


And if all this dont work, THEN you can complain, i, however have never had a naval problem.


[/QUOTE]
I wanna see you catch the Italians speed 4 ships with a speed 3 ship.

I have big problems to take them and I have alot of ships everywhere. I cant all the time catch the speed 3 ships with my speed 3 ships.

Are you playing on easy???

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STW will always be #1

[Kalt]

Quote Originally posted by turken00:
I'm glad someone brought this issue up again. Right now I'm playing the Turks and I have control over most of the Mediterranean, however im at war with the Italians and one of their ships keeps moving around the Med, blocking my trade routes. This probably costs me around 500-1000 florins in trade income. Its very very annoying, I've been trying for over 50 years, yes 50 whole turns, to destroy this ship but I can't. My fastest ship I can build is speed 2 and the Italian one is speed 4. However I thought of a way this can be fixed.

I think that if there is an enemy ship in a sea and you also have a ship there, it should be recognized as neutral waters, allowing the transportation of men, and trade routes. A sea should only be blockaded when it is under complete control of enemy forces, for example when they sink your fleet on that sea and they take control of it. I think this could be a much more realistic approach to this very annoying problem.[/QUOTE]


Hey that is actually a very good idea, instead of 'blockaded' call the area 'contested' and allow both sides to use it (their naval ships guard their convoys) unless one groups gets up the nerve to attack the other group. Once one group wins, their surviving ships will have a monopoly once more and the zone will be blockaded against the loser.

[turken00]

Quote Originally posted by MajorPain:
Turken the fastest ship the Turks can get have speed 3, its the first ship u can build as the Turks.
[/QUOTE]

Yes thx for the correction. The Dhow is the first ship that I built and its speed 3, I can now build Baggalas which are speed 2. Anyways it doesnt matter because I dont have a ship that can sink the damn Italian dromons yet.

[Pachinko]

Make it put his ships in a corner. Surround it. It works for me. Eventually, you will win.

PS Come on guys be nice! Please.

P.

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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.

Dev quote>>Sigh, ye of little faith. Don't assume everything is a bug.

[ToranagaSama]

How to Catch and Sink ships 101:

1) One ship of lesser speed vs a ship of greater speed will not do it.

2) One ship of equal speed may catch and sink; but the its a big sea/ocean. Low chance.

3) Two ships of lesser spead vs. one ship of greater speed; chances are better than one above; but again, its a big sea/ocean.

Stacking the two ships and attack; still a big sea/ocean and the opponents ship is faster. low chance.

Sepearate the two ships and attack separately, but simultaneously; don't know for sure, but this seems to work better than stacking them. Hopefully, because the the two ships are attacking from two different directions; allowing the enemy ship fewer options for escape despite its speed advantage. Obviously, the key to catching and sinking is boxing the enemy in; in other words "removing" avenues of escape.

4) Attempt to anticipate (or manipulate) which sea zone(s) the enemy ship may escape to; have a ship already placed in that zone(s). This is why you should PLAN your attack. A ship equal to the enemy's ship will have the best odds of any of the above to catch and sink in this situation. A slower ship will have less of a chance.

Two or more ships, of slower speed, in the anticipated sea zone will a very good chance. One of greater and one of slower speed will have an ever better chance. Two of greater speed will have an excellent change.

5) Anticipate the second attack above BEFORE your initial attack; be ready to move ships to again box in the enemy.

The above tactics should allow you to sink an enemy ship in 3 turns or less. Of course, that's if your "perfect"!!

[LittleRaven]

These are all good tips, but there does appear to be an actual bug when it comes to enemy ships. Using the tactics above, I can sink every AI ship easily.....except their last one. You won't catch that last one, no matter what you do. I've tried everything. Fast ships, multiple fleets...everything. If it's a Dhow or whatever that small galley is...you won't catch it, period. The only way I've found to get rid of the last ship is to wipe out the faction.

I think this is a real bug, since the patch readme that's been released mentions something about ships using their real speed when fleeing.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by LittleRaven:
.....except their last one. [/QUOTE]

Agree with you completely about that LAST one. Trying to get that Last French ship is what helped me to develop the "box-in" technique above.

Another thing to keep very much in mind is the experience (or star level) of your ship(s). A star, or two, or three, makes things goes MUCH easier. For instance, if you have in the sea zone that the enemy "escapes" to, a higher Starred ship(s). Preferrably 2 ships, sinking is virtually a done deal!

Equal speed:
0 star ship vs 0 star ship = Low chance
1 star ship vs 0 star ship = very "fair:
chance
2 star ship vs 0 star ship = excellent chance

Slower speed:
Double the number of ships above and with a 2 star they have a good chance.

1 equal 1 slower add 1 star = good
add 2 star = VERY good.

I think few of us, myself included, previously focused much attetion on the star level of ships.

[ToranagaSama]

Yes, there's some sort of but, which is being addressed in the patch. Though, I don't believe it will be the "dramatic" effect some may be hoping for.

The "reality" is that, ship to ship engagement in the medieval era (and thru WWII) was a "deliberate" affair. A battle had to be desired by both warring parties; or the battle needed to be "forced" upon one party.

Forcing the battle, apparently, is the way the game is designed; and rightfully so. The Devs, apparently, heavily factored in Speed and the fact that the sea/ocean is VERY big. (How do you corner someone in a room with no walls??)

If there's an actual bug, then its probably been corrected, but the basic design factors, probably, remain the same.

Anyone know what actually is the bug? I presume its that the AI is quite unwilling to fight under any circumstance.

[hrvojej]

I'd like to confirm on the splitting fleet tactics to get enemy ships. I have several "squads" of fast ships lead by captains with stars that I use to put in all the neighbouring regions, split them, and attack regardless of where that dromon will move next.

However, I'd like to disagree with the suggested idea about sea zones being usable by both factions if they both have fleets in a sea region. This would make sea invasions nearly impossible to contain, and force you to garisson ALL the coastal provinces with first class armies, or in other words, ruin the game. Not to mention what you can do to the ai with your sea invasions if that's how things work.

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-05-2002).]

[shokaku76]

Hmmm... I was able to easily catch and destroy 4 speed ships with slow as turtle ships mine... 1 speed. How? I attacked one with 4-5 of mine, all split off. Never, ever attack with a single stack of ships. I find that it almost always works.

[LittleRaven]

Quote Originally posted by ToranagaSama:
Yes, there's some sort of but, which is being addressed in the patch. Though, I don't believe it will be the "dramatic" effect some may be hoping for.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can't speak for others, but I'm certainly not looking for a "dramatic" effect. I think ships work almost as they should. The only that needs to be fixed is the way that the VERY LAST SHIP of a faction often seems to be invulnerable. Other than that, ships seem to work pretty well for me. I definately think that even a single ships should be able to form a blockade, otherwise (as has already been noted) there would be no way to guard against a naval invasion...

[Cheetah]

Listed in the TC

[Vildhavre]

I agree with LittleRaven, its only the very last ship of a faction that is a problem.
One tiny change could be to only let fleets blockade trade/troops if they have stayed in the same seazone for one whole turn. In that way you could ignore that last constantly moving ship.