What is the best way of breaking a wall of Naginata...?

[Mensageiro]

...with a single army. I ask this, because once I had to conquer the island of Sado to complete a STW full campaign with the Shimazu clan.

There was only an army of rebel Naginata (honour 1), and I decided to make a "sneak" attack with an army of warrior monks (honour 0 and wedge formation/engage at will mode). You know, the reputation of warrior monks...but I was defeated! Eventually, I came up with larger numbers and conquered the island. But I've trying, in custom mode, to win the same battle, but I only managed to do it with 120+ units. There must be a way nonetheless to beat the Naginata with a single army...I just wonder which :?

[solypsist]

they're not so hot against cav, despite the fact they have polearms.

[Gothmog]

I believe the bonus against calvary only apply to Yari, instead of pole arm.

[Mensageiro]

I don't know if the problem rests on the +1 honour those Naginata have, but I'll take a chance with Cavalry Archers

And thanks for the tips!

[solypsist]

the defense for your average naginata is 10, so it also helps to have weapons bonuses. don't froget that a high defense value doesn't mean a high attack value; naginata may be tough to slay but don't do much damage either.

[Gothmog]

Arrows are relatively ineffecitive against naginata, especially those from cavalry archers.

If you want range weapon, use guns.

A flank or back charge from the Yari Cavalry or monks is my favorite way of destroying those tin can boys.

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Cavalry all the way, heavy cav or nagitana cav.

[Gothmog]

While Naginata cav is probably the king of Japanese cavalry in MI, between heavy cav and Yari cav, I think YC tend to be more effective offensively. Their higher charge bonus gives them higher killing power, and their faster speed makes it easier to do a flanking or charge from behind. But that's just my opinion.

[Forward Observer]

Nags are easy to defeat.

Three words:

Naked Battlefield Geishas!

Cheers

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[theforce]

We are talking about naginata guys. I would reccoment a head on attack with high armoured units and flanking at the same time. Cav are gonna die against naginata. hey even beat MHC.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[Moriboy]

Nags defeat MHC?????? I tried that in a custom battle once. I put my 60 Nags in hold position & hold formation and waited for the 60 MHC. They charged head on and slaughtered the Nags to a man with only 15 or so losses. Both units were honor 2.

I like a screaming unit of No Dachis to bang a pack-o-Nags in the flank or rear myself.

[LordTed]

Has anyone said go around them...........

[Vanya]

Gah! THe best way to beat naginatas is with naginatas!

That or with arquebusiers in wedgie formation...

[theforce]

What u use hold ground and hold formation to make em last longer and reduce their attacking abilities mate. I did that in tot and the MHC got kicked.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[BakaGaijin]

Quote I would reccoment a head on attack with high armoured units and flanking at the same time.[/QUOTE]

Argh. Don't attack the Nagis head-on with melee units! Use archers in front to hold the Nagis and then flank with the melee units. Even better, attack them from uphill.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Mensageiro]

My challenge has been how to defeat with a single "green" (honour 0) army an army of (honour 1) Naginata. Anything is possible, but I'm not such an expert to do it with a Naginata army

Perhaps I have to review my golden rule of "never to fight against infantry with cavalry", because I had my best results with an army of Heavy Cavalry. Heavy Cavalry wasn't one of my favourites, and I'll have to know some more tricks about them, but they look good. I also tried with Cavalry Archers and they were winning the battle... but as usual Cavalry Archers need to have support of some kind in order to win the battle, and time limit killed me .

Exceptional/Legendary No Dachi or Warrior Monk troops will certainly do the work, but I believe that the "honour bonus" is never as evident as with the No Dachi and the Warrior Monks.

I'm sure that there must be a seasonal factor of some sort that will affect the Naginata...come to think of it, they were particularly vulnerable with snow.

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

Use no dachis... No dachis are a big trouble for naginatas if used in the way u made with the monks!

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!"

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

Quote Originally posted by Mensageiro:
My challenge has been how to defeat with a single "green" (honour 0) army an army of (honour 1) Naginata. Anything is possible, but I'm not such an expert to do it with a Naginata army

Perhaps I have to review my golden rule of "never to fight against infantry with cavalry", because I had my best results with an army of Heavy Cavalry. Heavy Cavalry wasn't one of my favourites, and I'll have to know some more tricks about them, but they look good. I also tried with Cavalry Archers and they were winning the battle... but as usual Cavalry Archers need to have support of some kind in order to win the battle, and time limit killed me .

Exceptional/Legendary No Dachi or Warrior Monk troops will certainly do the work, but I believe that the "honour bonus" is never as evident as with the No Dachi and the Warrior Monks.

I'm sure that there must be a seasonal factor of some sort that will affect the Naginata...come to think of it, they were particularly vulnerable with snow.

[/QUOTE]

Any way man!... Obrigado, jajaja eu soy latinoamericano parceiro eu esteve no Brasil, mais eu sei que o meu portugues nao é tao bom jejeje

cya



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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!"

[Satake]

Quote Originally posted by CeltiberoSkullXIII:
Use no dachis... No dachis are a big trouble for naginatas if used in the way u made with the monks!

[/QUOTE]

Nooo! Dachis get murdered by nags!!

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

no if u use them in good conditions

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!"

[theforce]

Yes BakaGaijin but a good or even someone that is not crap will turn his men and then you will do the same thing!
A high armoured attack compined with some nd to flank is the way to go.


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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[SlackerXS]

How about Thunder Bomber

hmm... something about cavalry... for me, men on horses only work well on picking off archers or gunners from the side...

[BakaGaijin]

force: We're talking about the AI, I think. In which case, simple tactics like that are fine.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Mensageiro]

What I like best about STW (I have yet to get the expansion) is that there seem to be so many ways of dealing with the enemy; but none of them is 100% sure. Great challenge indeed .

But I'm doing fine with Heavy Cavalry. Normally, I had no use for them, but now I guess I'll throw them into battle when the Naginata are causing extra trouble.

[BakaGaijin]

Anything to make use of those pretty horsies! Nice horsey... =D

You might wanna try Nagi Cav. You'll probably lose more than with HC, but they're a lot cheaper, anyway.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[theforce]

Here is a simple tactic BakaGaijin! Use nd as first line and high armoured behind and charge! While adavncing cut your nd line sending half right and half left of the nagis leaving the high armoured to engage. Now get one team of the nd and flank while the others are holding the line with the high armoured. :P

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[BakaGaijin]

A variation on the Zulu "horns of the bull" maneuver? =)

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Some good advice above. Cavalry is an option - as is a balanced force of infantry and ranged attacks. The problem is archers are not effective against Naginata. The key then is to use the Archers as bait. Harrass the Naginata until they come after your. I suggest that you hide the rest of your troops in concealment - at least 2 oe 3. You will find that a few Nagi's will come after your archers - pull them back - and use the concealed infantry to flank that Nagi's. The Nagi's will then turn and combat your flankers - so move quickly and charge the archers into H2H combat. Normally - this would be suicide - however the Nagi will already have their facing "pinned" by the flanker - who now will be facing the front of the nagi formation. That means your archers - with a decent but not extreme H2H rating - are now rearing the Nagi's - and while the Nagi's defensive rating is good - its not good enough to be fighting 2 diametrically opposed units. They will break - and whats even better is that with a bit of forethought, you can have them rout THRU the flanker - insuring alot of rout kills. By doing this, you can whittle down the enemy army enough to then consider a standard flanking maneuver.

The key to getting a few units drawn off is make sure that the AI (or your human opponent) still can see your "main force" and thus is unwilling to have a large force (more than 3 units) drawn off for fear of an attack. This will ensure that the force your archers face will not be overwhelming. The trick is to take them apart - which once you get the trap sprung - expect to see a human opponent send his main army to the rescue - often giving YOU the chance to hit the whole GROUP in the flank! The AI will often fall for the same trick 2 or 3 times, then see it faces a now superior foe and flee.

Either way - its a win.
One note - I have not tried it in WE, but in the original S:TW - naginata could not only take a heavy cav unit - but on level ground I have seen it take 2 heavy cav units down - they both hit the nagi's in the front. The Nagi's were my general - and I had 25 men left after routing the 2HC's.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Zone]

Ah well, you see, you need the expansion, then you can flatten them with a Kensi

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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'

[BakaGaijin]

Mmm... Kensai. I won a tough battle with Kensai once.

I was attacked by Oda and Takeda at the same time(!!). Fortunately, I had a lot of guns. I occupied a hill and waited for Oda's Mad Monks to charge up. They came, routed, and were ripped to shreds by a pursuing Yari Cav unit. Unforunately, Takeda took advantage of the map to set himself up on an opposing hill *on my flank*. Fortunately, I shifted in time to give him second thoughts about a charge. He moved his samurai archers into a valley beneath my guns (stupid, really stupid), then I hit them from the side with another unit of YC just as they broke. Unfortunately for me, the main force stayed up on the hill. Takeda had a lot of Yari and two units of horses (on YC, the other CA), so I couldn't very well charge up at them, and even his flanks were guarded! So, I needed to take him off-balance. Enter Kensai. I flanked the enemy with my Kensai. Just one, mind you! Instantly, the *WHOLE ARMY* turned to fight him! All of his Yari charged down into a valley just below the Kensai (I guess they were going for him, but missed. ). So, Mr. Kensai attacked downhill towards them and occupied all the Yari. Which allowed me to bring up my flanking YC to tackle their cav and hold them down (the whole army routed before they could defeat my one unit of YC (the other was positioned to trap the routers... MWAHAHAHA!), as well as send in my two units of Nodachi. The Kensai got "only" 66 kills, but he *did* win the match for me by triggering Takeda's men to make a foolish attack. Hehehe.

So, yeah. Try using a Kensai against that silly AI.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!