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Thread: Getting a feel for history...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    I've played a lot of TW-Med and there've been Mongol invasions, but, this was my first time actually facing the Horde.

    As Byzantium things had rolled along nicely. The program even announced that I could declare victory (60% conquered) but I had a few things I wanted to do yet.

    Anyway, the Mongols invaded and I faced them with a top notch general (8 stars, expert defender, utterly fearless) and 1500 troops of various types, including some new arbalesters. I'd faced many an army with much less and felt confident that with five arbalests and four Trebizond, some on line, some in reserve, that I'd teach the uncultured Mongols a lesson. Well, a lesson WAS learned....

    There were a lot of Mongols, I knew that, but I'd never imagined almost thirteen thousand Still, my confidence was unshaken. The field of battle was a flat plain (Khazar) with some wooded areas. My battle line was drawn up with a small woods on my left. The line was made up of 3 spearmen, 3 Byz infantry, and 3 Varangian units, with one depleted (42) Varangian unit, one spear, and a Steppe cav in reserve for the line. With only one Steppe cav, one Allagion (sp?) cav, and the commander's Khataphractoi I was weak in horse but that weakness had never before been demonstrated to me.

    The Mongols arrived, many cavalry, archers, steppemen, heavies, and a few foot, as well. They were daunted by the line and played into my hands (so it seemed) by standing at range for a archery duel. My arbalests slew and slew. My catapult gained 2 valor for perfomance of duty. I had my losses but they seemed not too great. The Great Khan, himself, led the Horde and I told my arbalesters, "Kill that man". His 40 companions fell like leaves in fall and, in accordance with my orders, soon fell the Khan, too.

    "The Battle is won" This thought came to me. It had always been so before. The Mongols advanced against my line
    and were thrown back. Pursuit was given by both foot and horse. Hundreds were slain by my valiants. Yet.... as the pursuit lengthened, the horizon showed more Mongols would soon join battle. The Mongols had NOT broken. The line was recalled, depleted arbalesters were dismissed and reinforcements called upon. The next group of Mongols would be dashed quickly

    And thus began the lesson. Indeed, the Mongol heavies and steppemen broke upon the metal wall of the Byzantine line. When they came, they were beaten, every time. Yet, they came, and they came, and, always, they came with archers, on horses. Nothing could be done with these My few horse were savaged if they ventured far from the protection of the line, but, there was little else to be done. My last pursuit with infantry demonstrated, with the loss of two units, that to venture too far was death to men on foot.

    My archers did their duty, but, though they killed hundreds, the Mongols had thousands. Ere long the arrows were spent, the horses were spent, and I would face the longest battle I'd ever engaged.

    It was time for new strategies. The small wooded plot beckoned with salvation. The line was withdrawn INTO the woods, a line no longer. The defense would be a giant 'U' and the Mongols must bring their horses into the trees, where we would fight at advantage. And, thus it went, hour after hour. Mongol archers sent clouds of arrows and, despite the dense woods, some would eventually find a mark.

    Byzantines died, one after another, in a rain not of water. The heavies would come and were thrown back. The Steppemen would advance and be routed. A watchful eye saw that no pursuit was permitted. When the enemy fled, the line was recovered. And, always, the rain of arrows poured down.

    Sometimes the press was full, with battle on the entire line. Sometimes, the Horde tried to bash through against a single unit. Throughout, the Mongol rain fell. The line, if it may be called that, became a clump of spears here, 3 dozen Varangians there, scattered remainders of units, all of high, bravely earned, valor.

    The Mongols would taunt the line, riding up close enough to clash, then retreat. Over and over they dragged a unit in pursuit and, over and over, I recalled them to the line.

    Watch the line Husband endurance Recall Recall Mongols behind

    They pressured everywhere and their losses were replaced in a never-ending line of reinforcements. After a few hours, I cursed whenever the horizon showed yet MORE Mongols were coming. And, it always did. I was learning to hate the Mongols. I was learning to fear the Mongols.

    I recalled a battle in history, Crassus' last, I think, in which Parthian horse archers picked apart and, finally, destroyed a Roman army. I now knew how that could be.

    Did I win? Yes, after a marathon lasting an entire evening and night, I won.... on time limit. The desperate battles near the end ate up the handfuls of men in most of the units. Three Byz infantry, a reserve. 1 Steppe cavalry, sacrificed for a tiny respite from the never-ending rain of arrows.

    The Mongols lost over four thousand dead. My losses were almost eleven hundred.

    Few of these were archers/arbalesters, who, save for the last one, were sent from battle when depleted. My battle line at the end consisted of a little over 150 troops in 7 units, and only nine Khataphract cavalry. Three units, two spear and a arbalest, held over 80 of the total. One outstanding unit of Varangian foot, with 23 left standing, had an astounding 750+ kills

    This is victory, yes, but beyond that, it was a grand lesson. If not for the trees, the battle would have been not just disastrous in losses, but, annihilation. Dread the Horde



    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  2. #2
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Deja vu, I almost forgot the horror. My luck was a bunch of extremely tough Khataphracts, but in the end also those woods.

    That was in MTW, I bet it's much harder in VI now the arrows are improved.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  3. #3
    Member Member jLan's Avatar
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    I once tried the Mongol's tactic with an army of all Turcopoles.. worked quite well actually, though i learned to dread mounted sergeants.
    --Lan

  4. #4
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Very nice post. I think the time limit also helped the costly victory ? I fought the Mongols as Egyptians. I withdrew from Khazar, not becuse I did not have manpower but because I wanted them to meet them on home ground, in the desert. I left only a naptha unit in Khazar, and withdrew it into the castle. I withdrew the remaining troops all the way down to Syria and Rum. Maintaining an 8,000 - 10,000 strong garrison in Rum and Trebizond, I left only about 1,600 troops in Syria, thus giving the Mongols an opening at which to strike. Here is the standard formation I used, which I called the defensive U. The outer line is held by Saracen Infantry, arbalesters (can be susbtituted by Nizaris or Desert Archers) in the center with catapults to the rear. A couple of Bedouin or Saharan Cavalry can be used to fill gaps and attack any MHC that may open a breach. This army also has a support/reinforcement force of about 6 units. The general in this screenshot is Salahuddin IIRC. The Mongols could not fight in the desert and served as live combat training for the Egyptian troops. Once the Mongols had depleted their forces foolishly in Syria, year after year, and rejected repeated offers of a ceasefire, the Egyptian counter offensive pushed them back into Khazar where they were allowed to maintain only one province, in the hopes that they could be future allies or simply a buffer between Egypt's northern frontier and Russia, meanwhile Egyptian forces redirected their efforts to Germany, raiding and destroying infrastructure in retaliation for a typically misplaced Crusader attack on Constantinople.





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  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    Seljuk....

    The time limit was my only hope for victory because the Horde WOULD NOT BREAK Some of their units would retreat, but, they always came back. It took at least 50% losses before they'd withdraw a unit.

    The cav archers would shoot their last arrow and then they, too, would attack the line, hand to hand.

    The few times when I forced their entire army to run, there would always be the damned horse archers, retreating, but not fleeing. Their army always rallied behind these and the battle was begun again.

    The last six hours, or so, of the battle saw me frustrated, sitting in the woods under fire, with no option to do otherwise. Most of my losses (save the error in pursuit that killed most of two foot units) were due to archery. I'd lose one or two men to a clash and watch as a dozen more died under fire I could not answer.

    The Mongol tactic of taunting was very cleverly done. They'd draw a unit out where they could shoot better. When the opportunity to do damage offered itself, I'd attack a unit that got too close. Still, they'd have to move out to where they'd be shot. I'd kill 20 and lose a few, half to archers. It was a terrific battle but so long and trying that, by the end, I was glad it was over. Fighting with tattered remains of former units got truly desperate, with Mongols 'in the wire' and units with not even 10 men assigned to recover the line. The dwindling command unit of Khataphracts was the fire brigade, thrown in to save the tiny units who were continually used to plug holes.



    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  6. #6

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    I once had to fight them with nearly no horses, but with crossbowmen and Halberdiers, Chiv Sergeants and C. Men at Arms...


    Retreating to the woods and being the Defender helps a lot. Sometimes I lured them in, and they got slaughtered. I takes time, time acceleration and patience, but while staying in the woods and firing out into the open you can break the mongols. After losing hundreds of units, I lost most of my units, too, they ran away.

    I really like them, because they are by far the best the AI can send against you in Singleplayer, they are actually an interesting challenge.

  7. #7
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    I really enjoy playing against the GH too. I have never played with a time limit so I am glad that I have not been in that situation yet. Well Done Shai. How is the strategy game playing out ? Is there an opportunity for counter attack ?
    If you remember me from M:TW days add me on Steam, do mention your org name.

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    Member Member Crash's Avatar
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    It's interesting to me how well the game reflected real-life in SeljukSinan's defense of Syria. One of the Mongols few defeats came at the hands of Mamluks in Syria, the same year that the Polish and Hungarian armies were crushed by the GH. The Mamluk armies fought a very similar style to the Mongols, and were not fooled by the Mongol tactics. They probably outnumbered the smaller than average Mongol army, so all things being equal, they prevailed in the end after a close hard fought battle.

    I haven't tried VI yet, due to the Age 56 bug, but I like the fact the arrows improved because the Mongol horse archers should be more effective than they are in MTW. They, after all, had the best bows in the world at the time. I look forward to playing VI once the patch is available.

    Congratulations ShaiHulud, on a magnificent defense of Khazar, I doubt that I would have done so well.

  9. #9
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    did you save the replay?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    Soly...

    I had every intention of saving the re-play. I reminded myself several times to do so. But, after a very long night, all on the one battle, I was so relieved when the battle ended that I clicked right past, having forgotten my several reminders

    The time limit alone was 315 minutes. I conducted many pauses, thus lengthening the battle further (it's VERY difficult arranging troops in forest). It was very dissapointing when I realized I'd forgotten to save it.

    Seljuk...

    Khazar was the only province invaded. With their defeat the other 8000+ Mongols had no retreat and died to a man.

    As for my victory, if I had not killed the Khan in the first wave, I doubt I would have won. He was a 4-star General and the loss in valor and morale (which was not at all demonstrable in battle&#33 surely was decisive. I can't imagine how my exhausted troops would have held up against Mongol Heavies at their best, in the later stages.
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  11. #11
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    I have moved this to the story telling/ PBM forum
    ShadesWolf
    The Original HHHHHOWLLLLLLLLLLLLER

    Im a Wolves fan, get me out of here......


  12. #12

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    Yes the Mamluks were more aware than most of Mongol tactics because the Mamluks themselves grew from a slave population, the majority of which had been sold to the Sultan of Egypt after their capture by Batu's armies. You could say they sort of learned the strategies then used them to good effect later on. Let's not forget how massively outnumbered Ked Bukha was at Ain Jalut though and even then it was no rout

    ......Orda

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