Adding completely new factions in VI

[Wellington]

Ok,

Another "where the hell are we" type post. Simply because no-one appears to be getting anywhere on the issue of VI "new factions".

Therefore, the first question should be -

"Has anyone created a COMPLETELY NEW FACTION, with all that that entails, for the MTW/VI expansion?"

That means I'm NOT interested in how the theory works (or does'nt), and I'm NOT interested in what people have attempted and failed to produce (regardless of how close they think they have got).

This is a post in the same vein as the stickied post "Changing the MTW Campaign map ...", and as such I'm interested in real information/progress/success as opposed to thoughts/ideas/bullshit.

If any modder has purchased VI, principally for the inherent potential offered, but is still struggling with the VI processing/engine ...

... then they are in the same boat as I

After 3 weeks I still find that the supposed potential offered by VI is almost impossible to realise.

Therefore - "Has anyone created a new faction (for example Aztecs or Indians or Mexicans or Nigerians ....) for the MTW/VI expansion that -

a) provides a completely new faction for MTW/VI, and is visable as a new faction
b) provides provinces for this new faction (inherently implying that some other factions must lose provinces accordingly)
c) provides all of the new shield/icon files for such a new faction (even if these are only copied from other existing factions)
d) does NOT crash to desktop after half a dozen (or less)turns

In other words - has ANYONE yet managed to utilise the "implicit potential" of the MTW/VI system, and has successfully managed to create a new faction within the VI system?

Yes or no No bullshit please

I think the answer is a BIG, BIG, NO

Welly

[Grell]

NO. I am not exactly sure what "Bullshit" you are refering to but I havent seen you offer much constructive comment or discussion to the others out there who are also trying very hard to add in new factions.

[A_B]

GilJaysmith, the CA programmer, said he’d take a look at this issue this week. He said that last Friday. It is only Monday.

To be more positive; has anyone determined if the battle CTD is because of the shield icons? If it is, I’d suggest making all of the ‘new’ factions be either Pagan or Muslim – with the wood or hide covered shields, and leave the originals as the various Christian factions with their gaudy painted shields.

I’d also add that the work of the modders easily doubles, and often triples or quadruples the value of the original game purchase. MedMod for Civ CTP was like getting a new game for free. Likewise, MedMod for MTW. The LOTR mod for MTW will also be like getting a brand new game for free.

So naturally, being the recipient of all this additional gaming at no cost, I make an effort to let the modders know I appreciate their work. I also appreciate CA providing a programmer to work on the problem. You think they should do that as a standard practice of their business? Forget it. Modders and mod players are too small a segment of the business to worry about. My guess is that the CA people that respond to modders requests for features or assistance are doing it because they think it is a cool thing to do – because the are into the game. Not because they get paid any more, or make any more sales. In fact, I’d wager their manager types tell them not to bother. Helping the modders means more late nights of work for them. The least we can do is let them know, and the modders know, that we appreciate it.

[Lord Krazy]

Wellington I think the bullshit bit of the
request is not needed.
I should be the arbitor of what falls under that
category.


I have not had the chance to add a faction
to the mtw bit yet as I'v been away
and occupied with other matters.

I will have some time over the next week and shall endevour
to see what the problem is.I have a lot of files from other people that I need to check and if they are ok
I won't have to do so much to come to a conclusion.

If you want to send me your files
for the startpos an so on it might help
me also.

Thanks
Regards
LK

[Portuguese Rebel]

I can relate to Well in this one... I've been in all the threads to see if it is possible to add a new faction and all i get is this almost kind of thing (CTDs, battle crashes, and so on...). Has anyone been able to do it? Or is this just another "it can be done, no problem" sort of thing the CA guys are giving us like they did in MTW. Up until now this is starting to look like merchandise strategy. If it was that "easy", wouldn't they add the factions themselves? Dam, no unique units required, just some shabby shields and flags and i could have my country were it should be... Instead, there is those good for nothing aragonese...

[Wellington]

NO. I am not exactly sure what "Bullshit" you are refering to but I havent seen you offer much constructive comment or discussion to the others out there who are also trying very hard to add in new factions.

Wellington I think the bullshit bit of the
request is not needed.
I should be the arbitor of what falls under that
category.


Grell/LK,

Quite correct

My apologies. Please consider the use of the word "bullshit" to really mean "unsubstantiated and therefore unconstructive opinions". You will, of course, realise that other problematical issues in MTW have only really been resolved when someone takes the bull by the horns and gives it a damn good shaking.

When the "Campaign map" problems had been dragging on for 6 months and no-one had made any substantial progress we created a small group and resolved such issues (ok, I fully understand that many others still failed to understand what we did - but that's another issue). However, if you read the 2 stickied threads you will quickly realise that whilst a lot of progress was made there were also a lot of problems caused by virtue of the fact that some individuals offered "factual information" that was really "Bullshit" - and thus sent some people, er ... me, down blind alleys that only served to waste time and effort (read the threads and posts within).

Basically, I'd like to see the potential of VI cracked. Unfortuantely, I'm not too optomistic.

I'm sure VI has a lot of potential, but such potential can only be realised by clear thought and consistent effort. Therefore - my "No Bullshit" comment.

Grell - I havent seen you offer much constructive comment or discussion

I offer something when I know what I'm talking about, and when I can provide such offerings. Whether or not I am able to provide such (3ddownloads - I still have a problem), and whether or not other people have the ability to comprehend what is being offered ... well those are different issues.

At present, after reading the various threads pertaining to VI and having spent 6 weeks examining the new inherent structures, I'll state 4 things -

- VI offers massive potential BUT ONLY IN THEORY
- many people have attempted to realise this potential, but always unsuccessfully (we have no mod's as yet that cater for VI)
- I would like to crack this problem, but it can't be cracked via "bullshit" or "unsubstantiated opinions" - only by facts
- if CA themselves can't offer examples of how to correctly utilise the potential of VI, the same potential that was advertised, and even hyped and eagerly awaited by many modders in the run up to the VI release - then what chance have we modders

VI was eagerly awaited. Many CA staff spent a lot of time praising the virtues of VI, to both gamers amd modders alike, within many threads at "The Org". In all fairness ECS DID inform us that previous software/utilities for MTW would be invalid in VI.

Fine.

ECS and CA. Please advise us exactly how we {modders) can utilise the presumed potential of VI. Any examples of how to eliminate/obviate existing factions and create entirely new factions (with all of the necessary reqirements for such a new faction) would be most appreciated.

Having spent 6 unsuccessful weeks attempting such a fruitless chore, I'd really like to see how the CA people do it. Ok, maybe I'm stupid If so, please assist a stupid modder in the areas that you, CA, assured me where gob-smacking enough for me to want to purchase VI - as a modder.

Whilst I'll still keep trying to crack all of the problems inherent in modding VI (which, after all, CA told us was the next best thing to sliced bread for MTW modders) until CA prove the hype of the last few months ...

... I'll hold my breath

Welly

[Grell]

I am still eagerly awaiting a reply from Giljaysmith, who I believe was taking a look at my mod in an effort to work out why (although coming very close and experiencing no campaign map problems) most battles will cause the game to crash. I have to admit, like Welly I have serious doubts that this can be overcome. However, I would love to be proven wrong

[Wellington]

Quote[/b] (Grell @ June 05 2003,00:12)]I am still eagerly awaiting a reply from Giljaysmith, who I believe was taking a look at my mod in an effort to work out why (although coming very close and experiencing no campaign map problems) most battles will cause the game to crash. I have to admit, like Welly I have serious doubts that this can be overcome. However, I would love to be proven wrong

Grell,

I don't know what your mod is, or what it consists of. If your mod is based on changing the various new parameters in a "startpos" file then you WILL have a LOT of grief.

There are 2 reasons for this -

1) the inter-relations between parameters in a "startpos" file havew changed considerably
2) the inter-relations between SOME parameters in a "startpos" file and other folders/files within VI is now far more critical

The problem, IMHO, is that - you have to ensure that everything is correct (ALL changes) before anything shows up as usable within VI. Obviously, this is a nightmare for people who are involved in the IT industry and have to struggle with the CA-hyped-VI. No error messages, no warnings, no information offered. It just isn't what true IT professionals expect.

Ok, you sense I'm pretty pissed off with this True

However, having spent 6 weeks at this Bullshit (whoops - er ... 'probematical area&#39 if you have a startpos file that you think has errors within - then E-Mail it to me (alan.tipping@wxs.nl). I've been looking at VI startpos files for 6 weeks now (mainly for LMM) so maybe I can see some obvious errors - well, errors {b]in theory[/b] - 'cause I still can't get a 'startpos' file working myself ...

... regardless of CA's VI hype.

Welly

[Grell]

OK I take back what I said earlier about constructive, comment, etc (just read through the LukMap thread). campmap/startpos.txt files arent the problem for me, I have entered in the new factions without a problem (FN_FREE21, etc) the only problem I have, is when these new factions are involved in a battle which 80% of the time causes a crash during the battle load screen (autocalc works OK but of course eliminates a vital part of this great game).

There is no problem with the startpos as far as I can see (which is not to say that it isnt a nightmare to edit).

[Wellington]

Quote[/b] (A_B @ June 02 2003,21:06)]

Hi A_B,

Just a few thoughts.

I’d also add that the work of the modders easily doubles, and often triples or quadruples the value of the original game purchase.

It most certainly does.


I also appreciate CA providing a programmer to work on the problem.


The information and effort the ECS (in particular) has provided has been outstanding. I was'nt initially sure if this was as a result either of the criticism directed at CA in terms of supporting modders (several months ago) or a requirement as a result of the VI marketing campaign.

However, ECS has certainly provided a lot of information - regardless of whether such infoirmation ios realiable or indeed been utilised in the same way by CA as the manner in which it is provided to this modding group.

Anyone remember Target from CA? A long timne ago - but that guy was really helpful. ECS appears to be moulded in the same ilk, or is just marketing? I really don't know

You think they should do that as a standard practice of their business? Forget it. Modders and mod players are too small a segment of the business to worry about.

Rubbish. The RPG games "Balders Gate I/II" and "Icewind Dale" were specifically designed for modding. What a wise policy

The sales of these games increased significantly after the first new mods started to appear (checkout www.TeamBG.com). Good marketing strategy.

Moreso, we were given a lot of information/assistance/guidence by the company. They realised that ALL games have a limited lifespan and that modders could effectively increase such a lifespan, both in terms of the modders hobby and in terms of new people introduced to it. New sales from 2 continual quarters.

Some marketing people recognised that game sales are very like record sales. Continual revenues - providing you do it right. Continual record revenues depend on a new and fresh market that enjoys the product. It''s no different with PC games that are produced in a manner that allows enthusiasts (modders) to provide a fresh skin to an old product. The revenues will still continue to flow - providing there is a feasiable core group that wish to continually provide suich new skins - and providing the product allows such new directions.


My guess is that the CA people that respond to modders requests for features or assistance are doing it because they think it is a cool thing to do – because the are into the game. Not because they get paid any more, or make any more sales. In fact, I’d wager their manager types tell them not to bother.

Maybe they do. The question is ...

... is that the correct policy?

Welly

[Rosacrux]

Regarding Welly's points about modability of a game and the impact of it as a marketing strategy, I would like to point out the success (in terms of sales) of a rather mediocre game like Neverwinter Nights.

The game itself was a dissapointment for me (being an avid BG fan and such) but the extended modability features made it up to me and I have played it extensively for a few months because new modules were introduced every now and then.

Without the modability, this game would've selled very little, due to bad mouthing it received from day one of it's release.

So, please, we need a more moddable TW, not like the bitch that is MTW and VI in terms of modability, but something with integrated modding features. That would be a good policy by CA-Activision and I am willing to bet a healthy sum of money that it would be profitable too.

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] ]many people have attempted to realise this potential, but always unsuccessfully (we have no mod's as yet that cater for VI)

Not true I would like to clarify the problem seems to lie in the Early,High,Late eras as myself and Lord Krazy have succesfully added new entirely working factions to the Viking era if you follow the thread LK even released his version of the Mod called 4 Kings his was more complete then my attempt I added only 1 faction and copied existing shields etc.(devoting my time to Nap Mod right now) so while I agree in part with Wellington that VI seems to have promised more than it delivered, it just gives us a new and diffrent platform from which to do our Modding and aside from adding "New" factions it does offer flexibility in other areas not realized in V1.1 . So maybe a more defintive core group could assemble and address specific problems related to adding new factions to VI, and CA should offer more support in doing the same. In fact in another Thread GilJaySmith had suggested that they are thinking of putting together a modders guide, I dont know where that stands right now but it was brought up, That would be a welcome addition.

[Wellington]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 05 2003,05:16)]Regarding Welly's points about modability of a game and the impact of it as a marketing strategy, I would like to point out the success (in terms of sales) of a rather mediocre game like Neverwinter Nights.

The game itself was a dissapointment for me (being an avid BG fan and such) but the extended modability features made it up to me and I have played it extensively for a few months because new modules were introduced every now and then.

Without the modability, this game would've selled very little, due to bad mouthing it received from day one of it's release.

So, please, we need a more moddable TW, not like the bitch that is MTW and VI in terms of modability, but something with integrated modding features. That would be a good policy by CA-Activision and I am willing to bet a healthy sum of money that it would be profitable too.

Good points.

I particularly like your observation regarding NN. Very true Being an avid RPG fan I was also dissapointed with this offering, BUT it's adherence to the basic BG-series engine priciples (which is one of the most moddible engines in gaming today - and was designed as such) was it's saving grace.

Modders will mod, and by doing so can take products into an entirely new direction. Such new/different directions can only help extend the lifespan of any product that has been produced with an "open moddibility" mentality.

[Wellington]

Quote[/b] (Lord Of Storms @ June 05 2003,08:29)]

Quote[/b] ]many people have attempted to realise this potential, but always unsuccessfully (we have no mod's as yet that cater for VI)

Not true I would like to clarify the problem seems to lie in the Early,High,Late eras as myself and Lord Krazy have succesfully added new entirely working factions to the Viking era if you follow the thread LK even released his version of the Mod called 4 Kings his was more complete then my attempt I added only 1 faction and copied existing shields etc.(devoting my time to Nap Mod right now) so while I agree in part with Wellington that VI seems to have promised more than it delivered, it just gives us a new and diffrent platform from which to do our Modding and aside from adding "New" factions it does offer flexibility in other areas not realized in V1.1 . So maybe a more defintive core group could assemble and address specific problems related to adding new factions to VI, and CA should offer more support in doing the same. In fact in another Thread GilJaySmith had suggested that they are thinking of putting together a modders guide, I dont know where that stands right now but it was brought up, That would be a welcome addition.

This sound good LoS

The major difficulties I've experienced in creating new factions for VI are the different problems inherent in adding new factions for the "VI game" as opposed to the "MTW game". Seems like you guys have eperience dthe same problems.

I can't download your/LK's stuff regarding the "VI game" but if someone can E-mail this stuff to me I'd be most appreciative and will check it all out.

Having a dedicated group of a few individuals, who both understand the original MTW considerations and are struggling with the VI stuff, is we can glean information from each other - providing we are all attempting the same thing.

Therefore, in terms of attempting to crack the VI/MTW problems, it would be preferable if we have a small subgroup that understands this area and we all agree on an single, simple, clearly defined objective that we can all work towards (and hence feed off each other). For example, say our objective is the following -

"To add a new faction called 'Chinese' into the VI expansions Early.txt game. This faction will occupy provinces a/b/c/d - therefore existing factions that occupy these a/b/c/d provinces will have to be 'removed'. The 'Chinese' faction will have naming conventions to be called w/x/y/x" ... and so on.

Once we have such a directive that clearly defines EXACTLY what we are trying to do (and hence everyone involved has the same instructions/directive) then we can begin to make progress towards such a consistant goal.

One problem is that producing a list of "what to change" is not good enough. Such a group would also have to create a simple program that performs all the change requirements, based on a file of parameters, for creating such a new faction (and I wont be doing this as I have too many other issues I'm involved with.

Therefore, we need -

- a small core group who know what they doing
- a common directive, but relatively simple, for all members of the group to strive towards
- a programmer who can provide the code that automates such a process (based, perhaps, on a parameter file)

Without such a consistent and managed effort I think this area will remain a "... VI sounded great, but it only created uncircumventable problems so let's all just await RTW and pray it delivers hope for modders ..."

Therefore ...

... who is willing to attempt to crack this nut?

Welly

[GreasePaintMonkeyBrains]

ill try and work on this poblem. im not a programmer but i have considerable knowledge about modding mtw.

reagrds
GPMB

[Wellington]

Quote[/b] (GreasePaintMonkeyBrains @ June 06 2003,14:49)]ill try and work on this poblem. im not a programmer but i have considerable knowledge about modding mtw.

reagrds
GPMB

Great Many thanks for the offer. There are so many people who would like this VI/New factions resolved in an easy manner.

Let's generate some interest, form a small group, and have a few people dedicated to cracking this problem.

If we can elicit commitment from suitable people (and by suitable I refer back to my original, if somewhat obnoxious, "no Bullshit" comment) we can resolve this issue (well, in theory ... thats what CA say&#33

Any others?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I may not be good with bifs and such, but I like to think of myself as fairly decent where adding factions is concerned. I seem to be having the same problems as Grell. I added the Danes to the VI and they worked fine, so adding factions to the main game and the CTD in battle seems to show it obviously has something to do with the proper game. As to what, I'm stumped but am still looking. I'm currenty working on a Dark Ages mod (800 to 1050) BTW. Few problems with the Crusader Unit Prod to iron out though.

[Lord Of Storms]

I have been in this from the start and would like to see it to fruition Goal:Adding New Bug free factions to MTWVI I will lend support when and where I can , I have a very good working knowledge of both MTW and MTWVI file system. I am not much for unit modding or animation but seeing as how this is not part of what needs to be done all the better. So add me to the list thanks. LOS P.S. There is a new member Lance6969 who has stated he is a programmer I have asked for his help in this matter, he is new to modding but I feel we can work with him to learn whats needed and maybe Wellington can offer some help on what needs to be done from a programmers perspective.