Medmod IV v3 preliminary faction unit lineup

[WesW]

Preliminary unit list:

All factions will have access, in all provinces, to basic Spearmen, plus Archers, Crossbowmen, and gunpowder units, as well as Javelin-throwing cavalry shirmishers, and Peasants. Note that these units will not have the two morale points that were added for the expansion.
In addition, all Catholic factions will be able to produce Royal Bodyguards in all their provinces, unless stated otherwise, since this represents the local nobility. These units are 50% more expansive, man per man, than regular knights, so I think this provides a reasonable trade-off for the additional strength they provide. I may create a Royal Druzhina Bodyguard for the Russians with similar costs and availability. Also, unless specified, the Royal Bodyguard units are unchanged from the basic game.
This means that the restricted units are basically advanced spearmen, blades, polearms and non-royal cavalry, as well as faction specialties such as Longbowmen.

At this point, I have no plans to alter any of the Muslim units from the 1.84 version of the mod, except perhaps the return of some cavalry units to their original settings. Note that the Muslim factions will have a Homeland region as well.
Thus, I have listed below the units that will be restricted to each Christian faction's Homeland provinces, with mercenary suggestions where there are no native options.
Note that all non-regional Catholic units may be built in the Outremer (Palestine, Antioch and Tripoli). In addition, French units, which are used by the Crusader Kingdoms, may be built in Cyprus.

Current regionally restricted units such as Steppe Cav are implied to still be available as before, though this could change later on for a few such units.

New concept: Homelands. A dozen or so provinces that share the same ethnicity as a given faction, usually encompassing the faction's territory and some surrounding provinces. Note that two or more factions may claim the same province, where their peoples intermingle. This can often lead to conflict between the factions.

New concepts: restricted Inns and Buildable Mercenary units.
Inns can now be built only in provinces where the Mercenary "good" is found. These provinces will generally be in areas where ethnic Homelands overlap, and thus conflict is more likely, or in areas where special mercenary troops are available, such as in Ireland.
Each faction will generally have an Inn available at the start of the game. Thus, as your empire expands, you may be able to capture other designated provinces, build them up, and use them as further recruitment centers. However, this will take time and money.
Buildable mercenary units require all of the buildings that they would were they normal troops, in addition to the Inn, and may be built by any faction. These units cost 50% more than comparable units, just like Royal Bodyguards. They are a way of:
1)filling in the gaps certain factions have in their native troops, including Muslim factions
2)fielding balanced armies, or
3)just bulking up your forces, but all at a premium.
Note that Inns cost more to construct than before, since their potential effect is greater, especially for factions such as the Byzantines.

Generic buildable merc units (faction-specific units are specified in the faction unit lists below):
Alan Merc Cav- All eras
Germanic Knights- Feudal Kns; High and Late eras
Mercenary Viking Landsmenn- Early era only
Mercenary Gallowglasses- High and Late eras
Swiss Mercenary Pikemen- Late era only, Northern Europe
Almughavars- Late era only, Mediterranean region


Huns
The Huns have a hybrid force of both Eastern and Western unit types, which reflects their struggles against both Muslim and Christian forces.
Note: The Poles and Hungarians have lost the ability to launch Crusades that was added for v1 of the mod.

Early-
Hungarian Nobles- Feudal Kns.
Szekely Horsearchers- use VI stats
Bulgarian Brigands- bonus in Bulgaria
Woodsmen (regional)- Woodsmen now have a large shield and a little better descipline, which places them in between Urban Militia and Viking Landsmenn. Also, they can now be found all over Europe, except for the open Steppes, Italy and Iberia.

High-
Serbian Husars- Teutonic Sgts.; bonus in Serbia
Bashtina- Chiv. Kns.; buildable mercs
Transylvanian Archers- Arm. Ottoman Inf.
Croatian Spearmen- Chiv. Sgts.

Late-
Knights of the Banderium- Kns of Santiago
Clipeati- Pikemen
Armati Infantry- Halberdiers

Poles
The Poles are a somewhat hybrid force as well, though they develop some very nice heavy units in the last half of the medieval period, and are further strengthened in the Late era by their merger with Lithuania.
Note: The Poles and Hungarians have lost the ability to launch Crusades that was added for v1 of the mod.

Early-
Szekely Horsearchers- use VI stats; bonus in Moldavia
Polish Retainers
Baltic Infantry (regional)- Bulgarian Brigands; bonus in Novgorod
Woodsmen- bonus in Prussia

High-
Czeladz Bowmen- Mtd. X-bow w/Byzantine Cav. stats
Czeladz Lancers- Teutonic Sgts.
Knights of Dobrzyn- Kns. Templar
Polish Militia- Billmen
Silesian Spearmen- Chiv Sgts.

Late-
Rycerz- Kns. of Santiago
Rycerz Swordsmen- Hospitaller Ft. Kn.
Silesian Pikemen- Pikemen; bonus in Silesia

HRE
HRE units have lower than normal morale, though they do get a boost in the Late era from their unique ability to hire Landsknecht buildable mercenaries, from Inns located within their Homeland. In addition, their Homeland is larger than normal, encompassing the traditional HRE provinces, plus Livonia and parts of Poland and Hungary.
There are two Landsknecht units: Pikemen and Halberdiers.
These units have better than average morale, and impressive stats, so an integrated force, combined with the excellent German mounted units, can be a very potent army.
They *are* mercenaries, however, so they cost somewhat more than regular units, though less than typical mercs.

Early-
Dienstleuten- Mounted Sgts.
Knechte- Feudal Kns.; bonus in Bavaria (reflects seat of power)
Heerban- FMAA

High-
Teutonic Sgts.
Teutonic Kns.- Chiv Kns.; bonus in Prussia
Swabian Swordsmen- Swabia only
Teutonic Spearmen- Chiv. Sgts.

Late-
Gothic Kns.- bonus in Austria (reflects seat of power)
Gothic Ft. Kns.
Gothic Sgts.

Danes
The descendents of the Vikings remain strong in infantry, but weak in the other areas (spears and cavalry).

Royal Huscarles are the 40-man bodyguard unit for Danish nobility, and have early, high and late versions.

Early-
Viking Raider Cav- like VC
Viking Landsmenn- like VC; bonus in Norway
Viking Karlsmenn- orig. Byz. Inf.

High-
Nordic Mauraders- Mtd. Sgts.
Viking Huscarles- Hosp. Ft. Kns.

Late-
Mtd. Huscarles- lower-quality Gothic Kns.
Armoured Huscarles- JomsVikings

French
The French are somewhat the *default* faction, being the one that CA seems to have built the Catholic factions' unit lineup around. Well, I have managed to work in a couple of wrinkles which I think you will like.

The French bodyguard units are their era's knights, namely the Destriders, Chevaliers and Lancers. This means that those units are available for that era only, though the French nobility will lead impressive, 40-man units, reflecting French supremecy in mounted knighthood.
In addition, the French knights will still retain their bodyguard status, meaning they may be built in *all* French-controlled provinces.

The French, as well as the English, can obtain superior Flemish Pikemen from Flanders, should they be able to capture and hold that rebellious province.

Early-
Destriders- Feudal Kns.; bonus in Anjou
Feudal MAA
Urban Militia
Woodsmen
Pyrennese Brigands (sp?); Fyrdmen; regional; Catholic
High-
Chevaliers- Chiv. Kns.
Mtd. Sgts.
Militia Sgts.
Basque Inf.- Armoured Spearmen; regional; Catholic only

Late-
Lancers
Gendarmes- bonus in Paris
Compagnies d'Ordonnance- Hosp. Ft. Kns
Voulgiers- Halbs.
Partisans- Pikemen

English
The English develop potent archer units as the period progresses, get the unique Billman unit, and maintain adequate knights from their French possessions. Their native spear units are quite poor, however.

The English, as well as the French, can obtain Scottish Highlanders and/or Pikemen, with Highlanders available in all eras while Pikemen arrive in the High era. Though the Pikemen are of poorer quality than the regular unit that developed later, they, like Billmen, can be an advantage in the High era, and may be the only option available to the English in the Late era. In addition, Irish Bonnaghts (MM v2.04 stats) may be bought as buildable mercenaries.

Early-
Norman Knights- Feudal Kns.; bonus in Normandy
Norman Sgts.- Mtd. Sgts.
Woodsmen
Bonnaughts- Irish buildable mercenaries; Ireland only
Longbowmen
Fyrdmen- like VC

High-
Muntators- Sp. Jinettes
Welsh Longbowmen- Welsh Bandits w/bucklers
Billmen- bonus in Mercia
Gallowglasses- available in Northumbria and Scotland; bonus in Scotland.

Late-
Knights of Gascon- Chiv. Kns.
Hobilars- Sp. Jinettes+1; bonus in Ireland
Mercian Longbowmen- Sherwood Foresters w/bucklers

Spanish/Aragonese
When the Medieval period begins, the Christian factions have been pushed to the nothern highlands of the Iberian Peninsula by the Muslim invaders. The Early era covers the time when the Christians turned the tide of the war, the High era when the Almohad Empire collapsed due to losses and civil strife, and the Late era when the Christians set about consolidating their gains, including the initiation of the Inquisition, and the mopping up of the remaining Muslim-controlled areas.
The Sp/Ar enjoy a price discount on their units, and have stronger than average militia troops, as their people are used to defending their towns, and this war was about ethnic and cultural survival, rather than plunder or political aspirations.
Tercio units do not have a price discount, coming as they do after Spanish survival has been assured, but they do not have a price penalty, either, like Landsknechts.

Early-
Spanish Jinetes; bonus in Valencia
Kns. of Hidalgo- Feudal Kns.
Spanish Militia- Viking Landsmenn
Pyrennese Brigands (sp?); Fyrdmen; regional; Catholic only; bonus in Navarre

High-
Kns. Calatrava- Chiv. Kns.; bonus in Aragon
Caballeros- Teutonic Sgts.
Spanish Militia Sgts.- Viking Huscarles, can melee w/sh.
Basque Inf.- Armoured Spearmen; regional; Catholic only

Late-
Kns. of Santiago- bonus in Leon
Spanish Ft. Kns.- Hosp. Ft. Kns.
Tercio Pikemen- Swiss Pikemen

Italians
The Italians will be split between two factions; the Venetians and the Tuscan Confederacy. The Venetians will control Venice and all Italian provinces to the east, while the Tuscans will control everything west of Venice.
This will result in two relatively small factions, though ones with potent defensive troops and the potential to raise large armies through a profitable sea trade over time. The Venetians in particular could be poised to become a major power in the High era, when they will control Constantinople in addition to the normal Italian states.
Italian units are built to defend against attacks by their larger Christian neighbors, such as France and the HRE. This has lead to the development of superior spear units, and at an earlier era than other Catholic factions. Well-trained, versatile crossbow units are also a hallmark of Italian armies.
In addition, the constant skirmishes and outright wars among each other, along with the Lombards and Sicilians to the south, has resulted in Contadina and Popolo militias that are stronger than normal.
On the negative side, the urban nature of the Italian power structure, built more around trade than feudalism, means that Italian nobles have not attained nor kept pace with the martial prowess and technological development of their Catholic peers, though they do get some help with the arrival of Mercenary Hospitaller Knights in the Late era.

Early-
Italian Nobles- Feudal Kns.
Contadina Cav.- Mtd. Sgts. w/X-bows
Contadina Inf.- Militia Sgts.
Italian Sailors- Bul. Brigands w/X-bows; bonus in Genoa
Ital. Lt. Inf.- bonus in Milan

High-
Popolo Cav.- Teutonic Sgts.
Italian MAA- FMAA
Carraccio Guard- Varangian Guard
Popolo Inf.- Billmen; bonus in Tuscany
Pavise Sailors- Ital. Sailiors with pavise sh.
Pavisiers- Gothic Sgts.

Late-
Hosp Merc Kns.- buildable mercs; Chapterhouse required instead of Inn
Hosp. Ft. Kns.- buildable mercs; Chapterhouse required instead of Inn
Condoterri- Swiss Halberdiers; bonus in Rome
Pavisier Pikemen- Swiss Arm. Pikemen

Sicilians
The Sicilians have perhaps the most unique army in all of Christendom, in that it employs significant numbers of Muslim troops in its repertoire, as well as Italian units and Norman and Teutonic Knights.

Early-
Norman Kns.- Feudal Kns.; Malta, Sicily and Naples only
Berber Camel Warriors
Mamluk Horse Archers
Contadina Cav.- Mtd. Sgts. w/X-bows
Contadina Inf.- Militia Sgts.
Futuwwa
Nubian Spearmen

High-
Teutonic Kns.- Malta, Sicily and Naples only
Popolo Cav.- Teutonic Sgts.
Popolo Inf.- Billmen
Pavise Sailors- Bul. Brigands w/X-bows and Pavise Sh.
Murabitin Inf.

Late-
Hosp Merc Kns.- buildable mercs; Chapterhouse required
Hosp. Ft. Kns.- buildable mercs; Chapterhouse required
Almughavars (buildable merc)

Russians
The Russian forces change character with their subjugation by the Mongols. Before, they were modelled along similar lines to the Feudal Europeans, but after their forced vassalage, they gradually changed until they closely resembled the Steppe peoples they were primarily combating.
However, their western provinces do have the ability to produce western-style heavy infantry if it is needed to combat invading Teutonic Kns. or others.
Russian bodyguard units are 20-man Royal Druzhina Knights, which have separate variations for each era.
Note: Remember that the Steppes produce several types of cavalry which the Russians will have access to.

Early-
Boyars- unchanged
Woodsmen
Peshtsi- Slav Warriors; 100-man unit
Kop'ya Infantry- Feudal Sgts.

High-
Russian Retainers- Boyars w/ X-bow
Peshtsi Sgts.- Militia Sgts.
Rogatina Infantry- Rus Spearmen

Late-
Russian Dvors- Khazar Royal Cav w/axe
Cossacks- Teutonic Sgts.
Berdyshi- Halberdiers
Ratniki solva- Swiss Arm. Pikemen

Byzantines
The Byzantines are unique in the game for several reasons: the professional nature of their armed forces, the extent to which they used foreign mercenaries, their geographical location, and their history, such as how they begin the High era having lost their capital province to a deceitful combination of hypocritical Crusaders and schemeing trading rivals. Even though they were eventually able to recapture Constantinople, Byzantine power had been dealt a deadly blow, and the following years were simply the death throes of the empire.
Even though very capable units could have been raised or hired by the Byzantines, they were too crippled to make wide use of them. Though a start in the Early era gives you the opportunity to strike at your enemies before they can gain strength, later games will be a task of holding off the numerous aggressors around you, and then using your advanced units to grow your empire.
The Byzantines have access to perhaps more impressive units than any faction in the game, but they are hampered from raising large numbers of these troops by the geographic restrictions of many native units, and the mercenary status of the heaviest units, whose armour and training are foreign to the ways of the East.
To represent the large amounts of mercenaries in the Byzantine armies, they are given the ability to build Inns in three of their Homeland's provinces: Constantinople, Bulgaria and Greece.
Bulgaria and Greece were chosen because they are part of the Empire in all three eras, and to represent the fact that most mercenaries hired were fellow Christians from Europe.
Note that Constantinople is considered a European province.

The new, 20-man Kataphractoi bodyguards have added a bow and heavy lance to their already impressive arsenal. With upgraded armouries, they continue to be an effective unit for the duration of the Medieval period.

EARLY-
Kataphraktoi; bonus in Constan
Stratiotai- Byz. Lancers
Vardariots- Byz. Cav.
Hoplitai- Feudal Sgts. with an attack of 2; bonus in Greece
(Early) Varangian Guard- early only; buildable mercs; Constan only
Trebizond archers- bonus in Trebizond

HIGH-
Pronoiai Allagion- bonus in Nicaea; Asia Minor only
Kontaratoi- Italian Lt Inf. w/+1 attack
Paramonai- CMAA; Europe only
Mourtatoi- armoured Trebizonds, only available in certain coastal provinces

LATE-
Imperial Kavallarioi- Gothic Kns.; buildable mercs
Imperial Menavlatoi- Swiss Halberdiers; buildable mercs
Imperial Skutatoi- Swiss Pikemen; buildable mercs

Golden Horde
The Horde will retain their bonuses from the 1.85 version, plus they have some new units from their vast empire, and of course access to all the Steppe units.

High-
Mongol Heavy Cav.
Mongol HA
Mongol Warriors
Chinese Infantry- Saracen Inf.
Chinese Mangonels- w/exploding ammo ala gunpowder arty

Late-
Berdyshi- Halberdiers (from subjugated Steppe border provinces)
Ratniki solva- Swiss Arm. Pikemen (from subjugated Steppe border provinces)

This finishes up the major factions.

For the minor factions, I currently have:

Swiss, Late only;- Swiss units, Italian spear units, HRE and French infantry, Fr. and HRE Early-era Kns. and Mtd. Sgts. The Swiss are very strong in infantry, but weaker in mounted units than even the Italians. The Swiss have access to most infantry units of their three surrounding neighbors over the entire Homeland of those respective units. This means that the Swiss can potentially recruit troops from a very large area, but will this be enough to build an empire given their weakness in mounted units?

Ottoman and Seljuk Turks;- eras yet to be worked out. Both will use current Turkisk units.

Burgundians, Late;- Flemish Pikemen; French units

Papacy- Italian units

Lithuanians, Early and High eras (E&H);- Boyars for BD unit, Lith. Cav. instead of Polish Retainers, Polish units otherwise.
Livonians, Early only;- People of Novgorod. Russian and regional units.
Prussians, E&H;- Lith. Cav. BD, Polish units otherwise.
Teutonic Order, H&L;- Germanic units
Swedes, all eras;- Danish units
Scots, all eras;- Scottish units
Irish, Early only;- Irish units
Serbians, H&L;- Hungarian units
Kievans, E&H;- Russian units
Cumans, E&H;- regional units
Georgians, all eras;- Byzantine units
Cilician Armenians, all eras;- Byzantine units
Crusader Kingdoms, High era only;- French units plus Turcopoles
Tunisian Berbers, all eras;- regional units
Portuguese, and Basque, all eras;- Spanish units

[Yelping Godzilla]

My greatest initial concern is the amount of jav armed units, whether mounted or on foot. You say that all factions will have access to basic jav infantry, but I'm not sure this would be historically accurate, not to mention that even with javs modded to aadd range (they cannot skirmish and get close enough to throw unmodded) the AI is pretty rubbish at using them.

I wouldn't mind seeing an axe armed nordic/viking mercenary unit on the mercenary unit roster in early, Northern Europe. They were still the best infantry in Europe at this point and they give factions such as the English, who aren't 'blade' heavy a better chance of killing off some French knights early on. Would include Gael Gaedhil, ostmen from Ireland, nordic scots, viking remnants and so on.

I'll keep posting :]

EEUURAAH.

[Hakonarson]

I agree with YG - javelin armed infantry and light cavalry skirmishers were not that common and were generally remarkable when they were around.

I think I'd switch the German and Polish knights around - make the German mercenaries Gothic, and the Poles Feudal - IIRC Gothik Knights are heavily protected but have a fairly low charge and attack? I think this probably fits their image better as not quite as good as "real" knights, while Polish knigts were considered as good as any except the French.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Hakonarson: Do you know anything about 'Romanian' armed forces during the MTW period? I seem to remember being told that they had particularly good, if comparatively lightly armoured knights.

WesW: Just noticed the word Landsknechts at the bottom of your post.

I presume you are going to make German Landsknechts a mercenary unit available across Europe in Late (possible discount for HRE hiring them)? My only question would be, how will they be different from Swiss pikemen in the game? I know that in reality they were famed for their use of not only pikes but also staggeringly large and heavy two handed swords. I don't think this dual use can be covered by one unit, so I'd like to suggest that they might be split into two, Landsknecht pike and Lansknecht flambergers. The pike unit holds the enemy medium infantry and heavy cavalry, the flambergers (two handed sowrd infantry) chop up the heavy infantry and then finish off troublesome knights.

Been waiting for a chance to use Landsknechts, so please tell me they're in :]

EEUURAAH.

[Hakonarson]

Romanians had a fierce reputation - particularly under Dracula - but their "heavy" cavalry was fairly light - they didn't use spurs apparently, so didn't wear leg armour to allow them to control their horses properly with their legs. Otherwise they resembled western knights - wearing plate armour, long lances, etc.

Most Romanian cavalry were bow-armed light skirmishers tho' - still considered fierce and extrmely good, but doing a completely different job.

The OTHER Romanians are the Romanian Franks - those that took over large parts of Greece in teh wake of het 4th Crusade's capture of Constantinople in 1204 - they weer apaperntly extremely highly regarded.

[Yelping Godzilla]

I think I'm actually thinking of both and combining them - the Romanian heavy cavalry and the Romanian Frank knights merge to create a highly regarded non spurred heavy knight, heh.

Thanks for the information. I wonder if it's worth including Romanian territorial units (Frank or otherwise).

EEUURAAH.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Ah, you've edited in more faction lineups. It all looks very good, I epsecially like the idea of the French recruiting their nobility from any province. I presume the royal bodyguard unit size for the french will be 40 knights default?

One major question I have is this; Will there be sufficient overlap in useful non basic units between factions that provinces can be given valour bonus which makes the province useful for either side? For example, will the standard generic MTW Chivalric Knight unit be kept on for factions like England and France, then assigned a valour bonus in a province that could belong to either of them? I'm a little worried that by reducing the number of generic (non basic) units shared between factions, the very cool territorial bonus strats from v1.85 will be negated.

While I like the differing factional units which fill certain existing roles (such as Germanic swordsmen as FMAA for HRE), I'm not sure leaving out the generic units would be a good idea - presumably each factional type is subtley different from the generic and in some cases replaces it entirely (again, germanic swordsmen/FMAA etc). However I'd like to see a few factions share that generic - FMAA still being used by the French /and/ Polish for example.

Anyhoo. Looks good.

EEUURAAH.

[Hamburglar]

Hey Wes

Just some thoughts:


1) I think Javelin type units shouldn't be all over the place. They were kind of rare to begin with in Medieval times and making every faction have them seems to be overkill. PLUS, more importantly, the AI doesn't know how to use them well. I find that Slav Javlinmen really REALLY hurt the Hungarian and Russian armies in the campaign because they fill up on them and they are basically a crappy throwaway unit that never gets a chance to chuck its spears and just dies immediately. Same thing with the Mounted Javelins. The AI doesn't ever use them correctly. They just march them up to your lines and
A) Try to throw a javelin but get skirmished away when you take two steps forward.
B) Get pummelled by your missle tropps
C) Get surrounded and smashed quite easily



2) Where's the love for the Feudal Men at Arms? I think every Catholic faction should have these guys. Factions that don't will be at a MAJOR disadvantage. I can see the French utterly RAPING the English since the English have ZERO strong infantry units in Early. They seem way too weak - they don't even have militia units besides crappy Fyrdmen. I think militia sergeants and urban militia should be available across the board to everyone, but only in their home provinces. I can see the Byzantines really tearing up the Hungarians with their Byz Inf because the Huns have nothing to fight it with. Poles have no halfway decent infantry either. I think Feudal Sergeants or Feudal Men at Arms are an essential backbone.

3) Gallowglasses. Why only High and Late? they were in the Viking campaign thus they were in VERY Early, plus the description itself says they are an old unit, a relic of earlier times. Every other High and Late unit in the game is something that "developed" or was "invented" over time. I see Gallowglasses as having been there for quite awhile.

4) German units: Giving them lower morale I think is pretty bad. No reason for it either. Germans have a HARD enough time surviving through the Early Age as a powerful country and making them have crappier morale is gonna slam them. Sure, they might be good in Late but they're never gonna survive till then. The average German soldier was no more cowardly than the average Frenchman, Pole, or Italian, but you're making it that way. They just weren't very unified. I think the low loyalty of their generals is enough to hurt them. Besides, I think the Germans got shafted anyway by making Italy so strong. Historically, Italy existed in a FAR LESS unified form than Germany. Germany was at least united in name, Italy truly was just a bunch of provinces with no loyalty to each other whatsoever.

5) Where's the love for the CMAA? It seems nobody gets them. Just a little weird. I didn't think they were that "overkill"

6) Pikemen - I understand that some factions have "unique" Pikemen, but in the Late Age practically every Catholic army had a decent contingent of Pikemen AND Halberdiers (Hey, are they even on here at all?). Hiring mercenary Pikemen is difficult and expensive, kind of eliminating the point of them in the first place. They were the next evolution in spears, and denying them to a lot of factions because someone stole their Inn isn't cool.

7) Hobilars: Why Late period? And why make them missile troops? Historically they were available quite early and that they were simply very light horsemen used for scouting and chasing down crappy troops. Don't change our precious hobilars into a missile troop pleaaaaase.

8)Arbalests: Don't see them on here whatsoever. You didn't list them in the "every faction" list so I'm just wondering who does and doesn't get them.

9)Danes: They truly did get out of that whole Viking Thing later in the Medieval ages. The game illustrates this well with them not having Viking Invasion units in any era but early. Towards the Late era they were pretty much like many other Catholic armies and maybe they should get some "normal" knights and infantry.


The main problem I'm seeing here is that there's not many "standard" infantry units for factions to base their troops on. Its just a lot of specialization. The Feudal Sergeants and Feudal Men at Arms truly are the backbone of almost every Catholic nation, and getting rid of them seems kind of weird. I really woudl support just having an "English Man at Arms" and "Polish Man at Arms" or whatever (name them whatever you like) and just make them restricted to each factions home province. This way on the Big Long Conquering Tours they still can't build too many of them but they at least have that Rank and File infantry available.


I love the MedMod, this is why I write these insanely long posts, but it just seems you took the HomeLand concept that we started discussing months ago a little too far. It just seems that there's way too many holes in the unit lineups. For example, this is what England can build in the Early Age.

Royal Knights
Norman Knights
Mounted Sergeants
Fyrdmen
Spearmen
Archers
Peasants
and then apparently some skirmishing unit.

That seems REALLLLLLY light.

For infantry they have a choice of Fyrdmen or Spearmen essentially, both being Spear units and both having VERY low morale and both will rout at the mere contact of Feudal Men at Arms *which the French have*. The only English "strength" is their Cavalry but you said yourself the French Cav is going to be far superior.

In High the English get a decent infantry unit in the Billmen and Gallowglasses(Only in Ireland, right?). But the French improve even more with Chivalric Knights, Militia Sergeants, and Muwahid Foot.



Yeah this is getting REALLLLLY long winded but I just wanted to say what I've noticed and it seems that a lot of the delicate balance has been completely thrown off. I think a lot of it would be solved by bringing the Militia and the Feudal units back to All-Catholics so no country is a lot weaker. They should all have a similar base and then work off of their strengths.

[Yelping Godzilla]

I know you directed the post towards Wes, but I'd like to make a few points in response to yours.

1. Pretty much agree. Jav units just weren't that common. If the javs were modified to have extra range to avoid the skirmishing problem, the AI weighting would still need to be reduced, since the AI is poor with them. I don't think it's worth removing slavjavs, spanjavs etc though, if they are weighted correctly.

2. The English really didn't use very many FMAA, which is to say they didn't use many swordsmen. Giving them spear and bow armies doesn't make that much sense for Early though, since the English weren't a bow heavy army in that period. Bear in mind that the English will be able to get, presumably, light offensive infantry in the form of highland clansmen/celts/irish units etc though. I agree the FMAA FS etc 'generic' units should be available to most, but the idea is to force differences between the catholic factions. Historically I think most if not all catholic factions could raise urban militia (Wes said basic non homeland units wouldn't be in the faction unit lists) but a lot of them probably wouldn't field many Militia Sergeants.

3. CA have Gallowglass, or Galloglaich, wrong as far as I'm concerned. They're Scottish (not Pict) and they appeared in Irish armies in the High/Late periods commonly as mobs of mercenaries, using axes. That's where the confusion comes in - they were more common in Ireland than anywhere else because they were the best mercenaries readily available to Irish lords looking to gain power. They were around in Early but not so common, active or successful. They're often mixed up with Gael Gaedhil, which were Irish/Nordic axe waving lunatics. Don't know how they should fit into V3.

4. Not sure what Wes means about the extra morale in VI being removed. I presume the HRE will be the same as everyone else for basic inf morale. If not, I agree with you, they shouldn't be handicapped :]

5. Hmm. I don't know much about the use of CMAA historically, but I doubt they were that heavily used, especially by some factions. I do think they should be present, as a generic unit, but not for catholic factions who avoided heavy sword foot, or already used massed dismounted knights. Er, actually if they used massed dismounted knights, they'd be more likely to have CMAA, so ignore me.

6. I figured pikemen in late counted as a basic unit you could raise outside your homelands.

7. I think horsemen have replaced hobilars. Historically, I believe they were the same thing. Mounted infantry that stayed mounted in battle. I'd like to see the two distinguished from eachother, with horsemen being a non-homeland basic unit, that takes the MTW standard hobilar role (only with more accurate/balanced stats) and hobilars being a homeland unit available only to say one third the catholic factions, with higher morale, being dedicated harassment/capture/ambush cavalry. Still mounted infantry rather than dedicated heavy cav (knights) or cav support (mounted sergeants) but with higher morale, slightly better speed etc otherwise same as they ever were.

8. Basic troops again? On a very personal note, I want to see arbalests increased further in quality from crossbows (range, lethality etc), costing more and being rarer. At the moment, they simply replace the crossbow, which is irritating. Arbalests in MTW mean heavy crossbows, heavy crossbows require much more training and dedication to use, hence they weren't massed levy weapons.

9. No idea. I thought in many places, such as Finland and Norway, change was slow, but that it was quick in Denmark itself.


I know my reply isn't exactly as important as WesW's, eheh, since it's his mod, but I figure discussion can't hurt. Good to see intelligent comments.

EEUURAAH.

[Lancer6969]

Gallowglasses aren't only "high and late" I believe they are "early and late" or "early and high"....should implement them all over northern brittania.

[WesW]

Let me see if I can clear some things up here...

HB, you need to read the Advice Needed thread I started last week to get info on the historical makeup of the medieval armies of each faction. It's probably on page 2 now. It explains a lot of where this list comes from, plus I give some other explanations of my aims with the mod.
A lot of the questions you raised are answered or cleared up in that thread, though YP did a good job with several of them.

My thoughts on unit use:

From my experiences, which I admit may not be as extensive as many of your's, the AI does ok with Sp. Jinettes. It's the infantry that they can't use, because it can be ridden down by faster infantry or cavalry. The jav-cav units (jav-cav is a unit from my other medmods) are meant to be hobilar-like scouts. They aren't *supposed* to engage other units head-to-head, so even if they didn't have the javs, I would want them to avoid engagement if possible.
The times when I have tried to chase down Jinettes, I have simply winded my Mtd. Sgts or knights, left their backs exposed to the other AI cav units, and trapped behind their lines.
I frequently use my light cav as bait versus the AI, so if we want to pull off one or more of our units to chase them down, that's our mistake to make, as far as I am concerned. They are to be used to run down fleeing infantry and/or cav units, and if they can launch a few javs before then, then that's an extra benefit.

I think I will go ahead and remove the jav infantry unit from the generic list. I just thought of them as being shirmishers available to fill out a main army in the Early era, or a non-homeland garrison in the later eras. They may be more trouble than they are worth if the AI loads up on them as soon as they are available, and before it has access to better troops.
I hope to use the minor factions concept, where there will be *no* rebel provinces at the start of the game, to eliminate or tone down the AI tendency to load up on whatever troops are available as soon as the game starts. I believe that it does this in reaction to the over-strength rebel provinces on its borders, so that by making them real factions, it will remove this reaction, among other game benefits.

Morale:
CA gave all units in the game 2 more morale points for the expansion, in response to player calls, mostly MP'ers from what I have heard. I plan to remove these added points for the generic units and the HRE units. I plan to remove them from the HRE units to reflect the reality of the Empire's fragmented status. This balances out the fact that the HRE has no holes in its unit lineup.

Gallowglasses:
From what I have read, in more than one place, they didn't appear in battlefield reports until circa 1250, fighting with the Irish. I didn't hear that they were mercs, so YP would seem to have more in-depth knowledge of them than I, but I want them to be a Ireland-only unit, like in 1.1, available to the English after they take over the heart of Ireland for the High era.
I agree with YP in thinking that CA pretty much mythified their explanation for putting glasses in the VC. *I* believe that they were included to give the Irish one unit that didn't absolutely SUCK when the AI was in charge. I am going to try and give them another with my last VC update, btw.

I had actually forgotten about Highlanders, but I will leave them alone, so the English can recruit them if they conquer Scotland.

Generic units:
Arbs fall into the bolt category with X-bows, so they will be available as before. I meant to convey the thought that all the "standard" projectile units, from Archers to Arquebusiers, will be available as before.
You can include the artillery in with that as well.

Militia units:
From what I keep reading and hearing from posters, militia units, or levies, were spearmen, not axemen. Again, I would take your historical examples that contradict this into consideration, but what I keep finding time and again is that, outside of dismounted knights, blades and polearms were rare until you get into the late era in the north, and were secondary weapons to the bow most everywhere else.
Btw, cav units will dismount into the same units as in v1.84, unless a special circumstance is present.

Swordsmen:
Please see militia comment above.

Non-Homeland troop availability:
I want you to be able to raise basic, early-era level troops in these conquered provinces, along with missile and artillery units.
Special units like Flemish Pikemen or Lithuanian Cav may be built under certain circumstances in selected provinces, but basically the heart of the Homeland concept is that the quality troops needed to defend all of your provinces will have to come from your ethnic population.

Faction holes:
I really don't think I have left many gaping holes in the faction lineups, unless you want to talk about unit types unsuited to their native terrain.
For factions like the English who may need swordsmen in the early period- this is what the buildable mercs are for. The building priorities will be set so that the English build the required structures for Viking Landsmenn, and the AI should start spitting them out. The English won't have a lot of them, but they are only supposed to have enough to defend with, not attack. If they want to attack, they will have to develop their faction strengths.
The English, for example get their best units in the high period, when they can perhaps weaken the French. The French were indeed weak at the start of the Hundred Years' War, and will be in the mod with the emergence of Burgundy. However, the French then receive their best units, with which they can, perhaps, turn the tide.

Statistical differences:
Unless noted, new units will have exactly the same stats as the old units they are compared to in the unit lineup. They will also have the same icon and same battlefield look, so we won't get bogged down in learning a whole new, very long unit list.

I want them to have their historical names, and I hope some of you will volunteer to research and write accurate, historical descriptions for them. Stuff like this is what makes a game come *alive* (those of you who have played previous medmods can perhaps attest to this), and really immerses you in the time and place. In my other mods, I needed a half-dozen people just to help with all the descriptions, and I am going to need some big-time help with this one as well.

Danes:
I am getting away from historical accuracy with their lineup to some extent, but for gameplay aspects I think that there needs to be *one* Catholic faction whose strength is infantry.
I want each faction to be unique, and I prefer to have one faction specialize in each unit category, so that we get the opportunity to experience a full variety of situations and challanges on both the strategic and tactical level.
My thinking is that the Danes will be well suited to rainy, cold and forested Scandinavia, but they will face increasing hardships if they try to expand too far south or east. Their hardy axemen should do well versus knights until perhaps the late era, when they see the need for a type of Gothic knight to better defend against the advanced units of the French and HRE. They can protect against flanking attacks, and force the enemy to engage in melee, when the Arm. Huscarles can chop them to pieces.
However, if the Danes go a'Viking too far from home, and see a horde of Mongol HA's surrounding them on the Steppes, they may be screwed.

This leads into what the whole mod is about-

1)Every faction is distinct and unique, both to play as and to engage in battle. I mean, you could play Custom Battles and get up to 30x30 unique challenges just playing in the same era and on the same map.
2)It should be a bitch-and-a-half to get a complete conquest victory, or even a partial one if you start in the Late era.
Also, from the way the units are shaping up, the Late era appears to be the most interesting one, which is significantly different from what most people report with the current setup. Perhaps we can get into using Serpentines and assaulting Fortresses. Wouldn't that be...Medieval?
3)The game will give a much greater historical feel than before, both from 1) and 2), and from the historically accurate names, abilities and descriptions.
Right now, I plan on calling this version
The Medieval Mod IV: 3D - Feel it, Play it, LIVE it.

(Just don't ask about diplomacy, though that part will be a little better too with the minor factions concept.);)

Will it all work? We'll see, but if you're not stoked just from reading my two posts in this thread, then you need to go back to playing chess. THIS is the stuff that gets *me* stoked about mod-making, and THIS is the stuff that the Medieval Modification Packs name is all about. Up until now, I have been learning about the game and the era, and tuning things up. Now we are finally getting into a complete overhaul, at least with what we have access to, and this is the stuff that has resulted in players like you sending me checks for up to $40 once when I asked for donations that reflected the mod's worth to them. (I asked for the donations because I was facing a potential crisis with some upcoming medical bills, but that didn't affect their donation amount.)

Making these mods has been a blast for me, and so too I believe for everyone who has helped with them in the past. I hope some of you join in on this one, and we can get that feeling once again.

[BDC]

This looks very very hopeful. The publishers should pay you for doubling the life of their game.

I can't wait.

[Yelping Godzilla]

I have plenty to say, including that it's YG not YP ;]

But for the moment I want to address a a single issue. Will Norman Knights be the English royal bodyguard unit in Early/High and then Gascon in Late? (similar for Poland, with polish retainers etc)

OR

As I would prefer it, will the generic royal knights that change in each period be used? It occurs to me that this would allow the English access to full plate, barding equipped chivalric knights in High in addition to the feudal Norman Knights, although only in very small numbers, at great cost and most often with the most noble of nobles, the royal family. This makes complete sense to me. The English did have /some/ up to date knights in the High period and this would reflect this perfectly.

In fact I'd forgotten the generic royal units for all the Catholic factions (excepting French, Danish etc) make quite a change to strats and army makeup. I would argue that keeping the generic royal units for these non-specialised (royally) factions doesn't make the factions samey at all, rather it retains the ability of a strong, numerous royal family to bolster your power (as well as being a pain if they get ideas about the throne). I want to suggest that the generic royal knights units be made even more expensive than they currently are (200% of 'standard' cost or similar).

If you aren't planning on keeping them on, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree, argue, complain and generally be a pain :]

EEUURAAH.

[WesW]

Unless stated otherwise, the royal guard will be the same as always for all factions.

Btw, Simon has sent me a spreadsheet where he has integrated the Gore lists with MTW's, and I am looking that over now. It may be that I can add some Urban Militia for the English in Early.

This is the preliminary list, so it's a work in progress, obviously. Keep coming in with the comments, etc. If someone disagrees with something, I'll reply with my thinking on it, but that doesn't mean I won't go back and eventually come around to their way of thinking. Sometimes is may even be weeks later, but I periodically go back and scan the previous posts for everyone's comments, and compare those with my current thoughts on the matter and try and come up with what I think is the best decision based upon what's happened since then.

The reason I try and get as much input from other players as possible is because I respect their/your opinions and logic as much as I do my own. Sometimes it takes a while for my ideas to catch on with people, especially the groundbreaking ones, and sometimes it's other's ideas that take a while for me to catch on to. I think that, in the end, we use the best of both, and that's what it's all about- making the best game possible.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I don't think you should worry about making the English weak in Early, because if you're going for historical accuracy it's not a bad point to shoot at. Generally speaking the English army was just a smaller copy of the French until the time of Edward I (at least in my opinion).

[Yelping Godzilla]

Two suggestions, both regarding buildings.

Valour bonuses.
That is, valour bonuses which come from buildings. I'm not sure how readily these can be changed by modders and if they could, what would be worth changing. However I wish to raise the point that in the Viking Campaign buildings which gave a valour bonus to a particular unit, such as the lvl2 archer building for archers, said in their description valour + 1. The church/shrine said morale + 2 (or whatever). This feature is missing from the medieval campaign and that annoys me. Even now I am unsure which buildings actually increase the valour of corresponding units. I think the VC descriptions were a step in the right direction, although even they only said "Valour + 1" not the unit the valour upgrade was for. This addition in the VC appears to be hardcoded to me, rather than simply being an altered description, however what I propose is this:

The buildings which give bonuses have their prose description slightly altered to make it CLEAR what kind of unit benefits with a bonus and then have the bonus itself laid out CLEARLY in BLOCK CAPITALS at the end of the description, like a technical addition. I don't think this would hurt the immersion into the game to any great extent and it would help out a lot of players.

Examples.

"The hyperblacksmithsupermetalarmourer employs new metal making techniques to blah blah blah and all military forces created in the province benefit from it's presence.

ARMOUR + 3"

"The church of the divine arsebucket blah blah blah leaving all military forces from this province with a boost to morale from their faith.

MORALE + 2"

"The military training hall is a place for veterans to pass on their knowledge blah blah blah allowing the recruitment of elite troops and giving all lesser sword infantry a bonus to valour.

VALOUR + 1"

Sorry if I'm overexplaining, just making a point about clarity. It's only mildly annoying and can be very useful.

Mongol build tree
I'm not sure how you are planning to deal with the Mongols Wes, but one thing I would like to see is their build tree simplified by barring them from constructing buildings which are of no use to them, since they have a limited selection of units with very similar (perhaps should be made even simpler and similar) build requirements.

That's all for now.

EEUURAAH.

[NagatsukaShumi]

I'd like to see the Mongols having the ability to build Yurts (The tents).

[Hamburglar]

Okay Wes a lot of the ideas make sense now but.......

In the "New Idea" area for the Mongols:

Months ago I suggested a bunch of changes to the Mongols to make them more Mongol-like - I think you put a bunch of them in back before VI. Just thinking maybe we should continue this. These changes were:

1.Lower the support cost by A LOT for all Mongol Units.

Why? Because the Mongols controlled much of Asia during this time and it can be assumed that they use a lot of those lands to support their troops that are moving into Europe at the time.

2. Lower the build requirements for Mongol troops.

Why? So they can actually build some stuff. Also, like Yelper said, dont let them build advanced things they don't need.

3. Give them a few siege weapons in the starting lineup.

Why? If someone has a Citadel or Fortress in Khazar in 1230, the Mongols are gonna have a REALLY hard time busting into Europe.

4. Give them the Viking Raid bonus. I don't know if this is possible, but I think it would fit well with the Mongol smash and burn philosophy, plus it will help with their money problems.

------------

Anyway, back to the troops:

Thanks for considering giving the English Urban Militia. I am just of the opinion that SOME historical accuracy NEEDS to be balanced for gameplay reasons (like your explanation of why you keep the Danes as "Vikings"). I'm afraid that the English AI will get pretty steamrolled if they dont have any infantry besides spearmen and peasants. They can get Highland Clansmen, IF they get Scotland, which the AI often has a hard time doing, especially moreso if we make Scotland a true faction with a King that's gonna pump out sons to help defend the realm. I do think Militia Sergeants aren't too out of line. They're a good "kill the spears" type of unit and they aren't too overpowered.


Another issue: You didn't really address halberds at all, along with pikes. Where are they gonna be?

As for Men At Arms - I know they weren't VERY common, but I think maybe you should just make them decently expensive like knights are. Every Catholic country had the capacity to field Feudal Men At Arms, they should jsut be more "difficult" for the English to field or something.



Skirmishers - Thanks for considering my ideas on Infantry Skirmishers. It's just that every time I fight a battle I consider enemy skirmishers as troops worse than peasants because all they do is die. Slav Javs have really hurt the Eastern armies IMO.


HRE - I still think killing their morale is a bit too much. The HRE has a hard enough time surviving as it is and it seems like their neighbors have actually been strengthened, which will only hurt them more. Lowering their troops morale permanently I think is too harsh of a measure. Their troops shouldn't be "intrinsic cowards". They have low loyalty already and they really aren't much of a powerhouse at all. I've been playing this game nonstop since it came out and I've barely ever seen the HRE succeed in becoming one of the Uber-Factions.



And if we do this to HRE, could we possibly do it to Italy as well? Because if we're playing the historical reality game then we have to understand that Italy is pretty much only existing in the games imagination. The Holy Roman Emperor was at least "in name" in charge of Germany, but Italy wasn't even considered any sort of conglomeration at all.




Other stuff:

How many new factions are you really gonna add to fill up the rebel territories? Is every territory going to be its own separate faction or will some of them be united together. What're their tech trees gonna be like?



Dismounting Units: Is it possible to make it so every horse unit can dismount in open battle? It just seems weird that some can and some can't for no real reason. My Teutonic Knights should be able to dismount just like my Chivalric Knights, but they can't in the game.




All in all, you explained a lot of your reasons pretty well, but I still think FMAA should be available to most countries for at least an "expense", and not as mercs, but real troops, even requiring the "Royal" buildings like Knights to build.

[Hamburglar]

I just read the topic about historical armies and found a lot interesting, but the problem again is that it seems lots of armies really relied on skirmishing type units, and the AI sucks with them.


Even many of the archer units are utterly horrible, if not for their stats, but for the fact that the AI doesn't know how to use them. I can always charge into them because they only seem to fight hand to hand if they have to, even if they're a "hybrid" unit.



I propose splitting a lot of these hybrid units up. For example, Mongol Warriors should be split into Mongol Foot Archers and Mongol Swordsmen or whatever, because the Mongol infantry dies WAY too easily sicne they decide to skirmish around all the time. Jannissary Infantry should lose their bows for this reason as well because the Jannisarry Archer seems to be enough for them missilewise.


Also: Not sure if you mentioned it, but I think since Hobilars are messed with the regular "Horseman" unit should be available across the board. I think every faction had a crappy quality "guy on a horse" type of troop.

[Yelping Godzilla]

AAAAARGH >_<

I just lost a HUGE post :sob:

I&#39;m going to try and sum it up, editing it in bit by bit to avoid the same problem.

:sigh:

Firstly, this is partially in response to Hamburglar.

Mongols

I propose that two versions of the Mongols be created. One version is playable and has units with slightly lowered upkeep and unit cost, as well as lower build requirements and removal of pointless buildings. This version is considered fair and balanced. The other version is non playable, the AI Horde version. In this version the mongol units have greatly reduced upkeep and build cost. The build cost reduction means tens of thousands of mongols turn up when they appear in high, a true horde. Additionally, with the low upkeep, this vast army does not cripple the mongol economy. On top of this, the Mongol units have even lower build requirements. Say a fort for mongol warriors, a bowyer and horse farm for mongol horse archers and a royal court and horse farm for mongol heavy cav. I implemented these changes, as well as making horse farms available without 20% farmland and the horde, when they appeared, behaved exactly as they should. The initial wave smashed right through, even attacking France and when they began to be depleted, they were able to build hordes of replacements in almost any province. It really is the only way to get a proper AI golden horde working.

I&#39;d also suggest a spcial siege unit exclusive to the mongols. A mongol mangonel, requiring only a level one siege building (historically constructed by enslaved european engineers - the mongols were fiendishly smart in war), don&#39;t allow them any other siege unit.

Militia for English

Historically, very dubious. I think it&#39;s worth trying the mod both ways though, with and without the UM and, in late, possibly MS. I&#39;d rather not see them in for the English, but historical concessions must be made, I agree. So test and see.

HRE

They have a balanced unit list and everyone&#39;s basic units are pre-expansion cowards, so I don&#39;t think it will hurt them so much. Besides, even if the HRE are weak in standard MTW, this mod will change things quite radically, so there&#39;s no way to tell at the moment if they will need to be let off the hook. One big problem might be that the HRE have too many poor quality generals, so they never offset the morale bonus with leadership. However the election system does tend to give them a chance at a stronger royal family I believe.

Italy

I think Wes is dividing it into two factions, the Tuscans and the Venetians. If he doesn&#39;t, I agree about the morale drop as with the HRE. Italy, even the north, simply wasn&#39;t unified.

Small factions

I&#39;m really looking forward to both helping create these (with suggestions, of course ;] ) and playing them. I assume we&#39;ll have Scotland, Ireland, Lithuania and the original Novgorod (as well as the new medmod Kievans) etc. One suggestion I want to make right now is that they have weaker than normal royal bodyguard units (although unique and historically as accurate as possible), to avoid their royal family alone saving their one province from a growing true faction under the AI.

Dismounting units

Some units shouldn&#39;t be allowed to dismount historically, as they never, ever fought on foot, for various reasons. However if we look at history, more units should be able to than can in standard MTW.

On the other hand, from a gameplay point of view, I think there should be barely any dismounting at all. This is because the AI cannot do it. At all. Instead, I think in the case of unique dismounters (like chiv knights to chiv foot knights) the foot version should be buildable (depending on faction/territory restrictions) but at an elevated cost. I think for example the English should be allowed to build dismounted norman knights and later dismounted Gascon etc. While not strictly historically accurate, this makes more sense gameplay wise and goes some way to removing the infantry problems in the English lineup.

Both considered, I&#39;m pretty much anti all dismounting, just as I&#39;m anti most non build mercenaries (happy to see a new system added here Wes)

FMAA

Same as Urban Militia. Historically dubious, but worth trying both options out.

Pike and Halberd

Generic Pikemen should be a basic unit available in all provinces from Late. To represent their lack of training etc, they should have lower stats than in standard MTW, also making them distinct from the specific factional pike units, which are presumably well trained, such as swiss pike, German LS pike etc. As for halberds, I think CA were pretty much right with the description of function, although I don&#39;t know about their usage in the period.

The end.

I have my hopes up about this mod. Oh yes. But is it wise?

EEUURAAH.

[Pablo Sanchez]

It might not be unreasonable to keep MAA as mercenary troops, either of the hireable or buildable variety.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Yelping Godzilla @ July 13 2003,16:31)]I&#39;m really looking forward to both helping create these (with suggestions, of course ;] ) and playing them. I assume we&#39;ll have Scotland, Ireland, Lithuania and the original Novgorod (as well as the new medmod Kievans) etc.

I don&#39;t know about Ireland. Historically speaking they weren&#39;t very active (about the only time they did something of wide importance in the medieval eras was the Scotti conquest of North Britain). If we include the Irish, then why not the Norwegians, or Swedes, or Portugese?

[Yelping Godzilla]

Ah but they /could/ have been, if they had been united under an aggressive leader. A lot of MTW is about &#39;what if?&#39; scenarios. I&#39;m not saying they should be in there from the start of High or Late, but possibly in Early they might have done something if properly led.

I think Sweden and Norway are probably going to be controlled by the Danes from the start. Might depend on period though. Just so the AI can actually do something as them.

And yes, why not the portugese? Turning rebel factions into minor powers is what Wes is talking about, so portugal seems like a good candidate.

EEUURAAH.

[Hakonarson]

Good work

Militia as done in MTW are nonsense, as are both the CMAA and FMAA.

As you pointed out - militia generally means "town militia", and invariably means slightly more disciplined but often less enthusiastic versions of country troops.

They MIGHT be armed with halberds or other pole weapons, but more likely with spear or crossbow.

"Men-at-arms" is a term that came about when non-knights became rich enough to afford a knightly panalopy, and so were required to serve "as knights" by property laws. Sometimes they served mainly dismonuted - as with the English. ALL Knights are but not all men-at-arms are knights.

Mongol siege equipment was provided by Chinese engineers - not European ones. So was most of their infantry - basically disciplined spearmen and crossbowmen.

Tuscany wasn&#39;t a faction in Italy - Genoa, Naples, Milan, Venice, Florence were factions.....

Pikemen were not universal - outside Switzerland they started being recruited in Germany right at the end of this period, but the Landsknechtes proper didn&#39;t appear until a generation or 2 after it. Small numbers were also raised in Italy, but appart from them the Low Countries were virtually the only place that had them, and anyone else using them had to hire mercenaries.

So IMO thy should be province specific to Flanders, and available as random mercenaries.

Galloglas - they are a fairly late unit as someone pointed out, and lasted well into the renaissance period, eventually succumbing to or becoming musketeers as the preferred mercenaries. However early on the Irish made a lot of use of "Ostmen" - these were essentially Vikings from the Scot&#39;s Isles & Hebrides - descendants of Vikings & the natives & pretty warlike still. Early Galloglas IMO probably simulates these chaps.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Mongol siege equipment did benefit from enslaved european engineers. At the fall of Kiev I know that although pretty much eveyone else was killed those with useful knowledge were just enslaved.

I thought in Late factions had started to levy their own pikemen, but I don&#39;t know that for sure. I think it would make sense in terms of gameplay, if not historically, to have a basic generic pike unit.

As I said before I think CA got mixed up between Galloglaich and Gael Gaedhil, which were the mixed children of Irish and Ostmen, armed in a similar way to Ostmen (in turn the same as norsemen - VC carls).

EEUURAAH.

[Hamburglar]

One good pro for adding the Irish as a faction is that its going to be easy.


Viking Invasion gave us names, faces, flags, and units. We just have to decide what units can go in and throw them in there.


Maybe make Khazar its own country? Then we can have the Khazar Royal Cavalry unit be its Royal Bodyguard unit. I&#39;ve never actually seen this troop in combat since its rebel only.



For the English: I just had a thought - were the Huscarle type units still in use during the Early Age? It seems to me that its a possibility and maybe England should get them instead of some other infantry.


As for footknights, I support making them buildable since the AI can build them too. And they were definitely VERY common in at least the Late Era. From what I read it was a rarity for English knights to fight on horseback on the "defense" once the longbow came into wide use.




I like your Mongol ideas, but I think they should start out with a couple of those Mangonels just in case someone builds up Khazar a lot. If there&#39;s a Citadel the Mongols will probably die. All you need to do is kill the Khan and then the whole faction will turn to rebels. Pretty easy to kill the Khan if he&#39;s using his head as a battering ram.

And Mongols should be able to have definite "different" foot units. Chinese Spearmen would be a good unit, as well as a good "non-hybrid" archer unit.

I just really think the AI does horrible with most of the hybrid units. Horse units are okay because they can skirmish away quite easily but when the AI tries to run away with foot units they just end up dying.





Crusader Units:

I think some Crusader Units should be buildable in certain areas. Maybe Templars in the Holy Land, Hospitallers on Rhodes and Malta (I think), and Teutonics in Prussia and Pomerania. They should be expensive but they should be there. Maybe make Catholic rebellions in those territories feature a lot of these guys.

[Lancer6969]

English---should include the Huscarles...they already dont have all the units that they did during the Medieval Times. they should have access to all the Crusader units, but later on in the game.

All the crusader units should be available....maybe also make all other factions have access to trainable units that CA made rebelous.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Huscarles in the English armed forces are basically unheard of after the conquest. The vast majority of them died in 1066 and they were never continued afterward. A lot of them joined the VG.

Don&#39;t think they&#39;d fit gameplay wise either.

Could be wrong though.

EEUURAAH.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Hamburglar @ July 14 2003,10:17)]Crusader Units:

I think some Crusader Units should be buildable in certain areas. Maybe Templars in the Holy Land, Hospitallers on Rhodes and Malta (I think), and Teutonics in Prussia and Pomerania. They should be expensive but they should be there. Maybe make Catholic rebellions in those territories feature a lot of these guys.

The Hospitaller base on Malta falls outside the MTW period, and it doesn&#39;t exactly make sense to make them buildable on Rhodes, either, unless we make the Knights of Saint John their own faction in the Late era.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Put them in the holy land, as with Templars. They were less numerous, but they were there. I know that the holy orders appeared elsewhere, like Templar in Greece, but for simplicity&#39;s sake, I&#39;d say have Hospitaller and Templar only buildable in outremer.

EEUURAAH.