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Thread: Issues with Stakes and Wagons

  1. #1
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    I'm trying to make an historical battle of 1st St. Albans. As you probably know, the Lancastrians erected field expedient barricades across some of the streets in town, from which they were able to repulse some Yorkist attacks. But the key thing to me is that these barricades, while impeding the assault, weren't totally unassailable walls. Had not the defenders been there, the attackers could have climbed over or dismantled the barricades and thus gotten in. I mean, they wouldn't have attacked there if the barricades were as impassable as castle walls.

    The only models in the editor that will work for barricade material are stakes and wagons. Hedges, I recall reading, offer no impediment to movement and besides look out of place for this purpose. But you can make very realistic-looking barricades with stakes and wagons.

    Unfortunately, I can't get such barricades to work well in MTW. I either get a solid, impassable "wall" or must leave a gap so wide that there might as well be nothing there, and this looks bad. Thus, I request some changes to how the game handles wagons and stakes.

    First off, both wagons and stakes should be destructable by melee troops in the same way that artillery pieces are. I mean, you're talking wood vs. scores of guys armed with axes, bills, swords, whatever. The troops should be able to either physically shove the wagon out of the way, uproot the stake, or hack either to pieces.

    Stakes have another problem as well. Each stake model is surrounded by an impassable area that's just WAY too big. The result is that you can space the stake models out with gaps that look wide enough for 3-4 guys to walk abreast between them, but they still form an impassable wall. It's like they've got barbed wire strung between them.

    What I want to do with stakes is make fairly dense rows of them, with here and there a gap wide enough for guys to get through in single file. The idea is that several defenders behind such gaps can beat up on each attacker as he comes through, thus giving a great advantage to the defender. At least until the attackers chop down the stakes. Which means defenders with long weapons should be able to walk up on the other side and whack on the stake-chopping attackers, and vice versa. This is how I understand stakes worked in real life.

    But none of this is possible. You can't destroy the stakes and the wide impassable area keeps opposing troops from reaching each other across them. They might as well be on opposite sides of a castle wall.

    So to recap, what I'd like to see in the future is stakes and wagons that can be destroyed with a little chopping. I'd also like to see the impassable area for stakes equal the size of the stake model itself. That way, if you left a gap wide enough for 1 guy to get through, he could.

    NOTE: I've framed this post as a request to CA under the assumption that only they can make these changes. But if anybody knows how a user could mod these changes, PLEASE let me know

    Thanks.

    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  2. #2
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    Well, I've done some poking around and have discovered the following things:

    \MTW\Models\ModelDamage.txt
    This file seems to control which items are destructable, what can damage them, and how much damage it takes to destroy them. All full of helpful comments on how to make changes. So in theory, there should be no problem making wagons and stakes destructable as I want them in my last post.

    But it doesn't seem to work as advertised . In this file, wagons are already shown as having the characteristic I want: the same vulnerability as artillery pieces. The file even says wagons can be hacked to pieces with hand weapons. But this is impossible to do in the game.

    There are 2 possible reasons for this that I can think of at this point. The 1st reason is found in the comments in ModelDamage.txt. This says that models will only be vulnerable to hand weapons if their associated impassable area is the same size as the model. Otherwise troops can't reach the model to do damage to it. This is definitely a problem with stakes, due to their huge impassable area. However, I'm not sure if this is the problem with wagons.

    The other possible reason for the inability to destroy theoretically destructable wagons is that you can't select them as a target for a unit. Other objects that troops can destroy, such as gates, pallisades, and artillery pieces, show up with red labels when you pass the mouse over them, so you can target them specifically. But not wagons--they always show up with white labels just like houses and trees.

    There is a definite difference between wagons and the other troop-destructable items. All the others actually belong to the enemy, while wagons are neutral. So now I'm going to try to find out how models get assigned to a side in a battle and see if there's a way to do that with wagons. Of course, if somebody already has this figured out, please speak up

    Other Files in \MTW\Models
    Under \Models are folders for the different architecture styles, in which are subfolders for most of the various models. Some models, but not all, have text files associated with them that define some of their behavior. Some, but not all, of these files contain a line OBSTACLETYPE, which so far I've seen given as NONE or CYLINDER. So you'd think that by playing with this, you could change the amount of impassable ground around a model.

    Unfortunately, the stake is one of the models that doesn't have a text file at all, so I can't tell what's up with it. And while the wagon has a text file, it doesn't have the OBSTACLETYPE line in it. Furthermore, in the files that have this line, I can't tell how the size of the impassable area is defined, just its shape. Assuming this value's in the file at all.

    So I'm still stumped. Wagons are supposedly destructable but I can't get that to happen. I think I know how to make stakes vulnerable to hand weapons, but that will require shrinking the impassable area around them and I have no idea how to do that. And assuming I figure that out, I'll probably be in the same boat I am with the wagon--can't make it work anyway.

    Anybody got advice on this?



    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    boy ,do you ever stick to one thing at
    a time ,I'v seen some post about this sort
    of stuff ,as usual u seem to understand
    alot.Now I only tinkered with some of this
    stuff in the demo but I did get some things
    done by adding and removing lines in
    the various files but it was hit and miss.
    If you sort out the stakes let me know.
    Check all the fils relating to the given
    object and the funny extentions can open
    in .txt sometimes.Good luck

    LK

  4. #4
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    Lord Krazy said:
    Quote boy ,do you ever stick to one thing at a time[/QUOTE]

    Well, I don't know how to get started on the new units and you've got the same units on your list, so I've gone on to other things

    Quote I'v seen some post about this sort
    of stuff ,as usual u seem to understand
    alot.Now I only tinkered with some of this
    stuff in the demo but I did get some things
    done by adding and removing lines in
    the various files but it was hit and miss.
    If you sort out the stakes let me know.
    Check all the fils relating to the given
    object and the funny extentions can open
    in .txt sometimes.[/QUOTE]

    Well, I've done some more tinkering and have now gotten troops to destroy a wagon with their hand weapons. I did ZERO modding and hacking for this. All I did was add an artillery piece to the OOB in my test battle's .adf file. The artillery piece naturally can destroy all buildings and such so when it was selected, the cursor was red when passed over the wagon. Then I selected the troops and damn if the wagon wasn't red for them now, too. And in fact the troops destroyed it.

    But in addition, now the buildings and stakes were also red for the troops. Neither of these is shown as killable by hand weapons. However, ModelDamage.txt says both houses and stakes are vulnerable to fire and when I ordered troops to attack these things, they threw torches. So I guess it's supposed to be that way.

    NOTE: for people interested in making troop-destructable model mods, each torch seems to do 1 hit of fire damage.

    Still, there seems to be a bug here. Without artillery pieces in a game, troops can attack and destroy gates and pallisade walls, but not houses, stakes, or wagons. But put an artillery piece in the game and suddenly the troops can attack and destroy anything.

    Anyway, so the troops destroyed the wagons with their poleaxes. Problem is, dead wagons burst into flames and remain just as impassable as they were before . I don't as yet know if there's a way around this. Certainly, some models become passable when destroyed, so if I can figure out how that's done, maybe I can apply that to wagons.

    As for killing stakes, as noted above, having an artillery piece around suddenly made the stakes valid targets for troops. But all they could do was throw torches at them because they couldn't come within poleaxe reach. And I never succeeded in hitting a stake with a torch, so basically stakes are invulnerable to troops at present. And nearly so to artillery--I shot several complete loads of ammo at a stake before I managed to knock one down with a siege cannon. And guess what? It burst into flames and retained the same wide impassable area as before. So I guess if I can figure out how to make dead wagons passable, I need to do the same for dead stakes.

    As far as model files with funky extensions go, I've developed the following theories:

    1. All models have at least 1 file with .3XX extension. Each such file seems to be the 3D model code for all or part of the model.

    2. All models have at least 1 file with a .TXX extension. This is really a text file and appears to specify which texture(s) go on which part(s) of a model.

    3. Some models have a .txt file. The file appears to set certain properties of the model. Because not all models have .txt files, logically all models have default properties and the .txt file is only needed when the model needs different properties. However, I can't find the default properties so I figure they're hardcoded. Examples of properties set in the .txt file:

    How the model sits on the contours of the ground.
    What scale to draw the object and its animations.
    Whether the model has built-in weapons, what type of weapon, how many weapons, where the projectiles appear on the model, and the arc(s) of fire of the weapon(s).
    Whether the model is a wall. As all objects default to impassable (apparently), this must have some other meaning, such as the ability to snap together?
    Whether the model has a gate.
    Whether the model is breachable(?).
    Shape of object's bounding box (impassable area). Values seen are cylindrical and none, so apparently the default is rectangular and impassable.[/list]

    If I could find a way to write .txt files for dead wagons and stakes, then you'd think it would be easy to make these things passable.

    Also note that it appears possible to add weapons to ANY model in the game. Or maybe make new models that are copies existing ones except for added weapons. Now wouldn't that be fun? Not only could you do things like have archers in houses, but you could make Evil Forests by giving each tree a bow with a 360^ arc .

    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  5. #5
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, some models have .ATX and .A3X files. These seem completely analogous to the .TXX and .3XX files, respectively.


    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  6. #6
    CA CA GilJaysmith's Avatar
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    Your description of the .txt files is essentially correct...

    Here's an email I sent to Barocca last week with my version of it, so you can mark yourself :)

    ----
    Each model used on a map is named in the .jjm file and the appropriate version is loaded from the models directory, depending on the architecture in effect when the map's loaded.

    Static (unanimated) models have a .3xx file which is the 3D model, a .txx file which is the list of textures they use, and one or more .lbm files which are the textures in question. On winter maps the textures from the winter directory are used if there are any.

    Animated models have a directory rather than a .3xx file; in the directory there is a .3xx for each resting stage and a .a3x file for each animation (with a .atx file for the animation textures). Each model should have one more .3xx file than .atx file.

    Each model may also have a .txt file which defines some of its properties. (If there's no .txt file it gets default properties.) The properties may vary per architecture.

    The properties include:

    Name - this is the text label for the model's name; if there isn't one then we just use the model's filename as the label

    HeightType - this determines how the model is drawn relative to the ground

    ObstacleType - this is whether the model counts as a physical obstacle - some (like shrubs) don't, some are circles, some are rectangles (the default)

    IsWall - if present then the model is a wall and counts for building castles

    Gate - position of a gate in the model - is yes or no depending on whether it starts open or closed, is yes or no depending on whether it'll close when no-one is using it

    ConstrainRotation - determines how you can rotate the model - a full circle is 16384 and the number is some divisor of this, e.g. 2048 means you can rotate it to eight positions

    Weapons - how many weapons the model can fire, and of what type

    WeaponOrigin - each such entry defines the position of a weapon relative to the model's origin, and its angle

    staticscale
    animscale - these scale the model on the map

    sfx - these entries trigger sounds for various events

    breach - this is how big a breach you'll get, and where, if a wall is destroyed

    noshade - indicates the model isn't shadowed

    noshadow - indicates the model casts no shadow

    nodesert - indicates the model will vanish if used on a desert map

    There may be some others which I forget, but those are the most important ones.

    The different-properties-per-architecture didn't really work as intended; in fact the whole terrain / architecture thing was less successful than we'd hoped. The idea, as you can imagine, was to design a map once, with models, and then to be able to give it a variety of appearances by switching terrain tilesets and changing models such as 'tree' so that an ornate Western-style tree would look like a palm tree if used in an Islamic setting.

    The only other thing about models is the modeldamage.txt file. This determines how many hit points each model has and how easy it is to inflict damage. The file is mostly self-explanatory thanks to heavy commenting.

    Although they aren't included in the checksum which permits or forbids joining a network game, the various model .txt files and modeldamage.txt *must* be the same on everyone's machines, and if a model is used on a map then it should be the same on everyone's machine. Not long before release, I wasted a day on an out-of-sync bug which turned out to be caused by an arrow tower which, because of different file versions, was firing more arrows on one machine and killing more men on one of the machines. Grrrr...
    ----


    We accidentally had an arrow-firing forest during testing because someone had copied the arrow tower's text file for the tree model. Watch out for those Ents...

    Gil ~ CA
    Gil ~ CA

    This Panda

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Kraellin's Avatar
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    fascinating. nice job, bullet, and thanks, gil. youo guys really did open this stuff up for modding. it is appreciated. thanks longjohn, et al.

    K.


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  8. #8

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    Can't wait to see it Bullethead!! Will you be doing all the War of the Roses battles? You could then put them into a campaign - hope to see all historical characters there and perhaps one set from the Lancastrian side and the other from the Yorkist side.

    best of luck!!!
    Gilbert de Clare

    P.S.
    Perhaps you could make it like WW1 barbed wire - lines with gaps irregularly placed that force troops to move laterally to get from one gap to the next.
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  9. #9
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    Gil-

    Thanks muchos for the info. Naturally, I still want more

    GilJaysmith said:
    Quote HeightType - this determines how the model is drawn relative to the ground[/QUOTE]

    Would you please list and explain all the valid values for this line? I think I've got HIGHEST and LOWEST figured, but don't know what ORIGIN means, nor if that's all of them.

    Quote ObstacleType - this is whether the model counts as a physical obstacle - some (like shrubs) don't, some are circles, some are rectangles (the default)[/QUOTE]

    Is there a way to adjust the obstacle size of a model? For instance, making that of stakes smaller, or making that for dead stakes and wagons go away?

    Quote Weapons - how many weapons the model can fire, and of what type[/QUOTE]

    Just from looking at all the files, I THINK the 1st number is the type of weapon and the 2nd is the quantity of them. Am I correct? Also, what are the number codes for the various weapons. If I'm right about which number is which, then I can get some of the codes from the name of the file. But I'm mostly wondering if there some other possible missiles that aren't used in existing models but could be modded.

    Quote WeaponOrigin - each such entry defines the position of a weapon relative to the model's origin, and its angle[/QUOTE]

    I've seen some model text files where this line has 5 parameters instead of 4, and the ArtilleryTower.txt file has a comment saying the 5 are: x y z angle arc. So what's the difference between angle and arc, and which one is optional?

    Quote breach - this is how big a breach you'll get, and where, if a wall is destroyed[/QUOTE]

    Does this function work with all models or just castle walls? I'm wondering if I can use this to make it possible for troops to walk over dead wagons and stakes. Or maybe put "gates" in wagons that troops could "force open".

    Thanks for all the help.

    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  10. #10
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    dclare4 said:
    Quote Can't wait to see it Bullethead!! Will you be doing all the War of the Roses battles? You could then put them into a campaign [/QUOTE]

    I plan on doing a lot of Wars of the Roses battles, seeing as none exist at present . However, I've put 1st St. Albans aside for the moment pending resolution of issues with stakes and wagons.

    So I've spent all day working on Blore Heath instead. This one also has stakes and wagons, but the circumstances of the battle mean I can work around these problems. I've got the map all done, the text and victory conditions are all in place and work, I've
    figured out what units each side will have, and have started placing units on the map. This will be a long, tedious process but I hope to have it done in a few days. I'll post up when I do and will mail it to any who want to test it .

    I haven't considered making a campaign. First, let me build a few battles . But even if I get a good number of WotR battles done, I don't think they'd ALL be campaign material. Too many changes in personnel over too long a period of time . But maybe 2 or 3 revolving around 1 main guy like Warwick would work. We'll see how things go.

    BTW, I'm using the Polish shield (white eagle on red field) for the Lancastrians and the Danish shield (red lion rampant on white field) for the Yorkists. I chose these because even though the whole red/white rose thing is kinda bogus, people are familiar with it. Only I'm going with the background colors instead of the device colors . I chose Danish for the Yorkists because that shield looks very much like Warwick's boar standard.

    So both sides are decked out in red and white, which makes things a bit confusing. Which IMHO adds to the realism because there were numerous "friendly fire" incidents in the WotR due to confusing colors and standards.

    Quote hope to see all historical characters there and perhaps one set from the Lancastrian side and the other from the Yorkist side.[/QUOTE]

    You will. I found a site dedicated to Richard III that has lists of all the nobles on both sides in all the battles. So besides the main commanders, all the line units will be commanded by historical figures (although probably not the correct ones).

    Quote Perhaps you could make it like WW1 barbed wire - lines with gaps irregularly placed that force troops to move laterally to get from one gap to the next.[/QUOTE]

    This is kinda what I'm doing for Blore Heath. Salisbury had a bunch of stakes in front of his position so I've made a line of them spaced far enough apart to leave traversable gaps. For THIS battle, having a large impassable area around each stake is a GOOD thing because there are litterally hundreds of them. Combined with a couple dozen wagons forming the laager and there's a LOT of polygons out there.



    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  11. #11
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    Deleted double post

    [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 09-30-2002).]
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  12. #12

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    Hi Bullethead,

    Wow cool! I've been a war of the Roses fan for a long time and an ardent Rickardian ever since reading Thomas Costain's History of the Plantagenets. If ever you need a playtester or whatever or research material just drop me a line! I got quite a few resources on the War of the Roses and ECW from various places online and off here. For certes I have what seems to be a reliable OOB for St Albans, Wakefield and Towton.

    Actually ever since I saw CA would come out with MTW I've been asking in the forums if they would have a war of the Roses campaign. Well guess now its gonna happen!

    Blore Heath is Salisbury vs Audley right? Another thing I'm hoping for is perhaps CA does or rather redoes Kingmaker to make it a bit more historically accurate and of course includes its unique and incredible battle system. Or perhaps just for the heck of it someone will mod STW WE/MI for England and we can fight the war of the Roses there. I don't see how it would be very difficult. Of course it would lack the cool things you can do in MTW like giving out titles and stuff as well as the crucial virtues and vices. Still it would be a neat thing if someone could do that!

    If ever you want to try that out, I got a listing of just about every noble/castellan or constable of note circa that period. You might have that too though because I got it from a war of the Roses site. Check out the online War of the Roses RPG - I forget the website but its got tons of history, names, etc. Even the shields.

    Maybe we could redo the shields and all for that period. I'll give it a go. What factions do you think would be replaced by what shields?

    Major Factions - the Kingmaker game got it almost right I think except I believe the Lancastrian and Yorkist Plantagenets deserve to be an independent faction. A major problem of MTW is the really poor diplomatic options and the inability to 'really work' with an ally even for short periods of time.

    Neville (of course!!) - Salisbury and Warwick branching into the Yorkist line.
    Percy - Northumberland
    Beaufort - Somerset branching into the Tudor line.
    Stafford - Buckingham
    Holland - Exeter, half brothers to the Lancastrian line
    Grey - of Groby branching into the Woodville line
    Neville of Westmorland - senior branch of the Nevilles, Lancastrian loyalists.
    Courtenay - sometime ally of York but later supported Lancaster after York supported
    family rivals, the Bonville family.
    Mowbray - Norfolk, hereditary marshals of England, branch into the Howard line
    Fitzalan - Arundel, generally a pieceful or neutral faction.
    de la Pole - at first Lancastrian mainstays later became close to Richard of Gloucester
    through marriage (John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln was Richard's nephew) and
    led the last Yorkist attempt on the throne that ended at Stoke.

    There are lots of minor branches but I think most can be incorporated into the major factions as generals and such - families like Roos, Scrope of Masham, Scrope of Bolton,
    Devreaux (Ferrers of Chartley), Clifford, Fiennes (Dacre of Gillesland), Butler (Lord Ormonde Earl of Wiltshire), Hungerford, Talbot, Bonville, Paston, Audley, Grey of Ruthyn, de Vere of Oxford (too much of a Lancastrian mainstay, perhaps the most loyal of the great Lancastrian lords) or famous knights like Sir Thomas Kyriel, Sir Robert Brackenbury, Sir Andrew Trollope etc. The idea should be maybe York, Lancaster, Neville (younger branch), Percy, Stafford, Grey, Courtenay, Mowbray, Fitzalan, De la Pole as major warring factions with major adherents and minor Lords making up their command and staff - Lancaster should get Beaufort, Tudor and de Vere as major commanders.

    Anyways just thinking out loud. I really wish they would make a decent War of the Roses game with the perks and graphics and battles of MTW, the RPG aspect of Pirates Gold or a real RPG, the trading options of Merchant Prince and the political options (and this game SHOULD be more politics than battles) of Tropico.

    Sigh... I can dream can't I?

    Best of luck!
    Gilbert de Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Bullethead/dclare4,

    FYI guys, there are some nice flag images for both WOTR factions at -
    http://www.warflag.com/flags/medieval/wotr.shtml

    Whilst they look a bit bland they easily touch up nicely if you have Picture It! or some other such graphics editor.

    These are a free resource for the purposes of figure wargaming but are NOT to be copied on other websites without approval (I've E-mailed Ian at warflag.com to ask permission to use his images for the purposes of MTW modding but have yet to receive a reply).

    At least it's something to refer to.

    (PS: good luck with the campaign, I'm currently doing the Italian Wars - jeez, wish I'd never started!)


  14. #14
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    dclare4 said:
    Quote If ever you need a playtester or whatever or research material just drop me a line![/QUOTE]

    Certainly.

    Quote Actually ever since I saw CA would come out with MTW I've been asking in the forums if they would have a war of the Roses campaign. Well guess now its gonna happen! [/QUOTE]

    Whoa now, pard, don't be getting your hopes up here. I'm just making historical battles right now. IF I find I enjoy this for the long term, and IF they turn out to be good battles, and IF I then find myself at a loss for other things to do, THEN maybe I'll put together an historical campaign using some of these battles. But I don't ever see myself doing any strat game mods.

    Quote Blore Heath is Salisbury vs Audley right?[/QUOTE]

    Yup, the opening battle of "Round 2" of WotR.

    Quote Another thing I'm hoping for is perhaps CA does or rather redoes Kingmaker to make it a bit more historically accurate and of course includes its unique and incredible battle system.[/QUOTE]

    Ah, Kingmaker, one of my favorites from years ago. I liked how KM's campaign was set up as a very random thing, for replayability. Every game, each side had different nobles and all those random events to make things very different each time. The battle system was excellent for its day, too, and in some respects more realistic than MTW's due to the near impossibility of giving tactical orders once battle was joined. Too bad that's not something most gamers appreciate.

    Wellington:

    Thanks for the link but I'm in no way an artist. I just use other people's work, either CA's or mods. Now, if somebody else makes some WotR graphics for MTW, I'll be quite happy to incorporate them into my battle, but until then it's Denmark vs. Poland

    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 09-30-2002).]
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Cavalry with or without pistols?
    What do you think?

    I'v got a musket guy to charge and fight
    with gun so far any use?

    LK

  16. #16
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    Lord Krazy said:
    Quote Cavalry with or without pistols?
    What do you think?[/QUOTE]

    I'm going with lances for the WotR stuff. Chivalric knights and mounted sergeants. That's what the contemporary illustrations show.

    Quote I'v got a musket guy to charge and fight with gun so far any use?[/QUOTE]

    Well, that would be useful for all kinds of things, not just Napoleanics. I've read several times that the old pre-bayonet matchlock guys usually used their musket as a club despite being issued a broadsword. Supposedly, the swords were so soft they bent on the 1st chop in combat, so it was safter to use the bangstick.

    The sources assume this was because the pre-industrial, mass-produced blades issued to cannonfodder were just cheaply made. They say the same thing about most bayonets up through WW1. But being an old campaigner myself, I have another theory. I believe that most military blades saw a LOT of use as BBQ spits to cook looted chickens over the campfire. This would have taken the temper out of the steel pretty quickly. So I figure the steel was good to start with, but the soldiers ruined it themselves .

    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    thats why I tought a club would be good.

    So anyway send me a couple of your pics
    please if you can,or a link maybe
    it will help for animations.


    LK

  18. #18
    Voice Crying in the Wilderness Member Bullethead's Avatar
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    I don't have any handy picks. I mean, I've got books that have Tudor-vintage woodcuts showing arqs in various combat poses, like the manual of arms illustrations of later times. But I don't have a scanner

    ------------------
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria
    -Bullethead

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria

    And by chance, if the enemy routs, you come upon some nubile nymph or doxy that strikes your fancy, remember: Hands off! Rank has its privileges. I pick first! - Ferrano the Chivalrous, Conqueror of Marakesh

  19. #19

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    Nice flag site! I'll see if I can do some tga flags for your battles. I do have a number of shields and heraldic designs as well as a heraldry guide that is most informative. I was hoping to do a WotR campaign for Age of Empires II:Age of Kings way way way back - and to remedy the things I felt were 'wrong' with Kingmaker. I'm sorry I'm just a diehard history freak I guess. Want things accurate as far as possible.

    Anyways, can't wait to see Blore Heath. Is it 1:1 scale soldierwise?

    Gilbert de Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  20. #20

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    BTW Lord Krazy,

    Are the 'fighting arquebusier' files up already? And the pistol cavalryman? Would you be able to do these animations and make them like actual units?

    The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to do a new campaign - Reformation Total War or something like that. Basically taking off a short time from where MTW ends - at the onset of the Reformation. Units are much more expensive to raise but are now larger and for the most part more professional due to the nationalization and the growing power of royalty with the fall of the nobility. Players will be forced to rely on trade (ships are now cheaper and faster), there will be more firepower based units - from raw militia levees and trained bands to tercio 'pyke and shotte', grenadiers (naptha throwers with arquebuses perhaps?) and various types of cavalry - light cavalry, lancers, dragoons, heavy lancers, reiters, cuirassiers with a few specials like Polish Hussars.

    Light Cavalry - unarmored scouts, poor charge - ex hobilars.

    Dragoons - unarmored w/ buffcoat, poor charge, dismountable with carbines.

    Lancers - light lance armed cavalry

    Heavy Lancers - basically heavily armored lance armed knights.

    Cuirassiers - your pistol armed heavy armored cavalry.

    Reiters - the famous Swedish-style cavalry armed with back and breastplate and using the charge to contact tactic.

    Germany, France and England will have Protestant and Catholic factions struggling for power (such as the Huguenots vs Duc de Guiche) and will replace some other factions to include the Netherlands (ex Almohads - orange!), Sweden and Scotland.

    I can do the campaign etc but I was hoping that you would be able to provide the troops particularly the pistol armed cavalry.

    Thanks,
    Gilbert de Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
    BTW Lord Krazy,

    Are the 'fighting arquebusier' files up already? And the pistol cavalryman? Would you be able to do these animations and make them like actual units?

    The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to do a new campaign - Reformation Total War or something like that. Basically taking off a short time from where MTW ends - at the onset of the Reformation. Units are much more expensive to raise but are now larger and for the most part more professional due to the nationalization and the growing power of royalty with the fall of the nobility. Players will be forced to rely on trade (ships are now cheaper and faster), there will be more firepower based units - from raw militia levees and trained bands to tercio 'pyke and shotte', grenadiers (naptha throwers with arquebuses perhaps?) and various types of cavalry - light cavalry, lancers, dragoons, heavy lancers, reiters, cuirassiers with a few specials like Polish Hussars.

    Light Cavalry - unarmored scouts, poor charge - ex hobilars.

    Dragoons - unarmored w/ buffcoat, poor charge, dismountable with carbines.

    Lancers - light lance armed cavalry

    Heavy Lancers - basically heavily armored lance armed knights.

    Cuirassiers - your pistol armed heavy armored cavalry.

    Reiters - the famous Swedish-style cavalry armed with back and breastplate and using the charge to contact tactic.

    Germany, France and England will have Protestant and Catholic factions struggling for power (such as the Huguenots vs Duc de Guiche) and will replace some other factions to include the Netherlands (ex Almohads - orange!), Sweden and Scotland.

    I can do the campaign etc but I was hoping that you would be able to provide the troops particularly the pistol armed cavalry.

    Thanks,
    Gilbert de Clare
    [/QUOTE]

    ---------------------------------------------

    I am thinking along similar lines
    maybe we can do some work togeather
    on this one .

    I'v had power problems so no uploads yet.

    LK

  22. #22

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    Sure thing LK, I'm up for doing the campaign and reworking some of the units. I'm thinking of making the Orthodox into Protestant and the Pagan into Orthodox (since is mainly Russia and the Balkans that has this - I'm not sure how pagans will handle their priests thats all) but I hope to let them keep the Orthodox priests for proseletyzing. I'm thinking I'll replace maybe the grand inquisitor with Protestant Minister or something like that and use the assasin figure perhaps. Also I want to give the priests/etc more powers and if possible emissarial powers. I want the units to be way higher priced but also larger so that it becomes less a game of war and more of 'diplomacy' or 'cold war' - since historically this was not much of a warlike era in the way the HYW or Crusades were. But you still get lots of action in Italy and vs the Turks as well as the power struggle in France, Germany and England between Catholic and Protestant groups.

    Regards,
    Gilbert de Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  23. #23
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    cool.

    LK

  24. #24
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    PAF

    Cheetah - everything to this post by kraellin is good regarding models,

    everything after this post is hostory/WOTR mod related, not as important, but may be some usefull notes

    Quote Originally posted by Kraellin:
    fascinating. nice job, bullet, and thanks, gil. youo guys really did open this stuff up for modding. it is appreciated. thanks longjohn, et al.

    K.
    [/QUOTE]

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    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

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