Balanced armies

[Sir Chauncy]

I just have to say this.
I know this is a game and everything but the whole point of having an empire is that more often than not two armies facing each other were not equal, even in equipment terms. This happens quite often in the single player game, but it still doesn't mean that the smaller army would be destroyed. I take the battle of Agincort(!?!) as an example, outnumbered by about 2000 troups tired wet and wanting t go home Henry kicked ass and anhiliated the french army and only lost 400 men.
This is also a good time to complain about peoples attitudes to the 'defending' player in MP. Why would you leave a hilly position when you didn't have to? I know it doesn't make a really great, fun game but this is war, and people do die. Some great general chap said once: Terrain is worth an extra army.
Why squander it?
As a way around this you could go around the various maps and give the defending player a smaller amount of Koku if they are going to sit on a hill or you could have a new game type in that there is no defender, only attackers. This seems far more sensible to me than complaining that some people sit on the top of a hill and are difficult to shift, or should, the defending player come out of the hills to fight, comended for having a 'fair' fight.

[Erado San]

Yes, there is something to say about that. You could go to extremes, and then the Battle of the Isthus River might well be the best example, when Alexander's 30.000 defeated Darius' 1.000.000.

But that's real life, and this is a game. When I go on the internet to play Shogun, I want to have fun. Now in every game there's a defender and an attacker, so when you join you simply have to face it that you might have to climb the hill.

Someone who has just started to play the game online perhaps should start defenfing, as he will have a hard time until he learns the tricks a bit. And some people will never get the tactics right, so I won't blame them really.

The problem is thos people that do nothing but picking a defendable map with a nice hill. And there's also too many of them. At one stage I had a sequence of 3 battles where I was confronted with bluddy campers, and then it's no fun anymore. If you can play this game a bit, then what's the fun of sitting on a hill and slaughtering people? Especially if you find yourself on the receiving end too often, you quickly lose interest, and that's a shame.

[Kraellin]

it might be interesting to have an option for all players that they could pick to be attacker or defender regardless of what the other team picked. if you picked defender you might only be allowed certain units or less koku or something and if you picked attacker you might have different units or a bonus koku or something. you could do the same thing if it was a river map or castle map. might be interesting.

the likelyhood of it happening in this game is almost null though...maybe for Medieval.

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[Khan7]

More koku for attackers is a long-overdue feature, IMO. It's pretty obvious and is the standard in wargames.

Oh well, it may be too late though. Seems like it would be somewhat easy to implement, however.

Until then, just try and keep within a circle of honorable opponents. I guess. I haven't played online in quite a while.

Matt

[Obake]

What I don't understand is why someone who is "defending" automatically assumes the posture of a turtle pulling into it's shell waiting for the "attacker" to show up.

I'll be the first to admit that I've been as guilty of it as some in the past, but even on those rare occasions now where I am a defender, I prefer a much more... shall we say, agressive defense.

I think that the best thing that could happen would be for the "attacker" and "defender" labels to be removed completely and then there would only be a left-side team and a right side team. If this were to happen, I would be willing to bet huge sums of money that newbies who didn't know which was which, would be far more likely to be agressive than to sit back on their heels like all of the new and existing turtles do.

The ability to vary koku by side would be VERY welcome. It's available in custom, too bad we didn't get it for online. A flat rate differential between the two like we had with 1.01 won't work either as players on fair maps are penalized for the atrocities committed by the turtles!

Oh well, guess I'll just keep attacking on balanced maps in friendly games so I don't have to deal with the 5 minutes on Kaga crowd (and yes I know that the minimum time was bumped to 10!).

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Obake

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

[BakaGaijin]

I'm 100% with Obake on this. It's not like Daimyo met on the battlefield and discussed who would take which side:

Quote "Okay, I'm gonna defend this one."
"No, this map has that big hill *I* want to defend!"
"Hey, screw you, Shingen! I'm defending!"
*fist-fight breaks out*[/QUOTE]

Really, once the battle is met, the attacker/defender question is determined by posture only. It's possible for someone who is "attacking" in a strategic sense (invading enemy territory) to play a defensive posture. In fact, it's preferred because of its tactical soundness (defence is the strong position under almost all circumstances). The online game should not make an attacker/defender distinction. Timer games should either be called as draws when time runs out, or else given to the player who was awarded the most "honor" by the post-game stats (it would be nice to know how these values are derived, since they seem to be only roughly related to kills). Obviously, this would not stop camping, as some would prefer a draw to a loss, but it would be better than rewarding llamas for playing like turtles.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[barocca]

Sir Chauncy
your history seems to be slightly muddled,
the French outnumbered the English by over 4 to 1,
not a simple 2000 majority in numbers,
but a whopping 20,000 !!!

Check Encyclopedia's, especially Encarta.


Many here have seen a single army of 16 units destroy 2 complete armies and mangle a third on Totomi
- so it is possible to hold against overwhelming numbers in STW - You just need to have the right mix of units and deploy and employ them proficiently.
and i'm not talking about lots of guns or monks.


Sadly i think the option for differing koku values will not be given to us,

Obakes 'aggressive' stance as defender has taken many by suprise...

Campers can be beaten, given a good balanced mix, and a little bit of luck...creating the luck, now thats the awkward part,
fog helps 8)
i looove attacking a camper in heavy fog...

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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon

[Kocmoc]

well, we cant give the attacker more koku or any advances, or we will have a unbalanced system again.

look at fair maps, what would happen if the attaker got advances?

no, its quite easy, the most guys play in friendly all maps in comp they look that they have at least a little chance.

rigth, this is a game, so we can choose wich
battle we play
and if i dont want to climb this hill i dont play this guys with his "nice map"....

im mostly attacker, so i dont know how defending works
and if im defender i attack as well...

this is my view of fairplay and fun.

koc

[BakaGaijin]

Defence is the strong position, but attack is the position of VICTORY!



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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Gothmog]

Erado San:

Wondering if you can provide me the link or the like for the troop count of the Battle of the Isthus River. Darius had 1,000,000? Talking about a million? That's like, the whole population of his kingdom?

I think those "historical" figures are usually largely exagerated, especially when written by someone on the victor's side.

I remember that Chinese history books sometimes mentioned those atrocious casualties during the campaigns during Chinese warlord period (2000 years before the Japanese Sengoku Jidai). For example, it's said that 400,000 men of a clan were executed after losing a major campaign. Which was simply fairy tale, for the whole population of the entire China at that time couldn't have exceeded 20 million. (divide that by 10, that's about the population of those major kindoms, and out of 2 millions, only 1 million were men, and only half a million were able to walk to begin with --- say between 14 and 50 ---, and that's about the number of the "men who got executed", you got the idea).

[Erado San]

Well, the 1.000.000 has been specified by a number of contemporary resources. I agree that half of them were still farming their camels, a quarter was still trying to get out of the way and 10% more was under cover as fig salesmen.

Still leaves 150.000 then.

It was bound to be many. Even Greek sources claim they were so heavily outnumbered that many of Alex's generals wanted to get the heck out of there. I'll try to find an online source tomorrow.

[Ryuzoji Shingen]

Here's something to chew on:

I have been reading an ancient Chinese book (Ming dynasty) called "100 Unorthodox Strategies". In it, the book defines attacking and defending extremely well. It says:

"When one knows the enemy, he attacks. When one knows himself, he defends. When one knows both, he is victorious."

My point is this. Newbies should take to the offensive and get their butt smeared all over the field. It's a learning experience. At the same time, they should defend often, learning the intricacies of the game and the tactics employed. Always defending means you suck at attacking...

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For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly

Tsukahara Bokuden

[Sir Chauncy]

Bugger, I missed a zero off the number of troops the french had! It is a simple mistake to make.

[hamstar]

what about making a new system in which you can choose how much more money ur enemy should have if you can defend
for example in a 5000 koku game player A says :
if i defend i will only need 4000 koku
and then player B can say :
if i defend i will only need 3750 koku
and so on

till one player says :" ok u defend u stupid dickhead !"
hope you understand that because my english is a bit rusty

[Vanya]

Alas... 'tis noble in spirit, but doomed to failure. That is why they never allowed this in MP. If the host could dictate the koku his opponent would have, then y'all would be facing the ignominious 'Host/Attacker 5000 koku vs Defender with 100 koku' cheat... same as the 5 minute timer tactic, I suppose... only with an economic twist. And 5000 koku is timid at best... they might actually disguise it as 99999 vs 5000 koku to make it look on the surface like you have a chance by demonstrating that they will 'allow' you to get a full army...
I would say that for any such scheme to work, the MOST you would be able to penalize a defender would be 10% of attacker's koku. Anything more is openning up the door to abuse, which will inevitably spoil the game for everybody. Equal koku is the only way both sides are truly equal. The stance, in the end, is irrelevant (except for 'survive the siege' games )

So... if all youz claim to love attacking so much, then why complain when the newbies defend? You still have the chance to do your assaults -- as you always have. Thus, this seems to be a mute point.



[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 12-03-2001).]

[Vanya]

GAH!

[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 12-03-2001).]

[BakaGaijin]

Vanya: Simple answer is I don't complain. Nor do I when they kick my butt.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Chaguhun Khan]

I've never been a camper. I just don't get how you can just sit there and not get into the action. I'm usually the attacker if I can help it.

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[hamstar]

vanya i'm sorry but i think u misunderstood what i wanted ( perhaps my explanation was not soo good )

the host should not choose his opponents koku
but there should be a new window in which the 2 players arrange who is defending and who is attacking
so the host can only choose how much money the attacker will get ( for example a 5000 koku game)
and then the 2 players can both try to undercut each other in order to be the defender
then you can decide how much it is worth to you to be the defender (this wont be much in totomi but in other maps it could work)

[Vanya]

LOL Technically, you can do that now... that is, if you 'trust' the opponent to not spend more than they promised too... but how can you verify they did not actually spend the full 5000 they were alotted until AFTER the battle has concluded? As I say... this is all academic without some means of enforcement... and that will only come from the host defining what the defender can spend apriori. So the haggling will have to take place beforehand...

[Chaguhun Khan]

I say simply get down to it. If you're really a good general, you'll beat the opponent even if they do cheat. So lets stop whining and simply improve our strategies.

Chagu the Hun

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Yagyu Jubei]

LOL
So it's back to the "camper" issue!
IMHO.....if it is one on one and the defender sits on a hill, it isn't camping....it's defending. IF it's a 3v3 or something like that and one player sits on his hill and won't help his m8's..that is camping.
As far as the issue of attacking and defending goes....it is true that not every time a Taisho was sent to attack he would find the advantageous field....perhaps his intelligence was late and he arrived to find a strong enemy encamped in his hills. He would have no choice but to attack to get the enemy out of his lands. This is an issue in STW. One that I doubt will be fixed.
The balance of armies is also an issue. ie:
Sun Tzu advises against attacking an army unless you can surround it! having like 3 times as many warriors as the defenders.
Personally, I vary between attacking and defending....hills or flat...depending on my opponent. I also try to only play friendly games.....Shoggy honor pts mean nothing to me.
Sometimes the surprise of attacking their attack is the best defence...One of the best forestalling techniques in the martial arts is to attack the ops attack at the "a" of attack.
Other times I prefer to let them come to me...I am in a good position and would be foolish to run out to my death so my op could have fun.
As attacker, when I encounter a hill I strive to get higher! To flank....to make them move...it is possible..I have won many a battle vs defenders in strong positions of height and cover of trees....
don't complain....fight and die
that is the samurai spirit

[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-03-2001).]

[Chaguhun Khan]

I fully agree and I'm not even a Samurai!

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[hamstar]

My thought was that this system is not built on trust.
Before you can choose your side you have go through these undecuting window where it is chosen how much koku the defender gets( the players have to undercut each other as i said).
Then when the defender actually chooses his units he won't have the originally 5000 koku but only the 4000 koku (or whatever he chose) to spend.So he can't spend more than that 4000 koku.

I know this requires a bit reprogramming but I still thinks (it seems like I'm the only one) that this is a quite good idea.

Alternatively I think that i would be a good idea to abolish the defender and attacker and just rename them in side A and side B.
If u played with timer on it would be a draw when it expires.

[RageFury]

At the battle of isthus riveri was under the impression that it was 500,000 trained and heavily armed persian troops, and greek mercenaries or rebels, under the command of Darius. Alexander had 30,000 troops consisting of combined armies of most of the city states of greece, his famous companion cavalry and cavalry from thessaly.

In my opinion the best example of terrain being used to the defender advantage its gotta be the defence of Thermopylae pass by leonidas of Sparta. when Xerxes led the invasion of Greece with approx 100,000 men Leonida held the pass at Thermopylae for several days with merely 300 (his personal honour guard). This held up the army long enough for greece to form and army to fight the persians. Nice

-Dave

[Sir Chauncy]

Ooooh. I would really love to know where you people get this information about past battles, Ancient history and history of warfare is a real thirst for me and I love love to have a link about it if you could.

[tootee]

I really like the way battles are fought in the clan tourney that is now running. The modifiers do wonder to really "balance" the odds for both sides, and the battles are more interesting for both the defenders and attackers, no matter which maps are played on... and the campaign really make us (those involved) play some seldom-played map, which I didn't realise they are so fun until I played on them (like Nagato, Chikuzen, Hoki..)

Hopefully TW2 will have features similar the the way the clan campaign is now played, i.e. option for map modifier, etc.

--tootee aka goldfish

[EuroSan]

Why not add a lobby window like in Custom battle... there you can put the koku for defend and attack diffrent..So no programing is really needed just include that to online lobby(next patch maybe) if you want to choice like that..

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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[This message has been edited by EuroSan (edited 12-04-2001).]

[shingenmitch2]

About being outnumbered and winning -- I've read extensively on this (particularly Col. Dupuy). In all instances were the smaller # of troops win-- they had a MUCH higher combat value per man and other battlefield multipliers working for them. In other words, even outnumbered, they were a stronger force. (German Panzer division vs. several Soviet Corps etc., Alexander's Companion Cav. were far superior to Darius's cavalry).

That is why less MHC (45) is equal or better than 60 of any Japanese unit. (less in numbers, but much more powerful per man)

A typical combat scenario says you need 3:1 ratio of numbers (all other things being equal--i.e. Troop quality, training, equipment) to successfully defeat a defender -- defense is THAT much of a battlefield multiplier in real life (In STW I don't think the defender is getting THAT much of a benefit, but they do get some bonuses--being uphill, etc.)

That being said. If someone picks defense (it IS an option) then in STW they should be able to "camp." It is the benefit of defense. I like that the attacker LOSES if the timer runs out (assuming enough time was given!!!!) because it FORCES one person to make a move. If everyone was attacker they both could potentially sit there with no reprocussion to their win/loss stats. I think you would find MORE campers in that instance.

Agressive defensive is fun, but shouldn't be imposed. If I'm attacking a 'camper' that can be very satisfying challenge.

That said, in competetive games it is nice to have things equal. So perhaps lessening the defender's Koku a bit to offset his POTENTIAL (not definite) advantage of location.

[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[shingenmitch2]

Quote Originally posted by Sir Chauncy:
Ooooh. I would really love to know where you people get this information about past battles, Ancient history and history of warfare is a real thirst for me and I love love to have a link about it if you could.[/QUOTE]


Great stuff was written (rather technical, but extremely important) by Col. S. Dupuy for the US military to help them model combat. Of particular interest might be his books "Numbers, Predictions and War," "Attrition" and "Great Battles on the Eastern Front" all examine the combat factors that lead to victory or defeat.

If you want specifically Ancient history -- one of the best is Connolly "Greece and Rome at War" A nice spectrum of Classical Greece, Helenistic Greece, Republican & Imperial Roman fighting.

Also great "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry is a MUST.

[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 12-04-2001).]