newbie questions: please forgive my ignorance

[theorist]

hi all! i just bought shogun: warlords edition and i have some questions. please help!

1) in the solo campaign mode... there are 5 campaigns, gengoku, 1530, 1550, 1580, and mongolian...

i noticed gengoku and 1530 campaign start at the same year. are they any different? what is the one i should pick for the most immersive complete shogun experience?

2) i noticed that there is a limit to the amount of buildings you can build in a province? where does it tell you the max? this greatly inhibits me because i am the type of player who likes to max out each province before expanding.

3) i suck in battles. i get slaughtered... even that TUTORIAL MISSION when i had one archer unit and they had a spear unit... it took me 2 HOURS to beat. i don't understand it sometimes. is there a easy newbie formation to use? also, when i click on a unit and drag it out to become a line... if i mess up and don't want the line that way, there is no way to stop "left-clicking" and making them become that formation

4) what in the hell is a throne room for? i never seen a need for it. i go to it often only to find this guy who always gives me advice when i click on him.

5) i had a foreign guy contact me. i said yes i will accept whatever trading or whatnot. i was expecting like a buy menu to open up for foreign goods but no?


so far i really really like this game. i think i may grow to love it. i know i'm pretty late in coming to the shogun scene but better to discover this gem now then never

thank you so much in advance.

[This message has been edited by theorist (edited 10-26-2001).]

[1master1Boromir]

I am sure there are many better equipped to help you than I, but here are my little hopefully helpful hints.

Get to know your controls - You can waste so much time looking at the controls rather than at the screen and what happens around you.

Play online!! - you will learn quickly that way and join a clan to help train you.

Just enjoy the game - 'cos it is great.

There will be many others that will give you better help.

Boromir...

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

1) - i will have to look into that

2) - 12 buildings is the max in a province,
you can upgrade those 12 , where applicable,
castles do not count towards this limit,
this is mentioned somewhere in the manual

3a) - battles are a rock/paper/scissors affair, which units work best agaiinst which, strengths and weaknesses must be worked out,
height is always an advantage - attack from above where you can,
protect missile units, keep your army together mutually supporting each other where you can,
check the fan sites listed at the official total war site for hints, tips and strategies,
lanza's and tokugawa's are good places to start looking,

3b) - before you release the left mouse button press escape and that will cancel the 'draw'

4) - if you look at the map carefully it shows who owns which province, why this is not also shown on the main campaign map i don't know

5) - if the foreigner was portugese you have to build a church and a portugese trading post and then you can build arquebusier,
i think you may have to build a gun factory to get the musket(unsure),
i ALWAYS wait for the Dutch, for whom you merely build a dutch trading post to get the guns!


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[SlackerXS]

as for battlefield, try a couple w/ custom battles... I find them pretty helpful to get the hang of how to use terrain, weather, formations and such...

to TechnoMage of S:
I do believe shogun in battlefield is not just rock/paper/scissors affair... although I do agree units are specialized against other units. Height advantage, fatigue factor, weather, and flanks play a big role in battle also... and these are where strats kick in and make this game a blast to play

[Pachinko]

Hi theorist, Welcome to the STW(Shogun Total War)!!

Well you need the beta 1.01 its better. Here ya go beta 1.01

1. Its all kewl! I dont like the Mongolians..Thats me....

2. For ME I like moral. Palace then Golden Palace etc...And I like the Famous Spear Dojo. Thats first.

3. It sucks at first... Youll be better.

4. Ditto for TechnoMage

5. The GUNS!!! Get it!!


This is me. I dont believe the Multi Players. Its totaly diffrence than the Single Player. I can win ALL of them by expert mode... But the Multi Player... I suck!! Theres a totally diffence for AI...


[This message has been edited by Pachinko (edited 10-26-2001).]

[Maltz]

Quote Originally posted by theorist:

1) i noticed gengoku and 1530 campaign start at the same year. are they any different? what is the one i should pick for the most immersive complete shogun experience?
[/QUOTE]

The Sengoku campaign comes from the original STW. It focuses more on the balance of clans and therefore has quite little historical accuracy EA received quite a few pressure to get it historically correct - that's why we now have the 1530, 50, and 80 campaign.

For me the 1580 campaigns are harder than the others, but for beginners one can start with 1530 or Sengoku and proceed. I have a campaign difficulty rating post somewhere down here if you want to check it out.

Quote
2) i noticed that there is a limit to the amount of buildings you can build in a province? where does it tell you the max? this greatly inhibits me because i am the type of player who likes to max out each province before expanding.
[/QUOTE]

You better expand faster as the AI will outgrow you in no time especially in higher difficulties. Honestly I don't know the answer of this one as I never had a chance to fill up the building menu in a province. Since you have limited resource and need to worry about upkeep, about 4 troop training provinces will be adequate to conquere the country.

Quote
3) i suck in battles. i get slaughtered... Is there a easy newbie formation to use? also, when i click on a unit and drag it out to become a line... if i mess up and don't want the line that way, there is no way to stop "left-clicking" and making them become that formation
[/QUOTE]

Here are some easy rule of thumbs against AI. If you are interested in my war story sereis (http://www.totalwar.org/maltz), there are some more examples.

1. archers/guns (2 ~ 3 men deep at front), hold position, hold formation. After engagement, let them stay at the back shooting the enemy engaged with your melee units.

2. YS, YA... behind archers, when approaching the enemy, assign each of them to attack one enemy unit or 2 vs. 1. Engage at will or hold formation (if the enemy mainstay is powerful).

3. Shock troops (no-dachi, monks, horses, etc.) on the sides and behind your YS/YA. When your YS and YA engages, advance them and attack the engaging enemy units from their back or sides.

The whole poiot of STW battle is about morale. Divide and conquere, outnumber your enemy in small regions with 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. When one group of the enemy is running away, there will be a cascade of morale decline among the close by troops.

Then you can try to match up your units based on the enemy's composition. Generally speaking, spears beat horses, horses beat archers/no-dachi/monks, and no-dachi/monks beat other foot units.

Quote
4) what in the hell is a throne room for? i never seen a need for it.
[/QUOTE]

Emissaries / traders / your emissaries' head come to visit you in the throne room, and you can either accept or decline their proposal. The Japan map in throne room is useful to check out the status of your rivals. Sometimes you will be suprised by how a purple color spread over the east in no time

Quote
5) i had a foreign guy contact me. i said yes i will accept whatever trading or whatnot. i was expecting like a buy menu to open up for foreign goods but no?
[/QUOTE]

You can now build a trading post in provinces you have ports. After the trading post is completed, you can now train ashigaru gunmen. Portuguese comes first (starting 1542 winter) but you will be converted to Christian if you agree on the trade. The Portuguese trading post allows you to build the basic gunman, who cannot fire in rains. If you build 6 churchs and the cathedral, you can train the advanced gunman, who can fire in rain. Dutch comes second (starting 1560s) and directly give you the advanced gunman. Also, you don't have to believe in their God.

[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 10-26-2001).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Welcome Theorist.

To answer your first question, the Sengoku campaign is different from the 1530 one - in that in sengoku all the game's clans are present and have multiple territory. In the stock 1530 campaign, 1 or 2 clans are not yet considered in existence - and most clans have only one or 2 provinces. The 1530 campaign will have you fighting mostly rebels, both in attack and defense. Sengoku will have you battling against organized clans - the biggest diffence being that rebels do not produce any strategic units (Ninja's, Emissaries, Shinobi or Geisha). Thus you do not have to guard against these, but it also means you cannot make peace with, or ally with, the rebels.

For buildings, yes there is a maximum number of "slots" for each province. I am also a perfectionist builer - my campaigns tend to start offensive, until I gain a set defensive line - at which point I turn defensive until I have my important provinces maxed out. (Shinano - Sado - Mushashi). Those 3 are my build and/or upgrade provinces - where my troops gain armor, weapon, morale and discipline bonuses. I will then devote 1 province to other unit production - trying to use one that gives a bonus to some unit type - like archers. Having an archer unit pop out at Honor 3 - moving one province and retraining to get legendary weapons, armor, morale and improved discipline can get you a deadly force in no time. Combine them with solid honor Yari Cav, a couple of Naginata infantry and some +1 honor maxed out musketeers (courtesy of Mushashi and a gun factory) and you have a defensive force that will often tear the heart out of an attacker 3x its size.

Once you invincible - start on your offensive force - concentrating on high power units WITH some good ranged support. WM, ND and NC are the 3 best units for this. YC is also good. Once your more comfortable, you can even use CA - but they can be challenging.

As for realtime battleing - a few hints. Use the PAUSE key (P key is default) often. Pause, "draw" your formation, unpause and go. If you misdraw it - just redraw it again. The last formation order is the ones that is used. If your unsure of where a unit is headed - pause the action and hold down the space bar - it will show u the destination of all your units. One note - after pausing and giving an order (or using the buttons on top for formation or order changes) - u must unpause for a moment to have those orders relayed. U can immediately repause and see what orders you gave.

I find this to be EXTREMELY helpful in battle against the AI - as often there are more things going on than you can see to start with. As time goes on you will gradually need to use this less and less. I tend now to use it only when I am attempting to get a "perfect" or extreme kill ratio battle - the enemy slaughtered without a single man lost, or a very few men lost to give a good kill ratio. (So far - my best has been over 1000+ killed with no loss).

As for the tutorial - the archer mission is BLOODY difficult - especially since I always had to play it in bad rain. The key is shoot as long as you have a good, solid height advantage and are not in danger of losing it. When the spears are getting to where the slope of the hill they are climbing is diminishing, you have to be charging and hitting them. Height is a true and realistic bonus in h2h fighting. (Its also good for your ranged attackers.)

Also practice the art of flanking - especially when you have more units. Attacking on a flank, or better yet, the rear of a unit - will cause increased casualties for them, along with a serious morale penalty. Before long you will be routing units with the best of them.

A couple of other hints for combat - with the patch and some smart firepower concentration, its possible to break one unit - making other more likely to run or break sooner. Break the first samurai unit - and you have little to fear from ashigaru - and u will have an easier time routing the rest of the samurai nearby as well. Alot of new folks try taking out the enemy Diamyo if he is present. Unless you have the right forces and opportunity - don't. He will live longer than he has a right to - and the attempt will put many of your troops in a vulnerable position.

The Throne room is useful for 2 things. First, it provides you with the latest ownership map. Look closely and u can see what clan owns what provinces - although u get no details other than ownership. This is helpful when choosing alliances or when deciding between allies. (After all - would you choose you ally as shimazu if your other ally mori had him locked into 3 provinces? I think not!) Such a thing requires regular checking. The throne room is also used when an emissary or trader comes. This is really just eye candy, as turning off the throne room speeds the game. Since you cannot kill the emissary (although the AI can kill yours) - once you see the animations a few hundred times - u will get tired of it and turn it off - using a text popup window to make your ruling decisions. The old guy giving advice quotes Sun-Tzu, but it is only semi-random and for entertainment value, not much use for the strategic or tactical situation your in at the moment. Not much of an advisor.

Accepting trade does not give you a "trade menu", it opens up the ability to create new buildings and thus, new units. The Portuguese offer trade if you become Xtian - but this will cause u some issues with your people unless you are prepared. If you accept, you can build churches and later cathedrals. If you have a church in a city with a port, you may build a portuguese trading post - giving you arquebusiers. If you build a cathedral - u can then build muskets. Or - you can do as some of us do and await the dutch, when there is no price to pay other than the building of the trading post with port - giving you instant access to both gun units. But - the dutch come WELL after the portuguese do... so you may end up fighting muskets before you have them.

Hope these help you mate. Enjoy what is indeed a great game. One other piece of advice - avoid the mongol campaign until your familiar with combat - since if you get slaughtered at the wrong time there - the game is just about over....

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[theorist]

wow. if only the real world was as helpful. i have to say i'm rather surprised at the quick and helpful responses, faster and more thorough than on most game forums i used to traverse.

thanks esp. skkzarg and maltz for your in-depth explanations. i am fully content now

thanks muchos. can't type that much... game's calling!

[theorist]

oh, one last thing!

i'm still a bit confused about drill dojo, armory, swordsmith, etc... MUST the unit be BORN in that province in order to benefit or can i move units from another province in there to reap benefits. thanks.

also same question about how palace and other "add-on" honor and skill buildings...

[clink]

Quote Originally posted by theorist:
oh, one last thing!

i'm still a bit confused about drill dojo, armory, swordsmith, etc... MUST the unit be BORN in that province in order to benefit or can i move units from another province in there to reap benefits. thanks.

also same question about how palace and other "add-on" honor and skill buildings...[/QUOTE]
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Answer to your question is yes,you can move other units in that province to be retrained and get all the upgrades and benefits.

Just make sure they have their birth certifacate for proof of origin.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Theorist,

Your quite welcome. As to your question about armories, swordsmiths, palaces, and drill dojo's - Clink's response is correct. As for gaining honor thru retraining - it is possible. If you have a green (honor 0) unit and retrain it in a province that has a legendary archery dojo - they do come out of the retraining with Honor 2. If you retrain them in a province that gives that unit type an extra honor bonus - then they would come out honor 3. However, to build a unit - move it and retrain it takes 3 turns. Unless your getting a provincial honor bonus, it is best to build the unit where it will recieve the bonuses at the time it is formed. Archers (and occasionally Ashigaru) are the only units that are the exception - as creation of Honor 2 muskets and honor 3 archers are bloody nice. This is why Shinano is probably the most sought after and contested province in all of Japan - between its ability to add the Armor, Weapon, Discipline and Morale bonuses, it also gives ALL cavalry units a +1 to honor - meaning that when the province is maxed out you can create Honor 3,Armor +3,Weapon +3,Morale +3,Discipline +1 cavalry. A pack of Naginata Cavalry like this are deadly - a group of Yari cav and cav Archers like this are dangerous in the extreme.

Consider the time factor in retraining units - often by the time your "maxed out" building your storehouses have alot of koku - and if you may be better of training new units than retraining older ones with low honor.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."