Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: daimyo in WE castle assault

  1. #1
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    I believe the majority of the community have noticed the difference of archers' effectiveness in castle assault between orginal STW and WE. With limited ammo (even time limits), now it becomes very possible to eliminate the entire castle defense by archers only.

    But the enemy archers are always a big problem.

    In my own experience, the daimyo and his bodyguard are excellent arrow absorbers. After the enemy archers depleted their arrows, our own archers, BN, or gunmen can march to their optimal shooting positions. It seems that the daimyo is safest to stand just on the slope leading to the castle wall. The enemy archers have difficulty shooting straight through the walls.

    Here are two screen shots demostrating the "effectiveness" of the daimyo in this particular job:

    1. In light rain, the enemy fire could not damage the daimyo but killed some of their own guys standing in front of the archers.



    2. While the daimyo walks to the back of the castle, the enemy had extreme difficulty shooting backwards - ending killing 97 of themselves!



    [This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 11-01-2001).]

  2. #2
    Member Member SlackerXS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    L.A. USA
    Posts
    65

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Maltz:
    I believe the majority of the community have noticed the difference of archers' effectiveness in castle assault between orginal STW and WE. With limited ammo (even time limits), now it becomes very possible to eliminate the entire castle defense by archers only.

    But the enemy archers are always a big problem.

    In my own experience, the daimyo and his bodyguard are excellent arrow absorbers. After the enemy archers depleted their arrows, our own archers, BN, or gunmen can march to their optimal shooting positions. It seems that the daimyo is safest to stand just on the slope leading to the castle wall. The enemy archers have difficulty shooting straight through the walls.

    Here are two screen shots demostrating the "effectiveness" of the daimyo in this particular job:

    1. In light rain, the enemy fire could not damage the daimyo but killed some of their own guys standing in front of the archers.

    2. While the daimyo walks to the back of the castle, the enemy had extreme difficulty shooting backwards - ending killing 97 of themselves!

    [This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 11-01-2001).]
    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the tips

    hmm... I wonder if any other types of cav will work as well...?

    ------------------
    SlackER ~ Extreme

    [This message has been edited by SlackerXS (edited 11-01-2001).]
    SlackER ~ Extreme

  3. #3
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,670

    Default

    Thats just cheesy.

    Winning against the AIs 'intelligence' is one thing but using the constraints of computer modeling is a bit rich.

    The value of victory and your honour is only equal to the how hard your enemy is. This way your enemy has no value.

    Whats the point of playing a game like this full of frantic combat, troops charging, routing, rallying only to reduce yourself to using poorly modeled castles mechanics to win?!!

    You might as well just play the entire SP campaign on easy.

    ------------------
    Victory first, Battle last.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  4. #4
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Papewaio:
    Thats just cheesy.
    [/QUOTE]

    I respect your perspective. However, my perspective is to treat a game as a game - there is no such thing as "honor" in a game. The goal of playing is to enjoy. Some people think discovering AI thinking faults to be fun, while some do not.

  5. #5
    Pleasing the Fates Senior Member A Nerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Living in the past
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    I think your tactics are brilliant...I never attack a castle when it is so fully garrisoned...especially with archers!
    Silence is beautiful

  6. #6
    Member Member Gothmog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Mordor, USA
    Posts
    690

    Default

    One thing I find interesting is that: I never thought of placing my bait to the BACK of the castle. It's really amusing.

    Pain is weakness leaving the body.

  7. #7
    Member Member BakaGaijin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,739

    Default

    RB: It was in the name of science!

    ------------------
    Disappear into the Darkness!!
    "If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

    "Hey, why are the enemy throwing their cookware at us?" *KABOOM* -- Thunderbomber sneak attack!

  8. #8
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,670

    Default

    Life is a game.

    Hence there is Honour in a game.

    My perspective is not just the honour... I like a challenge. Its like playing sports, I get no thrill at beating people who can't challenge me... even I can win at basketball against a blind man.

    I don't see the point in playing a !game! and then exploit poorly modeled mechanics... so you spend a couple of hours to win by cheating against a couple of animated sprites?

    What is the point in that?

    "Wow I just bet a couple of pixels by outsmarting them"

    BTW Science has ethics!

    ------------------
    Victory first, Battle last.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  9. #9
    Member Member BakaGaijin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,739

    Default

    Honestly, there's no need to get so self-righteous about this. We're talking about a game here. Some people like to test the limits and see what's going on behind the pretty pictures. They like the challenge of figuring out the exact limitations of the system. It's a very intellectual process, and it's fun, if you're that type of person.

    And besides, he's doing all these nasty things against the AI. It's not as if he's exploiting the Red Zone to defeat a human player in a comp game, or anything.

    ------------------
    Disappear into the Darkness!!
    "If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

    "Hey, why are the enemy throwing their cookware at us?" *KABOOM* -- Thunderbomber sneak attack!

  10. #10
    Member Member radan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Phil
    Posts
    239

    Default

    Papewaio, I respect your views but don't expect other people to agree with them

    I, personally, like to find tricks in a game such as that given by Maltz, but that does not mean I consider it cheating and I even enjoy doing it. And, it does not also mean I am a bad player either cause I can win in the expert mode even without save/reload.

    Maltz, I have never discovered your trick about the Daimyo in the back so I will be trying it the next time I attack a castle containing missile units. Firing backwards is little odd though
    --RADAN--
    (The SAMURAI HERO Ashigaru)
    A member of CLAN..what no CLAN??

  11. #11
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    OKRAHOMER
    Posts
    7,424

    Default



    When I first got my Pac-Man game on the old Atari I played with honor and strength, even though all the other kids on the block exploited a so-called "ghost 3 bug" during mission 10 and higher.

    I tried to explain to them the ethical implications of what they were doing and how Pac-Man really imitated life but they kept telling me it was "just a game." They were fools who wasted their time by dishonoring the sacred Pac-Man universe.

    Then, when Jungle Hunt game out they did it all over again with the "Croc Pit Bug", even though I posted on all the message boards that they were Dirty Gamers.

    Thank you for reading my shallow attempt at Sarcasm.

    *hugs*
    Major Dump

    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

  12. #12
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    Please let me explain that there is a difference between the case of my post and the packman story described by Robert.

    Finding a bug is different from abusing a bug. To use a bug to laugh at AI is different from to use a bug to pretend to be skilled in others' eyes.

    I'm not say'n here "Hey! I am so good and I can beat expert AI easily blah blah". If you looked at my published war stories (which gave me the icon), I also try my best to play the plain way. I don't save and load. I don't hit Esc when I lose a battle.

    Now WE comes out, and there are even more interesting features and bugs. I feel it is good to share with everyone - very simple. I made the screenshots, uploaded them on the website, so everyone can see what I wish to present.

    To avoid confusion, I should rephrase my definition of "honor". Honor only exists when human interact with others, or with the past self. In other words, when someone plays a single STW player campaign at home - not showing off, not comparing the results, not setting a record, not even letting others know... and just for fun... ---

    Yeah! F*** Honor! Do whatever you like

    [This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 11-06-2001).]

  13. #13
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    OKRAHOMER
    Posts
    7,424

    Default

    Actually Maltz, my post wasnt meant to poke fun at your tactics but rather the people who act like youre desecrating a holy shrine when you use those tactics. The "bugs" i mentioned on my old Atari games never existed, and niether did the internet back then. I'm with you, matey, its only a game and part of the fun is trying to break it.
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

  14. #14
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,670

    Default

    Arrggh!
    I'm not saying that finding bugs and strange mechanics isn't fun.

    What I was [quite rudely] saying; Once found what is the point of exploiting those in a campaign?
    [apologies for the use of sarcasm in my original comments it happens when you live in a penal colony]

    Maltz you make an excellent playtester. I just wish the makers of shogun would actually produce more fixes based on what you and others here do.

    ------------------
    Victory first, Battle last.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  15. #15
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    It is very nice to hear that we all agreed with each other now. I appreciate your understanding.

    I was going to talk about archers' "shooting-in positions", and I guess I can continue here. Same as before, you might have known this for a long time.

    For small castle: directly shoot from the gate, damage all units well.

    For large+ castles: A very simple principle. Please see the diagram below (F = front, L = left,.. etc.)



    A simple rule of thumb is to shoot them from the side that is around 45 degree to their right/left hand side BACK, trying to avoid the tower. (Tower stops all arrows) The distance is reachable by the archers and you will be surprised how many arrows could pass the castle wall and kill the enemy due to their projectile path. This works against enemy's guns in the castle, too (archers have a longer range).

    It is possible to destroy a whole group of monks by a group of archers. However, for troops with heavier armor or the weather is raining, the power of archers outside the castle is very weak anyways.

    Of course, you can also shoot at front if there is a brave enemy unit blocking the gate - everybody knows how. They will be "replaced" as long as their numbers got thinned down. The AI tends to hold their projectile units away from the gate, though.

    ---

    one more thing. Before assaulting the castle, you might want to check (if possible) the number of units trapped in. If the numbers exceeds the maximal capacity, when you assault there will be some units left out of the castle. These units, although supposed to be defensive, will always aggressively come to you Moreoever, even if they were defeated and routed into the castle, they will come out assault you again! So you can set up your defense and lure them into the trap - block their way of return and have a lot of easy kills.

    [This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 11-07-2001).]

  16. #16
    Member Member TakeshidaSo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    FortWorth, Texas,U.S.A.
    Posts
    634

    Default

    I dont think saying, "That's just cheesy" is being 'quite rude'. It agrees with your opinion that the value of this type of victory is very little. It's the very equal of saving, and replaying.

    Your point that this is like a cheat is accurate. The fact that the AI is a horrible opponent makes this type of behavior acceptable. The AI is so stupid it can never win anyway, you might as well have fun with beating up on it.

    I think other comments, like you're being self-righteous, or expecting people to agree with you, are also off the mark. There was no condemnation, or outrage, that I could detect.

    When you used the word Honor I think it was referring to your opinion that the game lacks integrity, not that the person who ignores this has a lack of it. However, I had to laugh, when someone described these tactics as brilliant.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO