fave dream army

[Lord_PH]

tell us your fave army: faction, the units and strategies involved...

unlimited funding

mine is:
Polish
4 (pavise) arbalester
5 swiss armoured pikemen
4 polish retainers
2 chilvaric men-at-arms
1 arquebuisers or woodsmen

the swiss pikemen is the backbone of the army. the retainers are all around calvary. the rest is pretty explanatory

go SAPs

[The_Emperor]

Is this Pre-Patch/VI, because the SAPs back then could be trained by any faction (now you can only get them with Switzerland).

My Army lineup is...
English
1 Pavise Arb
2 Longbow (To add more Rapid fire to the Archers against AI, but sometimes they are swapped with more PA's, especially in Multiplayer)
4 Billmen (Sometimes replaced with Chiv Sgts)
4 Chiv Man At Arms
2 Chiv Knights
3 Royal Knights

[Darkchampion]

as byzantine

5 varangian guard
3 pav arbalester
4 byz cavalry (or steppe heavies)
4 kats

pav arbs and the varangian guards go in the center while 2 units of byz cavalry and kats go towards each flank (byz cav harass and kats only engage if the byz cav are chased by other cav).

I keep harassing their line until a weakness appears or they commit to a flank, then the 5 varangian sweep into the center while the kats/byz cav flank. Of course this tactic is vulnerable to a knight heavy western army though the varangians give knights a fight even in a head on confrontation (they also pwn SAPs ).

[Cheetah]

16 chivalric knights

[Tony]

6 Janissary Infantry
6 Janissary Heavy Infantry
4 Ghoulam Bodyguards

Go Janissary

[Hajji Giray I]

As Egyptians
8 Ghulam Bodyguards
8 Mamluk Cavalry trained in Egypt

One comment is, The_Emperor, I got a billmen unit as mercenaries once and in the very first battle sent them up against urban militia ( ) and they all died. That's not the kind of unit I'd want in a dream army...

[Red Harvest]

Why do people like Pav. Arbs so much? They are too slow for offense, and too well armoured for any warm climates. Regular arbalesters are much more effective and don't tire as quickly. Even on defense their slow movement is a liability.

If you have to withdraw your army, the arbs might make it, the Pavs? No way

[Oaty]

single player 16 horse archers ( : then when I run out of cavalry (due to spending all the arrows my crappy guys come on)

[jones21]

an all 4v 4w 4d peasents

[Darkchampion]

pav arbs are very useful against ranged attackers as their description states and can easily sustain a continued bombardment from archers without much damage. Great against an enemy reliant on ranged attackers.

Play a few multi games and you will see what I mean as half the battles are pav arb duels .

[Monk]

For Sp:

Aragonese Early

3 or 4 F MAA
2 Archers
2 Jinetts
1 Spanish Jav
2 spearmen

Turkish Early-High

4 Saracen Inf
3 Turcoman Cav
1 Armenian Heavy Cav (atleast)
2 Horse Archers
1 Murabitan(sp?) Inf

Byzantine

1 Kata
4 Byz Inf
3 Var Guards
2 Byz Cav
2 Bulgarian Brigands
Extra cav optional

English, Early

3 or 4 FMAA
3 Longbowman
2 Sherwood foresters (gotta love Vi )
3 Billards

as for Mp, i havnt played it since vi came out

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Hajji Giray I @ Aug. 08 2003,02:43)]One comment is, The_Emperor, I got a billmen unit as mercenaries once and in the very first battle sent them up against urban militia ( ) and they all died. That's not the kind of unit I'd want in a dream army...

Billmen are Primarily an Anti-Armoured Knight Unit. Check the unit stats, they gain a Bonus attacking Cavalry and VS armored Troops.

I would Rather Send Chiv Men at Arms or Cav against Militia who are good anti-armour (Remember Billmen are Armoured) Also they fare badly in the desert in their armour (well you were playing as Egyptian).

Billmen Trained in Mercia get +1 Valor (combine that with a Master Spearmaker and you get +2 Valor, which is enough to produce quite a nasty shock on the Battlefield)

Use them right and you'll see how good they can be in both attack and defence.

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (Darkchampion @ Aug. 08 2003,04:32)]pav arbs are very useful against ranged attackers as their description states and can easily sustain a continued bombardment from archers without much damage. Great against an enemy reliant on ranged attackers.

Play a few multi games and you will see what I mean as half the battles are pav arb duels .

Who in their right mind would attack armoured troops with archers? Archers are for killing light units and are pretty much unnecessary and ineffective after Early.

Other than static defense vs. AI, you might be able to use Pavs in flat, mild climate, set piece multi battles. Of course, that is one reason I don't have much interest in multi player. The game engine is set up to favor camping.

[Sjakihata]

8x battlefield ninjas
8x kensai

[Duraz_asks]

early :german: 3 arch 5 cav 4 swabs 2 f maa 2 ms

high :polish: 1 chiv night 4 polish retainers 3 pavs 4 chiv maa 2 f maa 2 ms

late ^^^^^^^^^ same as high

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Aug. 08 2003,12:05)]

Quote[/b] (Darkchampion @ Aug. 08 2003,04:32)]pav arbs are very useful against ranged attackers as their description states and can easily sustain a continued bombardment from archers without much damage. Great against an enemy reliant on ranged attackers.

Play a few multi games and you will see what I mean as half the battles are pav arb duels .

Who in their right mind would attack armoured troops with archers? Archers are for killing light units and are pretty much unnecessary and ineffective after Early.

Other than static defense vs. AI, you might be able to use Pavs in flat, mild climate, set piece multi battles. Of course, that is one reason I don't have much interest in multi player. The game engine is set up to favor camping.

Dark Champion, IMHO, is correct here. I think that Red Harvest has made several assumptions, not the least of which is that MP is al flat, mild, set piece, with campers.

One of my favorite situations to find myself in is where the opposition has run low on arrows. Creep up and start using those slow firing pavs (well protected by polearms, of course) on their armored troops. In SP and MP this will cause the defender to attack rather than face attrition.

I am probably not in my right mind. Regardless, the tactic of using pav arbs against armor works when done right. Once I had a bridge crossing where 56 Pavs killed 140 enemy, mostly heavy inf and cav.

For High, the toughest, best balanced army I can find consists of the Byz with:

V3 or better Kat or Byz Cav (General)
4 V1 or better Pronoiai
3 A3 Pavs
4 V4 Byz Inf
4 V2 W1 Varangian Guard

This works great for SP and MP, everywhere except summer rocky desert (where it does ok, for a while).

For Late, try Aragonese/Spanish with lancers, jinetes, CMAA, pavs. Get a Knights of Santiago unit for a Gen, since they are very tough but not impetious (meaning they wont rush into the thick of things and get killed, lowering morale)

ichi

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Aug. 09 2003,09:49)]Dark Champion, IMHO, is correct here. I think that Red Harvest has made several assumptions, not the least of which is that MP is al flat, mild, set piece, with campers.

One of my favorite situations to find myself in is where the opposition has run low on arrows. Creep up and start using those slow firing pavs (well protected by polearms, of course) on their armored troops. In SP and MP this will cause the defender to attack rather than face attrition.

I am probably not in my right mind. Regardless, the tactic of using pav arbs against armor works when done right. Once I had a bridge crossing where 56 Pavs killed 140 enemy, mostly heavy inf and cav.


ichi

You missed the point entirely. The situation you described is camping...you force them to come to you because they have crappy archer units against armour. Let's take another hypothetical: I march my unit of regular arbs out to a point to shoot up your armoured units...you march your pavs out to try to force me to trade volley's with no shielding. What do I do? My guys are faster so I get set up first. I fire a few volleys into your face as you slowly march, get a few kills. As soon as the pavs halt I stop and withdraw a few feet out of range, then repeat. This is using mobility to my advantage. I can move AND shoot, while your Pavs can't (because I withdraw before they fire.) You will have to bring the Pavs into striking range of my cav or melee units, or bring your whole army up to support them. As your shock troops and cav move in I'll switch targets with my arbs and work on the greatest threats while you try to pick off my arbs... I just dictated the engagement. All else being equal, I'll win. My army is more rested and I will have inflicted more casualties pre-engagement. I will also have drawn you to a bit of terrain of my choosing.

Of course the pavs work well vs. armour in the static position you described. They are perfect for bridge crossings as you also described. I knew that. What they can't do effectively is march around or fight in the heat. They are TOO SLOW and tire easily. Reminds me of the very slow Kataphraktoi (they are tough, but their lack of speed is a big liability since they kill slowly and very rarely can flank or sneak through a hole.)

Again, if someone is trying to use arrows against armour, they have already handicapped themselves... Arrows against armour is low hit percentage. I don't build any archers after Early except for a few specialty things like Genoese sailors, Trebizonds or Brigands for use in the desert. You can shoot all your ammo for a handful of kills. Both types of arbalesters do better than archers because they are armour piercing, have longer range, and their accuracy is high. Sure, the Pav arbs should have no trouble against archers, neither do regular arbs. Unlike Pav arbs, regular arbs have more utility, they can be used well on defense AND offense.

It is the MP guys that seem to favor Pavs and that goes to the nature of MP. In SP you need versatility and mobility (unless the army is strictly a defensive garrison.) Pavs are lacking in those regards.

[|OCS|Virus]

my fav set-up is

egyptian
4 nubian spearmen
4 sacren spearmen
4 chivalric swordsmen
4 hashisin {usualy replaced by either horse archers or desert archers}

this is a pretty good army =D

[someone]

this is my dream army

4 JHI
4 vG
1-2 hobilars or steppesteppe
2-3 crusade knights (doesnt matter which of them)
2 mongol cav archers (or 4 but then i would skip the trebz or Jinettes)
2 trebizond archers or 2 jinettes

and then i would prey and hope not to have to fight in the desert

[Duraz_asks]

redharvest unfortunatly this isnt fairy land and that tactic doesnt work.. why u ask.. because regardless of if the arbs have pavs or not they still take a long time to load..ya u might get 2 or 3 shots off first if ur lucky but then thats when the pavs come in handy..so now uve probably killed 2 or 3 men so its down to a 60 on 58< with pavs... whos gonna win?...and in the process of retreating then running up and shooting again HEllo that gives the armored ones a chance to get a cheap shot off

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (Duraz_asks @ Aug. 10 2003,21:34)]redharvest unfortunatly this isnt fairy land and that tactic doesnt work.. why u ask.. because regardless of if the arbs have pavs or not they still take a long time to load..ya u might get 2 or 3 shots off first if ur lucky but then thats when the pavs come in handy..so now uve probably killed 2 or 3 men so its down to a 60 on 58< with pavs... whos gonna win?...and in the process of retreating then running up and shooting again HEllo that gives the armored ones a chance to get a cheap shot off

I&#39;m not in fairy land. You just had to go marching about with your slow heavily armoured pavs while I can shoot and withdraw...and you had to advance them to a point where they are either vulnerable to other units, or you had to advance your whole army...to terrain of my choosing. At that point I won&#39;t be shooting at the Pavs anymore anyway, because I&#39;ll target higher threat units and engage your whole force while it is at a disadvantage. You will have to withdraw those Pavs...so they won&#39;t be doing much shooting. Back to fairy land for you.

[ichi]

Red Harvest:

In a 1000 MP games no one has ever tried the tactic that you describe against me, so I really don&#39;t know if it would work. I doubt it though, because you make many, many assumptions.

You assume that you can move, shoot, and move away without taking any hits. I won&#39;t go so far as to call it fairyland, but that isn&#39;t how it seems to work.

You assume that at some point my pavs (or my entire army) is so close that you can shoot my armored units, but I can&#39;t hit your guys (or only your non-pav arbs). Again, this just isn&#39;t realistic.

You talk about the terrain of my choosing. In other words, you camp. Yes, we all know that sitting on top of a steep slope gives you the advantage. That is a slope advantage, not an advantage of pav vs non pav.

In a couple dozen SP campaigns, the AI has never tried it on me. I&#39;ll give it a try on the AI next time.

Quote[/b] ]Other than static defense vs. AI, you might be able to use Pavs in flat, mild climate, set piece multi battles. Of course, that is one reason I don&#39;t have much interest in multi player. The game engine is set up to favor camping.

What point did I miss? I say again that A) I can use Pavs in many other situations (MP and SP) and B) you should try MP cause a lot of games are played on gentle slopes (not flat, as you state, nor very steep, cause most everyone recognizes that gives the defender an unfair advantage).

Dark Champion made the point that pav arbs are good against ranged attackers, and I think he&#39;s right. Not just in static positions. Maybe I play too much MP, but pavs are essential.

ichi

[Eastside Character]

as Byzantines

4 byzantine cavalary
2 kataphraktoi
4 varangian guard
6 byzantine infantry

btw byzantine cavalary is my favourite unit - first it acts like horse archers after that it destroys weakened enemy in melee combat

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Aug. 12 2003,01:34)]In a 1000 MP games no one has ever tried the tactic that you describe against me, so I really don&#39;t know if it would work. I doubt it though, because you make many, many assumptions.

You assume that you can move, shoot, and move away without taking any hits. I won&#39;t go so far as to call it fairyland, but that isn&#39;t how it seems to work.

You assume that at some point my pavs (or my entire army) is so close that you can shoot my armored units, but I can&#39;t hit your guys (or only your non-pav arbs). Again, this just isn&#39;t realistic.

You talk about the terrain of my choosing. In other words, you camp. Yes, we all know that sitting on top of a steep slope gives you the advantage. That is a slope advantage, not an advantage of pav vs non pav.

With arbs vs. pav arbs, you can shoot and run away several times without taking hits. The load time for both is the same, but the movement time is not. Once you get the pavs moving you have an advantage. So if you get your arb to better ground faster you will force the pav to move. You use your mobility to force the pavs to move. For example with a very slight height advantage the arb will have better range and effectiveness...who do you think is going to reach that position first and who will have to advance under fire?

This is trickier on truly flat ground, but the pavs slow speed can again be used against it. Example: say we have 4 units each of pavs and arbs. With the arbs I can flank the pavs so that I get 2 vs. 1 on each end of the line at extreme range (with your other two units out of range.) I get off perhaps two volleys while you position your other pavs to end the mismatch. You will get off your first volley with the end unit a bit sooner than I will since I have to wait for you to reach my range, but not much sooner. I&#39;m not going to stay put when your second unit achieves position. I move away as soon as it halts. It never gets off a shot. Pavs won&#39;t move much without tiring. Arbs can move farther this way. I can do this sort ot thing for quite awhile. No doubt we both would reposition other units to support our respective troops (or I would try to crush the center pavs. that are now splayed forward or you would sweep away my flankers.) However, with equal range and greater mobility and less tiring I can work your pavs.

I don&#39;t think many folks appreciate the morale effects that occur as your units tire, or take casualties. Have you ever noticed how slow your ranged units shoot when they are tired or morale is low?

In my other example you mention, I&#39;m not assuming that your Pavs won&#39;t be able to shoot my other units as I draw them in. In fact, I&#39;ll gladly let you change targets at the same time as me, because I will have on inferior ground and I won&#39;t be camping, I&#39;ll be charging. Your pavs will become useless for a time and withdraw or be killed. While my arbs will be setting on a little rise firing into your central army mass.

I tested some slight slopes with the AI last night with me as attacker. I came down to nearly the AI&#39;s level with two units of arbs to draw the AI Pavs forward. Then I shot them up as they tried to close range. Before they could fire I withdrew a bit, and repeated. They lost 100 out of 120 in a few volleys. At that point I halted and focused fire on a single unit to kill it&#39;s morale and effectiveness. The AI withdrew it and turned on the other to destroy it. Yes, some of this is due to the AI.

One reason I favor arbs over pavs is that I must use mobility to beat the AI with its +2 morale advantage on expert. Pavs slow my whole army down and the AI will capitalize on this. An army is only as fast as its slowest unit. I can&#39;t afford to have my ranged units tire quickly or slow everyone down.

[DemonArchangel]

8 Mongol Mangudai or Byzantine Thematic Cataphracts (modded)
(Extraordinary force according to Master Sun, Also the Cataphracts are just like Kataphraktoi but less armor, faster and cheaper)

8 Varangian Heavy Infantry or German Landsknecht Swordsmen (Modded)

(Ordinary Force according to Master Sun)

[Lehesu]

16 of my newly created Sword Brethren for the Polish (along with Polish Crusades )

[ichi]

I jmust noticed that this thread about dream armies has been hijacked to a discussion about arbs.

I also came to the conclusion that Red is going to think what Red is going to think. I think I understand what he is saying, but I dont agree. In every scenario he assumes certain things (e.g., that arbs can shoot several times before pavs arbs can fire), and forgets others (e.g., that if he flanks my army with pavs I will pick them off with cav). I (and everyone else) will keep buying pavs in SP and using them in MP.

*Hands thread back to rightful owner*

ichi

[Lord_PH]

this is turning into a pavs/arbs battle of what is overall better...

my say is that arbs are overall better in complex situations and pavs are only good against their own kin and their mobility sux, not saying that pav arbs are bad...they are good on themselves...

please keep this debate shorter and acutally concentrate on what YOUR fav army of 16 units would be

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Aug. 13 2003,00:40)]In every scenario he assumes certain things (e.g., that arbs can shoot several times before pavs arbs can fire), and forgets others (e.g., that if he flanks my army with pavs I will pick them off with cav). I (and everyone else) will keep buying pavs in SP and using them in MP.

Wrong again, Ichi. As I&#39;ve said you can try to counter the flank moves, but the extra mobility the arbs have dictates tactics for both of us. Your flank example I already addressed (in that we would both be likely to support our units.) I&#39;ll have units close enough to support before you can overrun. In fact, I&#39;ll have held them just far enough back that you might think you can overrun the arbs. Result, you just fell into a trap, congratulations You advance your cav within range, I fire a volley (or two) and run back to my advancing flank support (cav or anti-cav). You can charge in and get slaughtered, or withdraw (and take some rounds in the back if you didn&#39;t react quickly.) Your single end unit of pavs gets off a volley or two into my arbs as I change targes, but I get to shoot up the units I&#39;m really after. Thank you for providing the perfect illustration of mobility.

Sorry, Lord Ph, I did not intend to hijack the thread, but I did enjoy the discussion. As I&#39;ve said, Pavs can be quite valuable, but they only really shine in more static positions and cooler climates (multi player comes to mind...) As for my favorite army, it is going to differ with every faction, the opposing faction, the period, type of map, offense or defense, and climate.

I&#39;m no novice at this sort of work. I had the same kind of discussions when I was playing Civil War Generals II. Many times the whole community was convinced certain battles were an easy win for one side, I insisted several were certain wins for the other if played properly by that side (and regardless of what the opponent did.) I played all takers in these scenarios and won every one, not in minor victories--all were scored majors. Before long I was at the top of all the tourney seeds. After proving my points I sought out the most even battles I could find (and would play either side). When I quit playing I had lost two battles (both minors). The most fun battles were the ones I lost--once I failed to detect a flanking move in the woods, the other was what appeared to be a suicidal rush by my opponent...but he had enough men that my men fatigued. I finished playing after 150+ wins and a few draws. Each battle often took 1 or 2 evenings...some took 3.

[ichi]

Wow, if only I had known who I was up against.


LOL. I was going to let this go, but that last post sort of requires a response.

Arbs have the same rate of fire, pavs or no, so your assertions that you can shoot several times before the pavs fire back is no realistic.

I&#39;m not going to rush my cav into a trap. At some point our armies will get close enough to each other that we are in range. When that happens, pavs have the advantage over arbs. Any advantage you might have is the result of terrain, not mobility.

If you flank I counter. I never thought I would hear myself say this, but . .

Come online and lets play. Simply repeating what has been said is pointless.

Look at my last post. I tried to agree to disagree and give this thread back to the rightful topic. Let&#39;s do that.

ichi