Post patch changes in SP gameplay

[econ21]

Anyone got any views on how the patch changes SP gameplay, particularly in the early period? The biggest change seems to be restricting units to periods (for details, select faction in the totalwarassemby website to see what is available when).
Here's what I see as the implications for starting a campaign in the early period:

1) You can't rely on a tech superiority over the AI anymore. Arbalesters, chiv. sergeants and caravels used to give you a decisive edge over the AI but are available only after 1205. This implies you need bigger armies (& fleets) than before. More generally, it may encourage either boring "rush" strategy of overwhelming neighbours by numbers or alternatively a rather pacific building game in the early period, in preparation for major offensives after 1205.

2) There is a little less need to up-tech buildings. You want feudal sergeants and probably men-at-arms, but you can't get more than archers so the bowyer guild can wait. Given the long building lags in getting to the stage you can have arbalesters and chivalric sergeants, you still want to build to prepare for those before 1205 but can probably afford to build up economic, morale and armour boosting buildings first.

3) Ranged combat is probably even less effective now (pre-patch I modded the ammo for arrows to 98, rather than 28, out of dissatisfaction with this aspect of the game). Archers are far inferior to arbalesters, especially against armour and in the rain (which the AI often sensibly attacks in). Might make buying some catapults for additional ranged defence attractive.

4) Upgrades to weapons, armour and morale are probably more important in giving you an edge given the lack of tech superiority.

5) Crusades are more attractive now: Order Foot and Knights are essentially good chiv. Sergeants and knights but you can get them 100 years early by going on crusade!

I've read a little about other changes in the patch - the unit balancing seems to have been mainly (entirely?) in terms of cost and my first impression is that it does not alter anything essential for the SP game. Anyone drawn any other lessons for gameplay from the patch?

[This message has been edited by Simon Appleton (edited 11-07-2002).]

[Galestrum]

personally the patch is smoke and mirrors - and is what we should have had upon release

the strategic and tactical AI, along with the diplomacy is and forever will be, not up to par and thus kills the game, at least for me

yeah, era restrictions, increased siege costs, and the other marginal improvements are all neat, but those are not the things which killed the game for me

[Galestrum]

to answer your question, sorry its late =P is

i dont think the patch really did anything to improve the SP campaign. none of the added/modifed features has a significant impact upon the game for me

im sure no one has had to adjust how they play and the results are the same as pre-patch

(1) agent and heir color desinations for next in line and mission designation - whoopdy doo - nice and all but so what

(2) havent noticed too much diff regarding how enemy generals react/behave, they still seem to just charge headlong towards death

bah too much to write in order to say

yeah patch is nice, shoulda had a long time ago and perhaps upon release? nothing in it wow'd me

[Rosacrux]

Simon

good job pal, I haven't had the time to dig into the patched game myself (too much bloody @#&@^@#$ work ) but I find your comments rather useful. Hopefully I shall be able to post my own comments after weekend.

[favedave]

1. I notice I've been catching enemy ships more often in battle. Even faster ships than mine.

2. I always autocalc sieges (I find them boring) and I am taking WAY MORE casualties than I did pre-patch. That's cool - I'll adjust.

3. The Auto Tax is broken. Or adjusted or something. It used to put all your provinces on the highest tax that it could as long as the loyalty stayed over 100%. Now the level seems to be around 150%. Anything less and it lowers the tax.


This is the only annoying change I've found. I have to manually set everything for maximum taxes now. A minor annoyance.

Other than that - I LOVE THE "v" KEY. It nows shows what sea lanes are blockaded. It should've been there from the start.

Still - I've played this game a jillion hours. I love it.

[+DOC+]

You should find the campaign more difficult now because the AI now favours building better quality units in provinces where a choice exists (i.e. you shouldn't see tons of AI peasant armies anymore). So expect to see better quality AI army mixes now.

The autotax thing, if it has changed to be set at a higher level, will seriously benefit the AI who would constantly succumb to revolts/rebellions in the latter stages.

Apparently one now gains conquest points for occupying the sea provinces too. This may have been in the first release, but up until now i certainly didn't notice it!? Can someone confirm whether this is related to the patch?

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=MizuDoc=

[Maelstrom]

Quote Originally posted by favedave:

3. The Auto Tax is broken. Or adjusted or something. It used to put all your provinces on the highest tax that it could as long as the loyalty stayed over 100%. Now the level seems to be around 150%. Anything less and it lowers the tax.


This is the only annoying change I've found. I have to manually set everything for maximum taxes now. A minor annoyance.
[/QUOTE]

From other threads I have read in the forums, I think this is a sensible change. The 100% limit made you vulnerable to rebellions should some adverse event happen during the turn resolution phase (loose your king, get him cut off from your empire, get excommunicated etc).

I personally always aim for about 140% loyalty for safety.

The main thing I have discovered from the patch is that it fixes the CTD I was experiencing during the turn resolution phase after abot 100 yrs play. Hopefully I will be able to complete some campaigns now. This was really my only gripe with what was otherwise a fantastic game, so I am currently a very happy Maelstrom.

Of course, I have not ventured into MP yet....

[chunkynut]

Hi
This isn't an arsey reply just a disagreement (and i agree with galestrum that this 'patch' should have been with the released game). The tech tree patching so you cannot get advanced units being patched states that it was already faulty so the AI would not try and build buildings for units it could not (or thought it could not) build. This is not a disadvantage that causes you to change tactics (rush) it just keeps the AI at the same level, tech wise, as you.

Result = SP game more balanced.

I personally can only see this as a good thing both true to history and to a balanced game.

[smoothdragon]

The patch made some very nice improvements, i.e. the rebellion stoplights now work correctly and I can depend on them. The game also crashes less, but CTD still happens. My computer will still lock up if I try to exit the game via the menu (since I got the game I have had to use alt+tab and then control+alt+delete and close the game that way). Hopefully in the next patch, this problem will be fixed as well as strengthening the AI some more. I must say the AI is more challenging and aggressive post-patch.

[Kraxis]

1:
There is a lot of costchanges as well, most spears, if not all, have been hiked. Most cavalry have been dropped in price (Alans have been hiked to 200). Good!

2:
Buildings don't give any Valours anymore. So there is no need to go to certain levels for certain factions. Byzantines don't need to go past Town Guard for one.

3:
The timeperiod limitation. A nice addition. Don't like the idea of not being able to produce the only highquality Byzantine unit in Late though.

4:
During sieges your armies cost 2x upkeep (not the initial year after victory).

5:
Some unitstats changes????

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Piney]

Kraxis

Quote :
2:
Buildings don't give any Valours anymore. So there is no need to go to certain levels for certain factions. Byzantines don't need to go past Town Guard for one.

Quote

I havent played after patch, but had time to open building txt and it seems they moved valour upgrades to last building in line, but now all lines have it. (Can't confirm if it actually works, but coding is done that way)

Edit : Btw they put valour in horsebreeder line too, and as you can build em level 4 without castles it seem good idea to do so ASAP. (all mounted units get +1 valour)

Soeren

[This message has been edited by Piney (edited 11-07-2002).]

[cart6566]

That has been my experience so far, Piney. Although it seems like the Master Spearmaker gives +2 valor to Chiv Sgts. I will have to check this out when not at work.

[Brown Wolf]

One thing I noticed with this new patch is that rebel armies seem larger. I was playing the Danes in the early period and I had sent a ship to scottland so that I could take it and I noticed that the Scotts had two very large armies where they used to only have one army that was about half "full" for the particular general. I also noticed a large army for the peasant revolt that occured.

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"No Comment"

[eat cold steel]

> 3. The Auto Tax is broken. Or adjusted or something. It used to put all your provinces on the highest tax that it could as long as the loyalty stayed over 100%. Now the level seems to be around 150%. Anything less and it lowers the tax.

You can change you perfered setting on the command line with "c:\total war\medieval.exe" -loyalty:130

I may be wrong on the command because I am at home now, if it doesn't work try -loyalties, or maybe without the :

[MizuKokami]

well...personally, the patch for sp has hurt poland's chances, especially in early period. poland is on the edge next to germany and hungry. the rebels that are all around them are pagans, and don't take kindly to catholic rulers. the rebellion i had in prussia consisted of about 2700 men, and this being in the 3rd year of the campaign. in moldavia, the rebellion wasn't as many men, but had about 1800, with about 6 units of militia sargeants (which as i understand it, no province is supposed to be able to have rebellions that consist of units that province can't produce). again, this was in the third year. before, i was able to take almost all the rebel provinces and put down any rebellions that arose with little difficulty. now, i not only can't keep my provinces from being lost to rebellions, but since i can't build polish retainers anymore, don't stand a chance against the russian boyars, as they can decimate spears, even when they are in trees, and seem to be impervious to regular archers.
further, even tho i can't build crossbow units until it's time, i can build crossbow cav with only a bowyer and a breeder. and the rebels in prussia start with 2 units of crossbows, inspite of the fact they aren't available for another fifty years or so. i suppose i could bribe those units in prussia, but between the upkeep cost and the fact that poland only starts with 2 provinces, i wouldn't be able to afford to build my lands up. i used to ba able to make a little cash by fighting rebels, but 3000 rebels are a little much. all i ask, is that they pull the rebellions down a bit, like say, 1000 men, instead 2000-3000. and that the rebels are also resticted to the same units that are available for the period.

[eat cold steel]

> no province is supposed to be able to have rebellions that consist of units that province can't produce

Not the province itself, but anywhere on the map.

[Saki]

Hi MizuKokaml
Think I might crank a Polish game up sounds challaging.The Poles are meant to be a hard faction to play This will be my first campaign since patch,so im not speaking from experience.If I can not build Polish retainers in the early peroid I will build royal knights and/or mounted seargents if poss.We should be able to upgrade royal knights now to as time passes

Seee ya all laters me off to polish the world.

[Brown Wolf]

It seems I am not the only one with the rebellion size problem after all. Why were the rebels given so many units all of a sudden. I have to spend years building an army just to take one province. And with the Danes that is very hard.

(I am glad to see so many programmers from CA here though)

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"No Comment"

[zipnar]

hehe maybe rebellions have a "floring value" and now that they are cheaper units...well be careful what you wish for eh?

[smoothdragon]

Quote > no province is supposed to be able to have rebellions that consist of units that province can't produce

Not the province itself, but anywhere on the map.[/QUOTE]

Does this mean rebellions such as Pope and re-emerging factions can have units that they personally couldn't build but I can? I don't really see this as a fair, as those factions never had gothic knights so why should their rebel armies have them just because I do?