Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Agema Phalangites

  1. #1
    Member Member El Diabolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Thumbs down

    Agema means a part of a battle ship's crew that lands with the aim of carrying out a special service.So,the new unit description of Agema Phalangites in totalwar.com is completely irrelevant and historically unjustifiable.The King's guard should be named otherwise.For example:Royal guard Phalangites,although in ancient Greece there hasn't been known any special King's bodyguards unit except the famous Etairoi cavalry that escorted Alexander the Great in his battles and campaigns.I hope that in Rome Total War Alexander's the Great era won't be confused with The great Roman Empire era.Furthermore,at the time of the Great Roman Empire Greece was part of it and many battles between Roman Leaders' armies occured in Greece's lands.So the Greeks in Rome Total War shouldn't play any role politically but only that of cultural influence.Hope that there will be a separate campaign in Classical or Hellenistic era for the GreeksI await comments.Thank you

  2. #2
    Member Member Portuguese Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    1,401

    Default

    Welcome El Diabolo. I see what you mean. I think the CA guys are slacking on their research. MTW also had some issues of historical dubious choices...
    Legacy for the airwaves.

  3. #3
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default

    agema actually means a group that escorts someone or something. It doesnt only apply for the sea. However i think we gotta wait and see the faction and the usefullnes of this unit b4 we criticise its existence.
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  4. #4
    Sovereign of Soy Member Lehesu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,829

    Default

    History is so rich and detailed, that regardless of what we take out of it, we miss things. CA's interpretation misses things, as does your post explaining why they are wrong. As it is impossible to examine every facet of history, and considering that Total War is, indeed, a game, examining and criticizing very minute details is not always the best way to achieve historical accuracy.
    Innovative Soy Solutions (TM) for a dynamically changing business environment.

  5. #5
    Member Member Portuguese Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    1,401

    Default

    You are right Lehesu. It is a very complicated thing to get everything right. That is why there are guys like us... to keep them on their toes
    Legacy for the airwaves.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Senior Member Hakonarson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,442

    Default

    Regardless of what it means, there were Agema phalangites in the Macedonian and Egyptian successor armies, and Agema cavalry in the Seleucid ones.

    Here's what I wrote about them in he Colloseum:

    Are they HOPLITES or PHALANGITES? Phalangites are pikemen, hoplites spearmen. Neither were particularly vulnerable to archery as far as I know.

    Agema units existed in the successor armies.

    The Seleucid one was 1000 men originally recruited from Median cavalry and when Media was lost to the Parthians from Macedonian colonists but remained cavalry.

    They were brigaded with the Companions - descendants of Alex's corps of heavy cavalry - who were recruited from settlers of Syria, Lydia and Phrygia and were a standing unit. Either could be the King's bodyguard.

    The Egyptian one was 3000 infantry at Raphia in 217BC - these were definitely pikemen.

    The Macedonian one was an elite within a corps of peltasts - this being a title only and not a functionary description - these guys were pikemen, and probably were destroyed athte battle of Pydna. the eltasts were an elite of 2-5000 men at various times, the Agema being maybe 2000 of 5000 at Pydna.

    These infantry Agema's were NOT dedicated royal bodyguards in the manner of MTW's Royal Knights, etc. They were merely elite infantry.

    I wonder if these are also supposed to be Argyraspids?? Silver shields, and the elite pikemen in several successor armies? The original Argyraspids were Alexander's veterans still fighting in their 60's and considered extremely effective - but too politically unreliable so banished to the far corners of the Seleucid empire

    After them there were units in a couple of armies - most notably Seleucid, where towards the end of the empire they may have been equipped in hte same manner as legionaries, perhaps imitating thier fighting style.

  7. #7
    Member Member El Diabolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ June 29 2003,18:17)]Regardless of what it means, there were Agema phalangites in the Macedonian and Egyptian successor armies, and Agema cavalry in the Seleucid ones.

    Here's what I wrote about them in he Colloseum:

    Are they HOPLITES or PHALANGITES? Phalangites are pikemen, hoplites spearmen. Neither were particularly vulnerable to archery as far as I know.

    Agema units existed in the successor armies.

    The Seleucid one was 1000 men originally recruited from Median cavalry and when Media was lost to the Parthians from Macedonian colonists but remained cavalry.

    They were brigaded with the Companions - descendants of Alex's corps of heavy cavalry - who were recruited from settlers of Syria, Lydia and Phrygia and were a standing unit. Either could be the King's bodyguard.

    The Egyptian one was 3000 infantry at Raphia in 217BC - these were definitely pikemen.

    The Macedonian one was an elite within a corps of peltasts - this being a title only and not a functionary description - these guys were pikemen, and probably were destroyed athte battle of Pydna. the eltasts were an elite of 2-5000 men at various times, the Agema being maybe 2000 of 5000 at Pydna.

    These infantry Agema's were NOT dedicated royal bodyguards in the manner of MTW's Royal Knights, etc. They were merely elite infantry.

    I wonder if these are also supposed to be Argyraspids?? Silver shields, and the elite pikemen in several successor armies? The original Argyraspids were Alexander's veterans still fighting in their 60's and considered extremely effective - but too politically unreliable so banished to the far corners of the Seleucid empire

    After them there were units in a couple of armies - most notably Seleucid, where towards the end of the empire they may have been equipped in hte same manner as legionaries, perhaps imitating thier fighting style.
    Hakonarson thanks for the reply

    Well,Pezetairoi and Ypaspistes who formed the right side of the Macedonian Phalanx and were the bravest and propably socially superior than simple Phalangites who composed the rest of the Phalanx(that's why they were posted in the right side of the formation which was theoretically and practically the weakest)were later named after the colour of their shields:Leykaspides(White Shields),Chalkaspides(Copper Shields),Argyraspides(Silver Shields)and Chrysaspides(Golden Shields).

  8. #8
    Member Member El Diabolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ June 29 2003,18:17)]Regardless of what it means, there were Agema phalangites in the Macedonian and Egyptian successor armies, and Agema cavalry in the Seleucid ones.

    Here's what I wrote about them in he Colloseum:

    Are they HOPLITES or PHALANGITES? Phalangites are pikemen, hoplites spearmen. Neither were particularly vulnerable to archery as far as I know.

    Agema units existed in the successor armies.

    The Seleucid one was 1000 men originally recruited from Median cavalry and when Media was lost to the Parthians from Macedonian colonists but remained cavalry.

    They were brigaded with the Companions - descendants of Alex's corps of heavy cavalry - who were recruited from settlers of Syria, Lydia and Phrygia and were a standing unit. Either could be the King's bodyguard.

    The Egyptian one was 3000 infantry at Raphia in 217BC - these were definitely pikemen.

    The Macedonian one was an elite within a corps of peltasts - this being a title only and not a functionary description - these guys were pikemen, and probably were destroyed athte battle of Pydna. the eltasts were an elite of 2-5000 men at various times, the Agema being maybe 2000 of 5000 at Pydna.

    These infantry Agema's were NOT dedicated royal bodyguards in the manner of MTW's Royal Knights, etc. They were merely elite infantry.

    I wonder if these are also supposed to be Argyraspids?? Silver shields, and the elite pikemen in several successor armies? The original Argyraspids were Alexander's veterans still fighting in their 60's and considered extremely effective - but too politically unreliable so banished to the far corners of the Seleucid empire

    After them there were units in a couple of armies - most notably Seleucid, where towards the end of the empire they may have been equipped in hte same manner as legionaries, perhaps imitating thier fighting style.
    The difference between Phalangites and Oplites,Pikemen and Spearmen are too minimal.
    The Macedonian Phalangites had a longer spear that that of the classical Oplites,the sarisa which was 50%-100% longer than the usual spear.Ifikrates had proposed this change as a development of the Phalanx's equipment.The sarisa was 4-6m long enabling the first 5 rows of the formation to take active part in the fight whilst the rest 11 rows(a usual unit was 16 rows deep)had the sarisa vertically held and not horizontally(i.e in an attacking position)so as to disrupt the enemy missiles.In that respect the Mcedonian Phalangites were less vulnerable to missiles than their early counterparts.
    But one would expect them not to have a shield as the sarisa wasn't possible to be held with one arm only.But the Macedonian Phalangites did have a shield which was hung with a strap from their neck.The shield had two handles from where the left arm passed and thus let the wrist free to control the sarisa.
    The last difference is that the Macedonian Infantrymen didn't wear a thorax(breastplate,armor).
    Well,Hakonarson you said that they were occasionally called Peltasts.I can explain that by the fact that their shields were a bit curved and in that respect resembled the Peltasts's(Javelinmen)shields.
    Although the Macedonian Phalangites were very well trained and disciplined they were effective only in large plain areas,like the ones Macedonia had.That's why they were destroyed by the Roman Legiones in the battle of Pydna.

  9. #9
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Central Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    12,969

    Default

    Greetings and welcome El Diabolo.

    Just one comment: the only nit-picking I want to do is with the nits on the backs of those elephants...
    This space intentionally left blank

  10. #10
    Sovereign of Soy Member Lehesu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,829

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ June 30 2003,07:07)]Greetings and welcome El Diabolo.

    Just one comment: the only nit-picking I want to do is with the nits on the backs of those elephants...
    (Drum Solo&#33 Gregoshi, PR was right, your flamboyant humor is certainly a main feature of the Entrance Hall
    Innovative Soy Solutions (TM) for a dynamically changing business environment.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member Hakonarson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,442

    Default

    El Diablo I think yuo're confusing Macedonian phalanxes of Alexanders time with later ones.

    The period of RTW starts in 264BC IIRC - Alexander has been dead 60 years, and I think al his immediate sccessors too. The Macedonian phalanx will continue to exist for anotehr 200 years, even longer in some smaller kingdoms - IIRC Commagene sent Macedonians to help the Romans vs the Jewish revolt in 70AD.

    the Macedonian Peltasts seem to have obtained that title because Peltast had become synonymous with mercenary in the 3rd-4th century BC, and then in Macedonia the mercenaries became an elite - the title then transfered to the elite unit - it has nothing to do with shield shape at all. Most mercenary peltasts would be better described as Thureophoroi - since the Thueros shield shape pretty much replaced the Pelte.

    Hypaspists seem to have disappeared as an elite after Alex's death, whiel the Pezeratoi were ALL the rest of the pikemen in Alex's army - foot companions - presumably an atempt to make them into better soldiers by flattering them

  12. #12
    Member Member El Diabolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ June 30 2003,16:41)]El Diablo I think yuo're confusing Macedonian phalanxes of Alexanders time with later ones.

    The period of RTW starts in 264BC IIRC - Alexander has been dead 60 years, and I think al his immediate sccessors too. The Macedonian phalanx will continue to exist for anotehr 200 years, even longer in some smaller kingdoms - IIRC Commagene sent Macedonians to help the Romans vs the Jewish revolt in 70AD.

    the Macedonian Peltasts seem to have obtained that title because Peltast had become synonymous with mercenary in the 3rd-4th century BC, and then in Macedonia the mercenaries became an elite - the title then transfered to the elite unit - it has nothing to do with shield shape at all. Most mercenary peltasts would be better described as Thureophoroi - since the Thueros shield shape pretty much replaced the Pelte.

    Hypaspists seem to have disappeared as an elite after Alex's death, whiel the Pezeratoi were ALL the rest of the pikemen in Alex's army - foot companions - presumably an atempt to make them into better soldiers by flattering them
    Well,I'm not making those things out of my mind.These are historical facts.And their shield did resemble that of the Peltasts.What is your occupation anyway Hakonarson?

  13. #13
    Member Member El Diabolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8

    Default

    And Hakonarson...

    I do know when Alexander the Great was born and when he died...(356-323B.C)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO