My #1 concern about vikings, does not seem fixed:(

[Rakthar]

Hello folks. I was reading some of the upcoming info in the Main Hall about Vikings, looking and hoping for the news I wanted to see. Sadly it wasn't there, so I was going to reply to the thread - but instead I guess I get to reply here

At any rate, my only complaint about M:TW is the way the computer scales over time. I like to win by total conquest, which means I start in the early era. The computer does an acceptable job during this era, and I have quite the fight on my hands. Once I get a few provinces and a border established, the challenge pretty much ends. I head south towards spain, establish a firm border to keep the computer out, and then push through the Muslim lands.

Even if I don't go this route, the computer never really puts up a good fight. The computer does not cycle out old units (peasants, spearmen) and so they become a drag on the AI economy. The harder game modes are a challenge, but mainly because you try to keep the provinces from rebelling and the AI bonuses - not because of any strategy issues.

The tactical engine in M:TW is really really good. I love the way that the computer can give me a run for my money in some tactical battles, and I think it's great. But the problem is the computer NEVER properly upgrades to later tier units. I have yet to see the computer field an army consisting of chivalric sergeants/men at arms/gothic troops/some of the nice third tier stuff. Instead it's always spearmen and archers and really crappy tier 1 units. To say nothing of AI Provinces with 2000+ peasants just WAITING to rout the entire army.

So I guess what I wanted to see happen in Vikings was that:

1. The computer would stop using Peasants as garrison units, or if they do, hold them back during combat. Peasants routing are an awful thing, and no player uses them for this reason. The computer shouldn't use them, or if they have to, at least tone down the amount they rely on this very limited unit.

2. The computer does not cycle out old units as time goes on. Once I get to the 1300s, I don't want to see spearmen anymore from the AI - only feudal sergeants. If the Computer doesn't cycle out, then the overhead is too high, and they get piddly amounts of good units mixed in with all the leftover crap they have. That's not fun or challenging

Basically I love the tactical engine, but I've yet to have my well trained, highly organized army of late unit troops go in against a well trained, highly organized army of AI late unit troops. Play in the late period you say? Well, that's great, except that I can't win by conquest in the time given to me, and I'd really prefer to have the option to play the game properly, from start to finish. I shouldn't have to play starting in a period I don't want (provinces built all poorly.. ugh) just to get around an AI limitation. I can't believe that any of this would be terribly difficult, and it would up the challenge of the game by at least 50%. I'm a little sad that a lot of the work CA is doing seems 'barely funded' by Activision, ie they get just enough resources to do a reskin/some new units/tweak a bit, and then push out the new expansion.

Please, please, take a bit of a look at the Strategic engine in an upcoming patch, CA. Just make the computer dump outdated units, it can't be _that_ hard. That's my plea as a huge huge fan of the M:TW series.

[some_totalwar_dude]

Well CA did say it made tweaks to the gameplay, and your realy not the only one complaining about this probleme.
so there is a good chance these flaws will be fixed in the expansion.
If not, just check out the wesmod (go read some topics in the dungeon for info) in this mod the AI builds the latest units a soon as there avalible.

I hope this helped a little



edit: I almost forgot Welcome to the forum Rakthar

[LeeJackson]

I agree except for one thing

I have been playing the Biz for the first time and its my first time playing an eastern faction and just last night the Mongols showed up, 11000 men in one province I don’t think my entire continental army measured much more than that. I was lucky though. I chose to fight the battle and was able to kill the Leader reducing the horde to mindless rebels

[Rakthar]

Lee, that's the Golden Horde, a scripted event. They always show up and it's a real surprise when you don't expect it. My favorite is parking like 50 assassins on that square, and having a 'welcome committe' for the Khan when he comes in. Since he doesn't have any heirs, I can buy some very nice heavy cavalry by bribing the remnants after the faction dissolves.

As for the WesMod, I really like it and it fixes a lot of things, but it's still Wes's best attempts at fixing it without being able to do so directly. I was hoping that CA could fix this problem in the base version as well, so that people who didn't download WesMod could still have a challenge against the computer in later eras.

Thanks for the welcome

[LeeJackson]

I knew it was a scripted event and was exspecting it to an extent. I just didn't exspect an army that large poping up.

[Demon of Light]

If they don't come with a huge army, they would never stand a chance at becoming a power in the game.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ May 05 2003,13:13)]If they don't come with a huge army, they would never stand a chance at becoming a power in the game.

The problem with a large army popping up in one province is that it can be easily defeated with a smaller force if you command the battle yourself.

Because of the limitation of 16 units and the rest come on one at a time as later reinforcements.

Win the main battle and rout the enemy (preferrably kill the enemy general) and the rest will come on in small managable groups with lower morale.

Should the battle be won you will have thousands of prisoners and your general will have Skilled/Expert defender and possibly skilled Last Stand.

The Mongols are great when they show up

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Christ,the ai have many a time took me to the cleaners especially the spanish and the russians,especially in late. Please don't make them harder for gods sake. Only the other day i was the swiss and had 3/4 of europe under by belt until the dreaded Rus/Ottoman alliance carved my empire into shreads. The memory of it still gives me sleepless nights.

[SmokWawelski]

But sometimes they are an overkill. Just like in real life, they did not give their enemies any chance

[Brutal DLX]

Well, in general it's true that the AI factions use lower quality units, but that's mainly due to the retreating and pillaging part of the stratmap. As far as I know buildings won't get destroyed in VI as long as the castle is still in control of the defenders, so that should help a lot.
In some of my campaigns though, I've often seen the big AI factions upgrade their provinces to at least 80% farm, citadels and all the military buildings, so once they are warring, they replace the lost unitas with better ones. This is especially bad if they control Spain with all those iron deposits..
(But it's still unlikely to ever see Gothic units if you start a campaign in Early. Even I have to struggle getting them as soon as the Late era starts, as I restrict myself in trading while upgrading most of my provinces at the same time and not focusing on a single one..)
I found that you have to manage the AI factions a bit behind the scenes, i.e. assisting one to help to contain another, so they both can build up their provinces instead of having such a high upkeep cost that they can't afford to build anything anymore.

[GoldenKnightX2]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 05 2003,14:23)]Win the main battle and rout the enemy (preferrably kill the enemy general

Mongols aren't affected by death of general.

[Rakthar]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ May 06 2003,03:04)]Well, in general it's true that the AI factions use lower quality units, but that's mainly due to the retreating and pillaging part of the stratmap. As far as I know buildings won't get destroyed in VI as long as the castle is still in control of the defenders, so that should help a lot.

(But it's still unlikely to ever see Gothic units if you start a campaign in Early. Even I have to struggle getting them as soon as the Late era starts, as I restrict myself in trading while upgrading most of my provinces at the same time and not focusing on a single one..)

Yeah, that's what I meant. The province trading and weak units has to be adressed. The thing is, CA/Activision have been fairly explicit about what's been addressed, and changes to the strategic AI hasn't been mentioned one bit. Again, I think the focus was on pushing out the expansion pack, getting the new units in there, etc.

I guess I was just hoping that the We'll fix it all in the expansion pack promises would be kept. I understand the constraints placed on CA, and I'm sure they'd love to have kept that promise. I'm just a bit dissapointed.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] ] GoldenKnightX2,May 06 2003,10:12

Mongols aren't affected by death of general.

They will lose any valor additions the commander gave them if he dies even if they don't take a morale hit. That always hurts.

Because the Mongol armies are mostly cavalry and cavalry units are smaller than infantry units it is possible to outnumber the Mongols on the field for some time regardless of the total numbers involved.

[Aelwyn]

The main thing I would want to see changed in SP is the cheating of the AI. They DO move in response to your moves, I don't care what people say. If an army is moving back and forth between two provinces, and then they decide not to the year I attack, eventhough their streak of movement dates back around 50 or so years....they're not cheating? I think not. Also, how can the AI produce soo many troops, and get them to a particular place in one year? I have repeated battles where I kill 1-2,000 men, the next year they come with the same size force. I don't think that they've got much more than 8-9,000 men for a moderate size faction (in terms of land they control) yet when I kill about this many, they're still coming with a few thousand more. I understand it might be somewhat necessary for a challenge, but I don't like the cheating.

[cugel]

The main thing I would want to see changed in SP is the cheating of the AI. They DO move in response to your moves, I don't care what people say. If an army is moving back and forth between two provinces, and then they decide not to the year I attack, eventhough their streak of movement dates back around 50 or so years....they're not cheating? I think not. Also, how can the AI produce soo many troops, and get them to a particular place in one year? I have repeated battles where I kill 1-2,000 men, the next year they come with the same size force. I don't think that they've got much more than 8-9,000 men for a moderate size faction (in terms of land they control) yet when I kill about this many, they're still coming with a few thousand more. I understand it might be somewhat necessary for a challenge, but I don't like the cheating.


Jesus
This game is much too easy on the player, even on expert, not too hard The AI needs any advantage it can get It should be able to cheat. At least then it can put up a marginally effective game(well some of the time).

If you have trouble play on normal or easy, that's why they're there.

Most of my campaigns I have to reload moves to help out the AI (not to do something stupid like attacking my ship just because it has a 2-1 advantage in 1 province when I have a huge overall naval advantage). Frankly, it'd be better if the AI cheated a little more.

As for, I don't care what people say ?? the people are CA developers who have stated on more than 1 occasion in this forum that the AI doesn't cheat. Since you haven't seen the game code I don't know how you can insist to the contrary against their clear statements of what they programmed in I think in the absence of hard evidence, not your suspicions, we have to believe them. Of course, you're free to believe in conspiracy theories if you wish

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (cugel @ May 07 2003,00:26)]CA developers who have stated on more than 1 occasion in this forum that the AI doesn't cheat.

Errrr... actually I think we have confessed to a small amount of this kind of cheating :) I had sincerely thought that we didn't do this, but ECS put me straight. It's much less cheaty than it was in Shogun, if that cheers you up, but the AI does still take a small peek at what you're going to do this coming turn. But *usually* this just makes it look like the AI is playing sensibly, as you would in its shoes.

Of course, the golden rule of AI cheats is for it not to be caught, and there are some cheats which you don't notice, but something like this is quite hard to completely disguise.

It has to be said that most games cheat...

[Herodotus]

The way I have interpreted the above is that the AI Factions get to see where you have moved before they move. So they can cover two provinces with one good army taking it wherever it is needed. I think if the player could also do this it would make the game more realistic. But i agree that the AI currently needs advantages and until we get a truly competitive AI, things should stay the same.

[eat cold steel]

I have listed the cheats on the other thread, like money, knowing where your king is all the time, it needs to know where the player has move in order to send in help as allies. Otherwise it plays by pretty much the same rules as the player. It does not build ships in one turn, it's agents do not move to border fort automatically when targetted by your assassins. Even on cheat cash, it gets only up to 60% increase of its farm income. I'd like to see what other games can say about their level of cheating.

[Demon of Light]

EatColdSteel: Does the AI have a trigger for attacking your trade routes? Alot of people have mentioned that the AI has a seemingly foolish propensity for sinking the players ships for no apparent reason and for very little gain. Does the AI try to disrupt your trade if it reaches a certain level?