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Thread: Ashigaru-- Worthless Mouse-Men, or the Greatest Military Innovation of

  1. #1
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Well, what does everyone think? Historically? In the game?

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    Member Member Zone's Avatar
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    In the game? If you know the enemy army is made up of them, you can easily beat an army 3 times your size if you have SA and YS. On the other hand, the computer doesn.t account for the fact that your army may be completely made up of them so it runs away. So they're very much an advantage to the player in the game against the computer. In multiplayer? I don't know. Historically? I have no idea.

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    Member Member BakaGaijin's Avatar
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    Historically speaking, ashigaru were very important. In terms of the game, they're useful for filling up space in the line. They won't perform miracles, but they'll be there to take hits and dish out a little damage when you need them to. And they'll do it cheaply!

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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Historically they were very important because
    the ruling daimyo didn't have to pay to maintain a large standing army.When the fighting was over the ashigaru were disbanded and went back to their farms.
    This is represented in the game by the low cost of maintaining ashi's in your army. With armor and weapon upgrades they make useful and cheap cav killers,combined with ND as flank supporters, and also rout chasers
    and garrison troops.

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    Member Member jomni's Avatar
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    In the game, an experienced Ashigaru unit can easily destroy cavalry formaitons.

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    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Yet do we not see some contradictions?

    The Oda relied very heavily on their Ashigaru, right up until the end, and not just as "Cav-killers". Could one not argue that Ashigaru were truly the way of the future, and that the Oda were victorious largely because of their emphasis on these troops?

    In the actual game, though, having a mostly Ashi army in the beginning is a handicap. Having any significant number of Ashis among your combat troops in a pitched fight, late in the game, is really a waste. They have some use, simply as occupation troops, throughout the game, but in combat they are pure cannon fodder. The level of honor they have to gain to stand toe-to-toe with even green Yari Samurai is rather daunting. And as far as weapons and armor upgrades-- YS can get those too, with better bang for buck.

    In multiplayer, now that morale is fixed and weapons and armor upgrades are more expensive, are they good for anything other than a cheap, last ditch Cav trump?

    I would estimate, through my experiences, that in STW they are "worthless mouse-men". I never used them in MP, and never saw them used there. I played many campaigns, and never bought them for anything other than police duty. Their pathetic abilities and unreliable nature made them, in combat, more of a liability than anything.

    Is this a fitting representation of the class of soldier that carried the Oda to ultimate triumph? That made up, on average, a third of all wartime troops during the Sengoku Jidai? Think on it.

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    Member Member Gothmog's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that muskets are considered as one kind of Ashigaru.

    And they are heavily used both on MP and campaigns, for good reasons.

    In that aspect, the secret of Oda's domiation was indeed accurately reflected in the game play.
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    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    I had a sinking feeling I should've clarified that.. I'm talking about Yari Ashigaru. These were the backbone of the Oda armies. Yes, Teppu Ashigaru were also widely employed, but Yari Ashigaru mostly.

    Someone back me up here? At least on the historical facts? Hmm.

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  9. #9
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    actually i use yari ashi an awful lot in the sengoku campaigns, especially early on, when most of my army will be ashi.

    When combined with a good general and sufficient archer support (to knock the enemy's numbers and morale down)
    plus back them up with a couple of yari sam and they can hold their own.

    Build them where they'll get an honour bonus.
    Don't let them wander too far from friendlies on the battlefield,
    Keep a unit or two 'in reserve' behind them,
    and don't get flanked.
    Watch for wavering and re-inforce the mellee, (use your general's unit or Daimyo).
    If built where there is a drill dojo they'll rally fairly often.

    They cost half as much to build as Yari Sams, so you can commit twice as many for the same cost!

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  10. #10
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    and since i posted this i have been playing a few turns of a campaign,

    in bungo as defender, I had 3 h1 YA's, one h1 SA and a h3ND (general)
    vs 4h1SA and 3h1YS,
    i setup on the hillock type thingy mid back left, with one YA in the little grove of trees, concealed, and the ND in the big group of trees, also concealed and well back,
    the AI came up and peppered my SA, my other 2 YA were far enough behind the SA not to catch any overshoots, meanwhile the AI had every unit hit by at least one volley of arrows,
    as soon as my Arrows ran out i set all units to loose formation and charged,

    the ND coming in on the flank routed 2 SA, the concealed YA routed another SA, and my reduced SA backed by 2 YA's took on the 3xYS
    who got a little upset that both flanks of SA collapsed and decided they'd collapse too...
    i won

    also in MP (on the old STW server) both Dark Phoenix and ShadeLord whipped me well and truly with mostly Ashi armies, the higher honour Ashi's took out my ND's and YS quite quickly.

    Back em up with a good mellee unit of high honour and they take courage from having a nasty friend behind them! (nasty to your opponent that is)



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  11. #11
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    useful (in the game) only as arrow-catchers and bait. when i see an enemy with large ashi numbers in his banner, i get a warm fuzzy feeling....



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    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Ashigaru were so important in the 16th century that they in fact became the lowest rank of the samurai class during the Tokugawa shogunate. Armies of the period were massively comprised of ashigaru. Historically they were excellent troops. The game undervalues them in that it is too easy not to rely on them as daimyos actually did. If koku were harder to come by and samurai more difficult to raise we would use ashigaru in campaigns a lot more.
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    Naughty Little Hippy Senior Member Tachikaze's Avatar
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    Historically, ashigaru revolutionized Japanese medieval warfare. By mid-Sengoku, most armies were majority ashigaru. The effeciveness of ashis was very dependent on their training. If well-trained, they would be comparable to the GIs of WW2.

    I think their effectiveness was under-represented in contemporary histories because they were not as romantic or notable as samurai. In fact many contemporary paintings omit them altogether.

    I agree with Nelson on his comments about ashis in the game. I don't use them unless I have a particular job for them to do. If they were realistically represented in the game, I would probably make them half of my force.


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    Member Member Pachinko's Avatar
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    Here, here... Yep. Your right Khan7! I have the book from "Ashigaru" by Turnbull. It says the "book" it said '27 percent of his(Oda)fighting force,compared to 13.5 percent for the arquebusiers.'

    'Hojo armies included between 33 percent and 50 percent of all men armed with spear.'

    Thats alot!!

    So Khan7,your on the money!

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    Member Member Tankdogg123's Avatar
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    Khan7 I went to your site and I like your ideas. One question is the mod just a recommdation of what I should change my troops stats too?
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    Member Member Tankdogg123's Avatar
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    On ashigaru I am shocked that they couldn't even beat archers in h2h. After all archers aren't even supposed to be a melee unit.
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    Member Member shawn-san's Avatar
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    Khan,

    Oda used ashis in all configurations. But in his biggest slaughter, he used musketeers to mow down cavalry. The Takeda came at him with as many as 30000 cavalry, Nubunaga built a palisade on a pass, built it up higher than nay horse could jump, set his musketeers on the steps of the palisade, and watched as wave after wave of Takeda cavalry got slaughtered.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member Forward Observer's Avatar
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    I surprised that no one has mentioned their speed in the game. Early on in the game, before you are able to train cavalry, they are the only troops that can easily catch routing enemy troops, and help get your headcount up.

    Also, in playing the single player campaigns on expert level, you only start with 1000 koku. In developing several formulas to I have found that Ashi's are a necessity.
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  19. #19
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tankdogg123:
    On ashigaru I am shocked that they couldn't even beat archers in h2h. After all archers aren't even supposed to be a melee unit. [/QUOTE]

    But the SA were well trained samurai warriors. They aren't pure missle unit like the musk.


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    Member Member theforce's Avatar
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    Well l only use ashis on low koku games. I also use them in one player when l am attacking bridges so they can take all the arrows.
    Also you can have 1 mid-range ashi behind your guns to prevent enemy can units from charging them while your first line made up from ys or nag is a bit far away from the gunfight.

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  21. #21
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Hmm.. well I have gotten mixed responses.. but it seems that the general consensus is that Ashis should be better represented in the game (as well as spears in general).

    This has been one of the primary goals of my work with the Real Deal mod. I am of course unsure of some of the choices I have made, so it is really critical that as many of you good thinkers as can, get it and try it.

    I will not be too involved with all of this in the next few days, mainly cuz I've got a new girlfriend and she will be occupying much of my free time. Soon I hope to be back here in the thick of things, though.

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  22. #22
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    perhaps you could find a way to limit the total number of cetain troop types, in order to make the ashi a more mainstream unit. of course, i'd really hate it if i spent 600 koku for a sword dojo only to be able to build three units of no-dachi, but you get the picture. by limiting the number of more desireable units (ie monks) available at any given time (or available per banner), the ashi would become the default main unit.

  23. #23
    Member Member BakaGaijin's Avatar
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    Actually, I feel that the Yari Samurai is pretty well-represented. They're tough enough to stand up to most attacks and can still dish out a lot of damage. They're really good all-purpose units. You can use them for just about anything, and they'll do it better than the Ashi!

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    Member Member Gothmog's Avatar
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    Agree with BakaGaijin.

    Yari advantage is represented sufficiently in the game. Actually maybe a bit too much such that it made cavalry less effective than what they should be.

    As far as ashigaru's concern, in order to represent their importance, I suggest that you edit the rule such that: there must be AT LEAST CERTAIN PERCENTAGE of the ashigaru (gun units or yari units) in the ENTIRE army of the daimyo.

    For instance, suppose there are 50,000 soldiers from the entire kingdom, then at least 40% of them (20,000) has to be ashigaru. Otherwise you just CAN'T recruit any other types of military units. (If you really want to stretch it, then make sure that 50% of that 40% has to be yari ashigaru)


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  25. #25
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Rrrrg..

    Blaming it all on logistics is not only an impractical line of reasoning in terms of improving the game.. it is in my opinion not a feasible way to deal with the problem-- period, even with unlimited possibilities and resources.

    I would humbly suggest that someone go take a good look at the 100 hours or more worth of work that is available for browsing and download, so far only on my site. It's obviously got flaws, but it seeks to address every single issue that people have raised here, and uses at least one technique that is totally new, unique, and critical to the improvement of the game. At least take this knowledge and use it yourselves, people.

    //P.S.: Okay, okay, perhaps people just are sick of the game and don't want to mess with it anymore, and are just here engaging in idle conversation. In that case, I take it all back, never mind.//

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    [This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 10-22-2001).]
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  26. #26
    Member Member BakaGaijin's Avatar
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    Goth: Forcing people to do something just isn't any fun.

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  27. #27
    Member Member Tankdogg123's Avatar
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    khan u didn't answer my question. I have downloaded the mod but what exactly does it do?
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    Member Member ragedevil's Avatar
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    Ashi usless on multiplayer game as far as im concerened, they too much a liability. On SP...(who wants to play that anyway)...they are good coz they el cheapo units and the units u fight on sp tend to be weak anyhow.

  29. #29
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    ok Tankdogg, I will stoop to accomodate your paradigmal embodiment of the American channel-flipping culture. You unzip it to the Shogun directory. You find the little .bat file that switches files in and out, and run it. If that doesn't work for you, there are instructions on how to do it manually, which is really very very easy anyway.

    Next time perhaps u should read the instructions.

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