spies

[GoldenKnightX2]

I just wanted to know if anyone else uses spies.

[Skie Mirror Silvanoshei]

Of, course I use spies.

[Mount Suribachi]

Yes, but mainly in a defensive role. Put them in another factions territory and they rarely last more than 2 minutes.

[Makkadam]

I never use spies. They die quick as hell in enemy territory and you might as well use assassins at home.

[Portuguese Rebel]

I don't use spys because they unbalance the game. you can win the game using mainly spys to cause revolts on other faction's provinces. It gets too boring after a while, since you only have to move in after the rebels and the loyal forces slug it out and sweep up the remainings. In certain circunstances you can even almost desroy a faction with a handfull of spys if you can manage to cause a revolt in one or more territorys so that the rebels take over and cut the enemys empire in two slices. Try this when there is low loyalty royal blood general in each slice of the territory. When the king dies, civil war... baaaahh way to boring. The main kick of MTW is the battles, not the board action IMO. Spys deny this.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ May 17 2003,04:29)]I don't use spys because they unbalance the game. you can win the game using mainly spys to cause revolts on other faction's provinces. It gets too boring after a while, since you only have to move in after the rebels and the loyal forces slug it out and sweep up the remainings. In certain circunstances you can even almost desroy a faction with a handfull of spys if you can manage to cause a revolt in one or more territorys so that the rebels take over and cut the enemys empire in two slices. Try this when there is low loyalty royal blood general in each slice of the territory. When the king dies, civil war... baaaahh way to boring. The main kick of MTW is the battles, not the board action IMO. Spys deny this.

Spies imbalance the game? hardly, have you tried to create a revolt (post patch), I flooded a province with 25 spies and it STILL wasn't enough...

Nope spies are best used in your own territory (and for getting rid of troublesome generals), and for revealing vices.

Thats about it.

[Longasc]

Never used them in Medieval and in VI right now.

But well, I was finished usually 1136 and played mostly the Early Age... had more bishops and emissaries and assassins usually.

[Dogmeat]

yup, i use em. It takes ages to start a revolt now anyway, but they still have uses. They do get killed very quickly, ut if you manage to get a high valour one, they last a while.

[Shahed]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 17 2003,04:47)]Spies imbalance the game? hardly, have you tried to create a revolt (post patch), I flooded a province with 25 spies and it STILL wasn't enough...

Maybe thats it... I run the game unpatched (i dislike some of the changes the patch brings).

[The_Emperor]

Thought so, rebellions used to start easily enough when you moved 6 spies into a province...

Now it s a bit more difficult and you always have to make war on your allies (instant excommunication for a few years)

makes it harder.

[Cooperman]

If you want to use spies to cause a rebellion, don't put them all into one province as the AI can move move troops/adjust tax rates in that province to maintain loyalty. Spread the spies out amongst half a dozen provinces and the AI has a much harder time. It takes a lot of spies tho and can take 3 or 4 turns before even one province revolts, also expect to lose at least half a dozen spies a turn so you'll need a lot of provinces turning out spies.

[rory_20_uk]

I use spies defensively or in provinces where they are likely to survive for at least a bit (so mainly rebel provinces then).
I've never bothered with the finding vice feature, as if one of my generals is being naughty, he's just volounteered to be in the front line of the next battle (obviously not as the general), with as few troops as possible. Or if it is a low value unit, I just ship him off to attack an enemy overseas, so that there is no chane of him returning.
Other than that, I am an enthusiastic user of the Inquisition. to kill a decent enemy general requires a high level assasin, and then it is not certain. With an inquisitor, you can have a go each turn. The more you try them, the greater chance that they turn Atheist on you, facilitating the inevitable BBQ. I've yet to fry the Pope, but I hope to one day...

[GoldenKnightX2]

looks like I found a good topic

[GoldenKnightX2]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ May 17 2003,06:29)]They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

I've caused civil wars in enemy factions with them

[vortex]

Spies are great for hurting factions that you don't like, but don't want to get excommunicated by attacking them. In my opinion, they are extremely useful - and you should take advantage of their capabilities.

[The_Emperor]

Anyone think the Border Fort is a bit too good at catching spies... maybe its just me but when I moved a large group of spies into one province, I lost all but 3 of them in on turn (I sent in around 10 or so)

very bad for stealth.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Using spys on defense is useless IMO. If you build border forts in every province you will get the job done (maybe a handfull of good assassins). PLUS the border forts increase loyalty wich is essential in a wining end game.

[HopAlongBunny]

Spies are very useful.

I use them internally first. I like to have one per province. I have no idea if it helps at all On the other hand, the number of revolts I see during a game are close to zero.

Despite what you might hear, they are still effective at causing rebellions. The targets have to be more vulnerable than before the patch, but it still works.

The difference post-patch (I think) is that the AI might actually attempt to defend itself from agents.

[Asmodeus]

I use them a fair bit too. 1 Spy in each of my provinces (just watch what it does to the Loyalty - it's dramatic) - especially newly captured provinces. It also gives you warning of generals plotting to rebel. I also keep 1 assassin in each province as they are a second line of defence against enemy agents and they improve with time so you get a nice high valour Assassin without risking his neck.

I once defeated the Mongols with a single spy, revealed the Khan to be a secret blackmailer and his empire was ripped apart with civil war and revolts.

I dont bother with the spy rush revolts though, it's too damn fiddling moving tons of spys arround the map.

[Sockeye]

Not really used spies very much, any time I try and discover a vice on an enemy general they always find nothing. I know they are probably too low valour to succeed, but I can't really see much point in them.

I tried them last night, I had around ten in one of my provinces, ready to move into a neighbouring province en-masse. The province they were in rebelled (I moved an army out to protect another province), but I held on to it by moving another army into it and defeating the rebels in a pitched battle, only to find a the start of the next turn all my spies were apparently discovered and killed By my own border guards Or maybe the guards changed sides halfway through the year and shopped my spies?

[ShadesWolf]

No never use spies, usually dont get that far in a game to build them...

[A Nerd]

I have found a new appreciation for spies in my latest campaign as the picts. I used to use them for unsuccessful rebellion, ocassional vice discovery, or assassin booby traps. But now, I put them in provinces I conqured a long time ago and they keep the people realatively stable. So yes, I like and use spies.

[Popeye]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ May 17 2003,20:49)]Using spys on defense is useless IMO. If you build border forts in every province you will get the job done (maybe a handfull of good assassins). PLUS the border forts increase loyalty wich is essential in a wining end game.

I used to think the same thing.

Consider two facts:

1. Border forts do not get valor increases.

2. Border forts cannot be moved if needed elsewhere.

I've stopped building border forts. Towers in key areas to see into neighboring provinces, yes, but I don't bother with border forts much. For loyalty, I make sure every province gets a church or mosque, a tavern and brothel (for more assassins/spies) and the buildings that improve both loyalty AND morale of units trained there.

[HindSight2020]

No one has spies or assassins early in the game, so I delay building anything but watchtowers at first. Later, I always build a fort and a border fort. Border Forts are very effective at catching assassins and spies. I can use watchtowers early to get information about neighboring provinces. Sure they don't get an increase in valor, but they are pretty efficient at what I need them for. I haven't ever had a spy, so maybe I'm missing a part of the strategy I would need to be more effective. I don't know. My problem with spies is the amount of investment you need to do to get them. The ability to train Assassins comes earlier. By the time you can even think about spies, the game is pretty far along. I'm too busy building other things and training other units to invest that much into trying to get spies. Besides, if people are dropping 10 spies on a province and losing 7 because of a border fort, there is quite a loss of florin that I can use in other areas of my empire.

[Popeye]

If you use spies to catch enemy agents instead of towers, they gain valor. If you start that early on, then late in the game when you are conducting a seige and see that the castle will never fall without an assault, and they have that big ugly barbican and a large force to boot, you'll be glad you had a couple of 3 + star spies to send in to open the gates for you.

[The_Emperor]

Spies chance for success is very limited in that scenario... but its still fun to do

[vortex]

Quote[/b] (Popeye @ May 19 2003,10:08)]If you use spies to catch enemy agents instead of towers, they gain valor. If you start that early on, then late in the game when you are conducting a seige and see that the castle will never fall without an assault, and they have that big ugly barbican and a large force to boot, you'll be glad you had a couple of 3 + star spies to send in to open the gates for you.

this is what I do, if you get high valour spies, they are better than border forts. They can do so much more - once you have high valour spies, you can use them to open gates easily - and especially for revealing vices on enemy princes and kings

[Doug-Thompson]

Spies serve more purpose in VI because they can show you what units you're up against when deciding to go to battle or not.

Spies or asassins would also help clean up conquered provinces. Suppose your enemy knows he's going to retreat from a province, but packs it full of asassins before he leaves. You walk in, or take it in a fight, unaware of the asassins. These nested asassins did not have to cross an enemy border fort to get there. Your own agents would help catch the asassins.

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 20 2003,14:33)]Spies serve more purpose in VI because they can show you what units you're up against when deciding to go to battle or not.

A border fort does the same thing if the province you're attacking is next to your own.

Cheers