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Thread: Swords,swords,swords....and,you guessed it! more swords!!

  1. #1
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    Why are sword units so week against pikemen? i mean this game definetly isn't based on a simple rock/paper/scissors element,coz here you have it-spearmen beat cav head-on,cav(medium and mostly heavy) beat spearmen from the flanks and rear,and also,spearmen/pikemen are beaten by arrow fire-and there it is for u,quite more complex than that!
    Hevay armoured infantry with swords should beat spearmen/pikemen,tough i'm not sure if they really do...
    What are really the best sword units in the game?(HEY I CAN'T SEE ANY SWORD IN THE FEUDAL FOOT KNIGHT'S HAND!just pause and take a look-it's just like they're fighting with their fists!!)

    Cheers(hmmm..first post from me..)

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    Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

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    Member Member NARF's Avatar
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    well, I know this should be true. but if i had a 7 foot staff with a big nasty ass sharp spade on the end of it, and you had a measly sword, who would win?

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    GAH!

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    Really though, you see a pike, take a gun. A bullet cares not what weapon you wield.

    GAH!


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  4. #4
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    Nice....
    Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

  5. #5

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    Narf : if you fail to stab him as he charges you, and he gets beyond the point of the spear (by deflecting it with shield/sword), you're dead meat

    That's why I think sword units should butcher spears...well, they should take heavy losses during the initial impact, but when they're looking at pikemen in the white of their eyes, they should totally wipe them out...

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  6. #6

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    kobal 2, its the first 5 rows (i think) in a pike unit that fights so when they get past the first row of pikes they have a next row to get by and a next and a next...

    cant be many swords fighter left after the impact and then when they fight only the first row of the swordsmen that can fight cause they dont have so long swords but still the first 5 rows of the pikemen.
    STW will always be #1

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    Member Member Jubala's Avatar
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    Yes, there are several rows of pikemen/spearmen who can point their pikes/spears at any swordsmen trying to get to the guys in the first line. But I can't help to think that the farther back you stand the harder it will be for you to actually aim and use that long stick of yours with any accuracy because of all the guys standing in line in front of you. The area where you can effectively use your pike/spear without fear of hitting or tripping up your buddies can't be very big and a welltrained swordsman probably knows this and how to avoid getting spitted. Besides, why do you think many pike and spearmen also carried a shortsword or their pike/spear had a sharp end in the back too? To fight enemies who got past the pointy end of their sticks and to use the other end of what was left of that pointy stick as a last ditch weapon when it was broken, be it by sword, axe or dead horse.

    It should be hard to get past a wall of pikes/spears but once you're up close and personal with a guy holding a pike/spear the business end of his weapon is somewhere behind you while the business end of yours is way to close to him for comfort.

  8. #8

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    I think in reality swords are far superrior to spears. The reason for ussing spears so much was because they were so cheap and easy to make. think about a spear can be made whithout iron, just plain wood. Clubs and spears were (except when used in special units like swiss pikemen against cavalry) weapons of the poor people.
    Only the rich can afford a sword in the medieval time. Also i think that while spears are good for defence, in attack were week. i think it was realy hard to run whith a huge stick in hand.

  9. #9
    Bored Avid Gamer Member Alrowan's Avatar
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    well... perhaps pikemen should get a -ve for melee
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    Member Member s&d&r&r's Avatar
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    The way I see it is that the makers of MTW simply take their stats from history. If you read up on the battles of the period pikes were supposedly a great weapon of that era.

  11. #11
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    The soldiers with spears AND shields are not using two handed pikes. A rather short one handed spear isn't nearly as effective as a long pike. In fact it is rather clumsy because it must be held near it's center to be used thus wasting half of its' length for balance. MAA should do well against these guys and cavalry should have an easier time with them than they do.

    The genuine pikemen were tough cookies.

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  12. #12

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    Don't forget that pike units first two or three ranks can get into the fray and stick you with a variety of pointy bits... even if you get past the first rank, the guy in the second and third ranks are going to be looking to take you out or even pull you to the ground.

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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member +DOC+'s Avatar
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    I simply modded it myself.

    The number of ranks that can effect the spearman's or pikeman's attack and defence are currently 2 and 4 respectively.

    This imho is too many. Spearmen with one-handed spears should only really be able to get help from the immediate rank behind and 2-handed pikeman maybe 3 ranks.

    So that's what i did. Spearman now only have 1 effective rank behind the first and pikemen 3!

    It works a treat.

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  14. #14

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    Hang on guys, let's get one thing straight here. People seem to be talking about Pikemen and Spearmen here as if their effect in battle is one and the same or almost identical.

    I for one can accept Pikemen being lethal to Swordsman, but Spearmen? That's a whole different issue. From both a gameplay (ie. rock, paper, scissors) and historical perspective this is wrong.

    Head to head Spearmen shouldn't be beating Swordsmen, and Swordsmen shouldn't have to overlap Spearmen to be competitive.

    Austaro

  15. #15

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    Doc,

    According to the Strategy Guide, spearmen only get bonuses for 2 supporting ranks and pikemen get bonuses for 4 supporting ranks because their weapon is longer. Is this not the case in the stat file?

    Oh! I see, it is the case and you reduced them both by one rank.

    [This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 09-22-2002).]

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  16. #16
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    aaaaa....maan there you go with that rock/paper/scissors thing! forget it! it's not the case in this game!
    Now,i tought at it and finally got the answer...speramen,if attacked frontally,they would use their shields at first and then stab the attacker with thy spear(this is because their spears are too short and they really need their shields to defend themselves before they can stab the enemy-remember than peasants too have spears but get NO BONUS vs cav),and the second rank would get their spears between those of the first rank,thus creating a wall of spears,very hard to get through( pikes get 4 ranks fighting,and the secret lies in that wall of spears/pikes i was saying about).
    So,after the fron rank of spearmen is engaged the second will support it,but the problem is this-after the first ranks are dead,could the remaining ranks point their spears\pikes at the enemy and start again to support eachother?
    When the swordsmen engage,it's a matter of time,if the swordsmen have good armor,shields,discipline-altough takeing casualties-their protective armor/shields will give them the time needed to get close enough.
    As you see,there are many variables,one of them is the number of spearmen/pikemen and the number of swordsmen.
    If equal numbers,and the swordsmen are heavy armoured,they get enough time to close up to spearmen and cut the apart.
    Spearmen DO get beaten by byzaantine infantry ,i had about 120 spearmen vs about 60 byz infantry-the result-19 byz inf and about 30 spearmen routing,yeah but we all know that byz inf. are one of the best early infantry in the game...
    So,this is the way it SHOULD go-if spearmen,in the back ranks ,after the first two ranks are dead ,DO manage to point their spears at the enemy than they can hold the back again and provoke heavy casualties(that is if their fighting against not to heavily armoured swordsmen)-BUT,if,for example,Heavy infantry meets pikemen,they come up close to them and charge in to that wall/barage of pikes in front of them,that barage is made from the spears from 4 ranks,so if the heavy infantry GET PAST THAT BARAGE,they can easily chop down the pikemen who's pikes are ussles after that.
    Generally,Swordsmen(light) should have lower charges,but higher melee,while spearmen/pikemen,should have better charge,but a poorer melee.
    Shouldn't be this way?
    Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

  17. #17
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    Hope I haven't over-done it...
    Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

  18. #18

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    Michael you sound like a real newbie at first impression. 120 spearmen vs 60 byz inf?

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    Member Member Stu35's Avatar
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    Quote while spearmen/pikemen,should have better charge,but a poorer melee.
    Shouldn't be this way? [/QUOTE]


    no... the swordsman is the man who charges, the blokes forming the Highland Charge would have small shields and whatever light-yet-very-pointy-object they had, while the men forming the tight shiltrons (and the infinetly more successful in a melle) were armed with 7-8 metre pieces of wood with very sharp points.


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  20. #20

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    I played at a lot of Live Action RolePlaying Conventions. I actualy have fought with a Sword and a Spear. They almost have the same efficiency. Pikes would do very well while the enemy is kept at range, but when the swordsman get into close quaters with them, the pikeman go down.

    The Weapon to defeat Spears/Pikes is the two handed sword which was originaly designed to cut their heads off, rendering the weapon useless. Gallowglass-Warriors should preform quite well vs. Spears/Pikes. (haven´t tested it tho)

    But the main weapon vs. Spear-/Pike-man stays the Bow. The lenght of the weapon usualy slows them down so they should be an easy target for bowmen or even better mounted bowmen. For armoured spear-/pike-man use arbalests.

    [This message has been edited by Jaret (edited 09-22-2002).]
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  21. #21
    Member Member todorp's Avatar
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    I had played some Iai do, the real Japanese sword art, not Kendo, which is with a bamboo sword. I have seen masters of both sword and spear. Master swordsman against master spearman is damn difficult. The swordsman is more on the defense. In formation the spears clearly have the upper hand. I tend to agree with the power of the spears in MTW.

  22. #22

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    Jaret wins the stupid award for this thread, live action roleplaying convention? Atleast you're anonymous on the internet. This isn't OgreTactics, just because you've used a double edged 2 handed sword of +4 lightning at your little convention there, doesn't mean you know anything about swords vs spears.
    And Todorp, this isn't japan, these aren't master swordsmen. And in fact, have you ever really even seen any master swordsmen? I mean, an army in the mtw period probably saw a lot more action than any swordsmen you've watched has.
    Newbies think MTW should be this way or that way just because in some movie they saw this ninja beat that samurai with this weapon and that somehow makes them an expert on how a video game should be balanced?
    --reaverlisk

  23. #23

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    Spearmen and pikemen changed to walk slower than swordsmen and missile units made more powerful might work.

  24. #24
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
    Jaret wins the stupid award for this thread, live action roleplaying convention? Atleast you're anonymous on the internet. This isn't OgreTactics, just because you've used a double edged 2 handed sword of +4 lightning at your little convention there, doesn't mean you know anything about swords vs spears.
    And Todorp, this isn't japan, these aren't master swordsmen. And in fact, have you ever really even seen any master swordsmen? I mean, an army in the mtw period probably saw a lot more action than any swordsmen you've watched has.
    Newbies think MTW should be this way or that way just because in some movie they saw this ninja beat that samurai with this weapon and that somehow makes them an expert on how a video game should be balanced?
    --reaverlisk
    [/QUOTE]

    1) Cut the attitude and don't go name calling.

    2) If you don't wish to believe other patrons use facts to make your point not belligerence.

    3) Romans used spears. Get in close they switched to thrusting swords. As did the samurai often. Historically naginata often out did katana in one on one fights... once you get past the blade you still have to cope with the shaft and that can be formidable... likewise billmen. You can compare samurai and romans with medieval infantry, although it does help to consider armour as well when doing so.

    4) If you don't believe me, take a look at the many prints of the Samurai and you will see spear/naginata armed warriors fending off others... naturally in warfare one uses the best weapon for the situation at hand. Likewise check out the art work of various periods and the literature and you find it wasn't just sword sword sword that ruled any encounter.

    5) Swords were a weapon in the arsenal of a medieval warrior not the only one. Knights used lances (spears) as did many sword equipped foot soldiers. The main claim to fame swords had was as a mark of station due to expense, duels and as an effective weapon against lightly armoured opponents (I'm a rich noble and you are a peasant with a turnip en garde). So in short even if you had a sword when you turned up for a battle you normally where smart enough to bring a long pointy stick.
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  25. #25
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    This is geting very interesting,and we could give countless historical examples based on this,but it only works how i told you before:
    Remember this isn't cav vs spearmen! and there are a few more variables that can affect the final outcome in swords vs spears/pikes.
    Now,spearmen/pikemen are supposed to do well against enemyes attacking frontally(multiple rank bonus),so-light swordsmen attacking a spearmen/pikemen formation should lose,but they are lighter so should be able to flank them more easily.
    -Heavy swordsmen(with shields,and heavy armor,and also good close range fighting),would trash the spearmen,but when it comes to the pikemen(ESPECIALLY Swiss Armoured Pikemen),it takes the most heavily armoured sword infantry to break in to their formation(Also consider that these relationships appear when the spearmen/pikemen and swordsmen are in equal numbers);a good thing the devs should take note is that,when in equal numbers,heavily armoured swordsmen should really break IN TO THE pike formation(like cav breaks archers).Yes,indeed,pike formations are not breakable by cav,BUT THEY SHOULD BE BY HEAVY SWORDSMEN,I hope the creators take note for the expansion.
    So, this is the way it really works(swords vs spears),and just think of it this way,and not about some silly rock/paper/scissors game.
    Hope i've cleared it up for those who wanted to know.

    (Oh,and btw,I forgot that byz infantry come in groups of 100...sorry,but really 60 byz infantry will eat 120 spearmen ALIVE!).

    "I Michael-voyvod,from the mercy of God,ruler of Walachia,Carpathia and all of Moldavia!!"

    [This message has been edited by Michael the Great (edited 09-22-2002).]
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  26. #26

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    Michael the Great,

    I have a flat map. I tested Feudal MAA vs spearmen and pikemen in custom game on normal difficulty which should be balanced. The Feudal MAA are 15 wide by 4 deep engage at will. The spearmen and pikemen are 20 wide by 5 deep hold formantion. I think Feudal MAA are the weakest swordsman unit in the French and English armies which are the factions I used. The Feudal MAA were French in each test. The Feudal MAA won each time.

    Human vs AI losses:

    Feudal MAA vs Spearmen: 13 vs 38
    Spearmen vs Feudal MAA: 81 vs 25
    Feudal MAA vs Pikemen: 20 vs 44
    Pikemen vs Feudal MAA: 78 vs 35

    The Feudal MAA kill spearmen at a rate of about 3 to 1, and they kill pikemen at a rate of about 2 to 1. I don't see any problem here. The 60 swords beat the 100 spears and pikes in frontal assault without wrapping around. This is the most favorable situation for the spears and pikes. A clue that the spears and pikes are inferior to the Feudal MAA is that the AI hesitates to frontally assault the Feudal MAA. The AI does not hesitate to frontally assault the spear or pike with the Feudal MAA.

    Incidentally, the replays show full details of each unit on both sides. So, you can see the morale, fatigue and if the units are winning or not. That's a great addition to the replay feature, and I thank LongJohn or is it Target for including it.

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  27. #27

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    Puzz3D, they will however generally lose against equal florin chivalric sergeants or order foot, which is what they are likely to face online.

  28. #28
    Member Member Emp. Conralius's Avatar
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    I think it goes like this. If you were a swordwmen and you fought 1-on-1 with a man armed with a pike, you would probably win. But if a unit of swordsmen charge into a wall of gleaming pikes, well that's a different story...
    WORMS

  29. #29
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    Interesting tests there Puzz3D!
    I've done quite a few of my own.Hey,also remember that spearmen/pikemen DO get the rank bonus,regardless of hold formation(but this works better on hold formation).
    But remember that if spearmen/pikemen will ENGAGE the swordsmen or both units(let's say of equal number of men each) engage each other,the chances that spearmen/pikmen will lose raise(coz their formation gets broken up when they engage,also lose their extra rank bonus,so they'll get butchered by the superior melee fighting swordsmen-in most cases i believe).
    One of the most interesting tests i,ve fone was Janissary Heavy Infantry vs Swiss Armoured Pikemen,in wich,after heavy fighting,the JHI managed to rout the pikemen; the problem is that one time,it happened that the SAP managed to rout the Janissaryes.
    Hmmmmm....I wonder if anybody has tried this test,so he could give me his results....

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  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jaret:
    The Weapon to defeat Spears/Pikes is the two handed sword which was originaly designed to cut their heads off, rendering the weapon useless.[/QUOTE]

    Gah! Cut heads off! Gah!


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