View Poll Results: Border Forts - Too good?

Voters
44. This poll is closed
  • Yes, CA please do something!

    21 47.73%
  • No, leave em as they are!

    23 52.27%
Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: Border Forts

  1. #1
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The United Kingdom of Great Britain
    Posts
    4,354

    Question

    Ok then guys are Border Forts too effective in VI? Your thoughts please (and your Votes)



    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  2. #2
    Member Member some_totalwar_dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Flanders, vlaardingen
    Posts
    705

    Default

    Na there fine this way, but they shouldnt be able to catch every valor5 assassin/spy that passes, maby once in a while.

    but I don't realy bother with agents operating outside my country so it doesn't have to be changed IMO.
    theKyl: so I shoot some_totalwar_dude for hinting at my m8 sinan
    theKyl shoots totalwar_dude for spamming
    Demon of Light shoots some_totalwar_dude.
    Demon of Light shoots some_totalwar_dude for misspelling Chihuahua.

    (image comming soon )

  3. #3
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Leading the formation !
    Posts
    7,918

    Default

    Yes.

    Too effective in catching spies & assasins, increasing the need for special unit hordes. Or is it that special agenst are too ineffective at saving themselves ?



    A Gamecenter with a dedicated Total War fanbase!
    Check out our Facebook!
    Email: shahed@outpost.be


  4. #4
    Member Member Sleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Yep I lose too many spies abroad, saying that at home my generals can sleep all cosy in bed safely hidden by the ever vigilent eye of the Watch Tower.

  5. #5
    Member Member Losfalos's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Alfengaard
    Posts
    101

    Default

    the thing i hate is losing track of assassins who bravely go after their target deep into enemy territory without my express instructions - then they run into watchtower and suddenly they die ...
    and these are 4 / 5 star + guys sad huh

    im not certain if it should be changed though. i try to keep track of all my key assassins to ensure they operate on safe ground.

    i suspect some princesses are really counter-assassins in disguise though... probably true too.

  6. #6
    Member Member vortex's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    The Computer
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Losfalos @ May 19 2003,08:00)]the thing i hate is losing track of assassins who bravely go after their target deep into enemy territory without my express instructions - then they run into watchtower and suddenly they die ...
    and these are 4 / 5 star + guys sad huh
    Yeah, I agree. Your high valour assassins etc should not die every time - border forts need to be made less effective.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Demon of Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Diego, California, United States of America, North America, Western Hemisphere, Terra, Sol Planetary System, Milky Way Galaxy
    Posts
    2,291

    Default

    High valor assasins do not always die at the hands of border forts. Once, I had Guy of Gisbourne chasing Gregorio d'Medici (4 star Inquisitor) all throughout the map. A good many locations had border forts. Guy evaded these with ease. In fact, his eventual failure to kill Gregorio can in no way be attributed to border forts. Turns out that Gregorio was just faster than Guy...

    P.S: That inquisitor later killed a 4 star general and a 6 acumen governor.
    The surest way to lose the respect of one's peers is to take a stand on principle...alone.

  8. #8
    Member Member MalibuMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    265

    Default

    do you get special character strategic agents like you do hero generals? I've had an amazing assassin called Guy of Gisbourne as well - does he just pop up after a set year like the heroes?

    and yeah, border forts are definitely overpowered - it is both unrealistic and, more importantly, makes the game less fun.

  9. #9
    The Lord of Chaos Member ChaosLord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Posts
    388

    Default

    Yes, they do seem too effective. But if we made them less effective how would the AI react? They don't choose targets that well right now, and this would give us even more free reign to slaughter their generals and the like.
    "Every good communist should know political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao tse-Tung

  10. #10
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Staffordshire, England
    Posts
    3,934

    Default

    This is something I have not given much thought to.

    I dont really build them, thus get alot of generals killed. But I do find a lose alot of Assassins when I get round to building them.
    ShadesWolf
    The Original HHHHHOWLLLLLLLLLLLLER

    Im a Wolves fan, get me out of here......


  11. #11
    Member Member Elwe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    285

    Default

    ... and then, after CA change it so that the Border Forts aren't so effective, the complaints start to roll in about just how effective the AI's assassins/spies are in killing that general you just managed to get to 5 stars and disrupting the loyalty of your backwater provinces ...

    Seems some people see only the 'problems', not the advantages. The AI uses these agents en masse. Do you really want border forts reduced in effectiveness..?

    I remember once my border fort captured 5 enemy assassins in a single turn... I would not have liked them to have made it through... the governor of that particular province was highly loyal, extremely high acumen (9 quills), not even a single star and only 1 valour... I could have said goodnight to him if even a level 1 assassin got to him

    In case you hadn't guessed, my vote was Leave them how they are now.

    Cheers
    -- Elwe --
    I wish for a multiplayer campaign in Rome: Total War

  12. #12

    Post

    Well, I voted yes because I think the question was aimed at the original campaign after the VI install, and anyone who's started a game there would have to agree that border forts now drastically reduce any undercover pieces that try to enter.
    It's much different from v1.1.
    Ignoranti, quem portum petat, nullus suus ventus est. -Seneca, Epistulae Morales, VIII, 71, 3

  13. #13
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The United Kingdom of Great Britain
    Posts
    4,354

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ May 20 2003,01:49)]Well, I voted yes because I think the question was aimed at the original campaign after the VI install, and anyone who's started a game there would have to agree that border forts now drastically reduce any undercover pieces that try to enter.
    It's much different from v1.1.
    That is what this is about... The VI Main Campaign, not the previous versions.
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  14. #14
    Member Member Lord Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Must be a slow news day if we are complaining about border forts
    The state which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools – Thucydides

  15. #15
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    2,126

    Default

    not quite, check the small wargamer preview for RTW ...


    but indeed, BF are too good, I even discussed this in a thread once ...


  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Demon of Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Diego, California, United States of America, North America, Western Hemisphere, Terra, Sol Planetary System, Milky Way Galaxy
    Posts
    2,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ May 19 2003,13:08)]do you get special character strategic agents like you do hero generals? I've had an amazing assassin called Guy of Gisbourne as well - does he just pop up after a set year like the heroes?

    and yeah, border forts are definitely overpowered - it is both unrealistic and, more importantly, makes the game less fun.
    yes, Guy of Gisbourne is a hero. He was an associate of the Sheriff of Nottingham.
    The surest way to lose the respect of one's peers is to take a stand on principle...alone.

  17. #17
    Member Member MalibuMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    265

    Default

    yeah i know who he was in real history - watching Maid Marian and her Merry Men as a child has to be good for something eh?

  18. #18
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    2,126

    Default

    lol


  19. #19
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    752

    Default

    What I would like to se in VI and MTW original is the raiding parties that cross the border ass spesial units and retreat in one move. In case of border forts you would have a better chance to intercept these raiders

    That was the function of the border forts and that was the way it was in those days

  20. #20

    Default

    They're so cheap and easy to build too. Plus they give something like +30 happiness on top of catching any spy/assasin who comes near. If they were 1000 florins and 4 turns, I'd be happier with them.
    "I request permanent reassignment to the Gallic frontier. Nay, I demand reassignment. Perhaps it is improper to say so, but I refuse to fight against the Greeks or Macedonians any more. Give my command to another, for I cannot, I will not, lead an army into battle against a civilized nation so long as the Gauls survive. I am not the young man I once was, but I swear before Jupiter Optimus Maximus that I shall see a world without Gauls before I take my final breath."

    Senator Augustus Verginius

  21. #21
    The Breath of God Member Divine Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Guarding the Shores of Japan
    Posts
    1,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ May 21 2003,12:54)]yeah i know who he was in real history - watching Maid Marian and her Merry Men as a child has to be good for something eh?
    That program was the best lol
    "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War




  22. #22

    Default

    I think it is not (only) the watch towers.

    It is the whole system how diplomacy and espionage/assassinations work that needs an overhaul.

  23. #23

    Lightbulb

    I definitely think they are way too powerful. I wish the operation of the strat agents/border forts/etc. were a little more developed. I have a number of comments about this topic in general.

    - nothing worse than having your champion assassin mindlessly follow a target and get killed needlessly. There could be a simple check box on the r-click display of the agent which says stop pursuing at friendly borders which you could check or not depending on the valor of the assassin.

    - i think there should be a wholly developed tech-tree of border control buildings similar to troop buildings which aid in effectiveness similar to the following: L1 - helps loyalty of local pop, L2a - helps see a FEW enemy units in neighoring province, L2b - helps effectiveness in catching enemy agents, L3a - helps see a few more enemy units, L3b - beefed up L2b, etc. (you can only choose to pursue the a or b branch) and so on.

    - They should take longer and be more expensive to build too, to make you really think about whether or not to build them. Its just way too automatic to ALWAYS build border forts in every single province you plan on occupying. You'd be a fool not to. I like how in VI you have to really commit to building farming or not in a province [the whole 16 turns and lots of money], it adds a lot to the strategy. Something similar in MTW would be cool for border forts. It would be cool to decide whether you wish to build an empire which is immune to agents, loyal, or good at scouting the enemy, but dammit make us choose one of the 3 not get all 3 for the low cost of $199.99 florins payable in 1 monthly installment.

    - Assassins and spies could be fleshed out with a few ratings such as the generals' Loy-Dre-Com-Acu. Perhaps like MOO3 (although in no way am I saying that MTW become more like MOO3) where they have Cloak (ability to infiltrate opponent) and Dagger (ability to commit an act of espionage) stats. I think there is great but unexploited potential in the stategic agents portion of this game. I'm sure we can come up with ideas on fleshing out Princesses (desirability, potential for espionage) and Bishops/Imams/Priests (charisma, ruthlessness) would make sense as well and make it more fun to use these and more of a thinking man's decision on what to do with certain units. The whole V&V thing is great in my opinion it can be expanded to apply to strat agents too.

  24. #24

    Default

    Something else to remember is its watch towerS, border fortS ie plural, a string of towers and forts along your frontier, which is why their low cost and build time is unrealistic AND unbalanced.
    "I request permanent reassignment to the Gallic frontier. Nay, I demand reassignment. Perhaps it is improper to say so, but I refuse to fight against the Greeks or Macedonians any more. Give my command to another, for I cannot, I will not, lead an army into battle against a civilized nation so long as the Gauls survive. I am not the young man I once was, but I swear before Jupiter Optimus Maximus that I shall see a world without Gauls before I take my final breath."

    Senator Augustus Verginius

  25. #25
    Member Member Znake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Stockholm/Sweden
    Posts
    77

    Thumbs down

    I agree..they are too effective against spies and assasins

  26. #26

    Default

    Perhaps should they cost maintenance- ok, that would be a problem because no other structures cost upkeep.

    4 Turns and 800 Gold for Border Forts, how about that? And at least a keep in that province e.g. ^^

  27. #27
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Searching for the ORG's lost honor
    Posts
    4,657

    Default

    They are probably too effective. When I conquer provinces the first thing I do is build watchtowers/forts. It serves several purposes simultaneously: 1. Improves loyalty in the new acquisition (freeing up troops or providing more income.) 2. Prevents assassins from killing off valuable generals and heirs. 3. Prevents spies from creating/discovering nasty hidden vices on heirs, generals, and governors (makes a difference in income because of acumen, loyalty because of embarassment, battle because of some command reducing vices.) 4. Allows me to see into the new borders.

    I like the idea of a tree with various kinds of border fort functions. Also agree with having more detailed instructions for assassins such as don't enter territories with foreign border forts
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO