Shogun comparisons

[Mori Zennousha]

Konnichiwa all...

i have just finished reading James Clavell's masterpiece, Shogun, and have a few comparisons i'd like to run by some of you... i knew that the novel was "historical fiction", but did not realize how closely the key events and characters followed history... now that i've finished the book, and have learned a bit about Sengoku Jidai, i feel pretty confident in relating the following Shogun characters to their "real-life" counterparts, but any corrections/input would be more than welcome:

Toranaga = Tokugawa Ieyasu
Ishido = Ishida Mitsunari
Kiyama = Kobayakawa Hideaka (?)
Onoshi = Otani Yoshitsugu
Nakamura (the Taiko) = Toyotomi Hideyoshi
Yaemon (the Heir) = Toyotomi Hideyori (?)
Goroda = Oda Nobunga (?)
Akechi Jinsai (Ju-san Kubo) = Akechi Mitsunhide
John Blackthorne (Anjin-san) = Will Adams (?)

needless to say, i'm not certain about the ones with question marks, but from what i've read to this point, i think i'm pretty close... but please, correct me if i'm wrong about any of the above...

one more thing... does anyone know if there was a figure that matches the character Toda Buntaro Mariko-san? she's an amazing character in the book, and i was wondering if, like some of the more important male characters, hers wasn't inspired by the life of an actual person...

and finally, i had heard from a few people that the ending of the book was disappointing... i can understand why that has been said, although i must say that, now that i see the relation to actual history, the "rest of the story" is told in the history books; Clavell just chose not to tell that part again, i suppose... to me, it was clear with the mention of Sekigahara how the book would end, and what happens after that... Sekigahara was also the final clue that helped me put all the pieces together for the comparisons above...

if you have not read Shogun, and have an interest in this period, i can't recommend it highly enough... it is a bit long, but a surprisingly easy read (very hard to put down at many points along the way)... check it out; i think you will be glad you did...

Sayonara,
Z
*bows*

[Nowake]

You're right about each and everyone, except for Kyama, of whom I'm not sure.

Anyway, read it for 7-8 times when a bit younger (I'm turning 18 next week ) and found it fascinating, but it has a very ... occidental way of pointing out the problems. A virtue or a vice, that is? A virtue, as the book shows everything through the eyes of Adams. I wonder if Clavell read this man's journal? Try Eiji Yoshikawa, anyway, you'll see things differently.

[Mori Zennousha]

Konnichiwa pr Fire...

thanks for the comments... i'm curious; are you referring to Musashi, the novel about the life of Miyamoto Musashi?... from what i can tell, it's Eiji Yoshikawa's best-known work, and one i've seen referenced many times (not to mention Musashi's own great work, The Book of Five Rings, which is referenced even in the translation of The Art of War i currently possess)... i'm sure Yoshikawa wrote many other works, but everything seems to be pointing in the direction of Musashi... please let me know if there is something else i should look into...

as for Kiyama, the pieces just seem to fit for him... at Sekigahara, Kobayakawa Hideaka's troops did not engage in battle at first... when goaded into battle by Ishida, his troops switched sides and fell on Otani Yoshitsugu's forces, which, along with other defections, allowed Ieyasu to rule the day, and soon after, all of Japan... this seems to fit perfectly with the scenario unfolding towards the end of Shogun, where the rivalry between Kiyama and Onoshi was about to explode... if the story continued through Sekigahara, i have a feeling that what happened in history would have been closely related in Clavell's re-telling, with a very similar situation developing for Kiyama, Onoshi and Ishido... but again, i'm not certain; it just seems to fit...

thanks again for your comments,
Z
*bows*

[TosaInu]

Eiji Yoshikawa also wrote Taiko. I don't know how accurate it is (it's a novel) but it's a nice read.

[Mori Zennousha]

Konnichiwa, TosaInu-sama...

interesting... Taiko, eh? the only experience i have with that term is from Shogun, and as i related above, i believe the character known in that novel as "the Taiko" was directly modeled after Toyotomi Hideyoshi... is Eiji Yoshikawa's Taiko similar in this way? historical accuracy, while important, is not critical (Clavell certainly took some latitude in his telling), but i would like to know if it is about some of the figures i'm becoming more familiar with... please let me know if you have any further insights on this...

thanks for the input,
Z
*bows*

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa Mori Zennousha san,

Toyotomi Hideyoshi is the main character, you'll also learn about Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu and others. All named accordingly.

It's the 'story' of Hideyoshis life. You'll learn about some important happenings: 1560 battle of Okehazama (Imagawa Yoshimoto 25,000 vs Oda 3,000). Imagawas march to Kyoto (and becoming shogun) was stopped by Nobunaga. 1582 Oda Nobunaga killed by his own general Akechi Mitsuhide in a night attack. It's interesting to read how Toyotomi ended the siege of Moris Takamatsu so he could revenge Oda in the battle of Yamazaki.

[TenkiSoratoti]

I have read James Clavell's version of 'The Art of War', (Oddly enough, my dad used to know Clavell) quite good, he has some good definitions in their. 'Tis a pitty Shogun TW could not live up to every characterisic of Warfare in the book The MP element has adapted warfare that never existed in Japan.


TS

[frogbeastegg]

I can't recommend Eiji Yoshikawa's books highly enough. I had to import then from the USA to Britain at about £30 each including postage, fortunately they are worth every penny

While reading Taiko I noticed a lot of similarities to Shogun, the section where Hideyoshi was building a castle in the face of the enemy was very familiar from one of my old games. Likewise the Takeda's massive and persistent attacks, the cutthroat diplomacy, the scramble to get an army together when you are attacked at a bad time (the start of the game and those occasions where you just lost a lot of men in a tough battle), and the impact of guns on the battlefield. The way at several points in the book the Oda ended up fighting just about everyone at once was horribly familiar from my first Oda game, Oda Nobunaga coped much better than I did (I survived and kept my lands but had to spend years recovering and gained nothing except a couple of rank stars, Nobunaga survived, thrived and prospered from the situation). The book sent shivers down my spine at some points, so close was the resemblance to my Shogun experiences.

Musashi is also excellent although it bears less resemblance to the Shogun world. Don't let this put you off, I actually preferred this book to Taiko. The book of the five rings has joined Shogun on my 'to read' list, unfortunately they are both proving elusive.

[TenkiSoratoti]

Maybe CA used Taiko

TS

[Nowake]

Konnichi wa Mori Zenousha san,

As Tosa Inu don said, the book I was refering to is Taiko, and in my opinion it is a much better read than Musashi, which gives a narrower horizont over Ieyasu's Japan.


At a closer look, you'll observe that different social classes are described in every book, and very different points of view are ilustrated. In Taiko you'll gain knowledge of the menthality of peasants, samurai and daymio, while in Musashi you'll get to know the more pitoresque and somewhat vulgar aspect of japanese medieval life, the book being populated with merchants, shugyosha, priests, thugs etc.


So both are instructive and a pleasant read, but in order to understand the difference between Clavell's point of view and the japanese one, Taiko is more than recomended.


And another thing to add, Mori Zenousha san to your list of characters: the real Hosokawa Fujitaka is, in Shogun, Toda Hiro-matsu, or Iron Fist (Tekken in japanese, IIRC)


A question for Tosa Inu don:

I always had a curiosity about a character from Taiko: Hachisuka Koroku. I tried to make a parallel between the characters from Shogun and the ones from Taiko, and of course I tried to identify each and everyone of them. But this I can't find anywhere. Before documenting from real japanese history, I thought that Ishido (Ishida Mitsunari) was Hachisuka Koroku, as in Shogun it is said to have been a ronin and his loyalty to Hideyoshi was undisputed; but then I found out that this one was a noble, so my theory is probably wrong. If you can clear this curiosity for me, I'd apreciate it.

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa pr Fire san,

All I know is that some Hachisukas fought for Oda and Hideyoshi (Hachisuka is a clan). Please visit http://www.samurai-archives.com/ if you like to learn more. I guess you'ld have to ask this question in their forum.

I'm sorry that I can't help you.

[Mori Zennousha]

Konnichiwa, all...

first, i want to thank you all for your additions to this thread... i've gained many insights from you, and have a lot of books on my list now (for the first time in a good long while)... from what i've gathered, i think Taiko will be the first, but we'll see... i've started another book, and need to finish it first...

which leads me to something that, while straying from the topic a bit, i find interesting... the book i've taken up is Dune: House Atreides, by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson... i have read all six of the Dune books by Brian's father, Frank Herbert, many times over, and am a bit embarrassed that it's taken me so long to get around to this... i know the world of Dune inside and out, and have spent many hours finding similarities to human civilization as we know it... what's interesting to me is that, before now, i never had much in the way of eastern ideas to compare and contrast Herbert's feudal system to... now that i do, the similarities are staggering... in reading House Atreides, i'm suddenly finding notions of honour, respect and duty to have much deeper meanings... the feudal set-up in Dune has always seemed too deep to be a take-off of medieval Europe; now i can't help but wonder if, among the many cultures the senior Herbert drew from to create his universe, feudal Japan didn't have an influence as great as any other... now armed with a *developing* understanding of a feudal system other than that taught in Western Civ classes, i must go back at some point and re-read the first six again; who knows what deeper insights can be gleaned with a new way of looking at things?

ok, i apologize for going OT, but i couldn't help it... the paralells were too well-timed to ignore...

TosaInu:
thank you for the extra info... as i said above, i believe Taiko will be my next read... i'm finding these great men in Japanese history to be fascinating people to read about... from what i've read in "The Way of the Daimyo" alone, i can clearly see that this could keep me busy for quite some time... thanks again for your input...

Tenkisoratoti:
interesting... i didn't realize Clavell had done a version of The Art of War... i'll remember that and keep my eyes open for it... thank you...

frogbeastegg:
your desrciption of the similarities to STW is, in itself, a good enough reason to seek Taiko out... if the names hadn't all been different, i may have had a similar experience w/ Shogun... as it was, i was slow in putting things together... still, until just a few months ago, this was all greek to me... learning about this period, these people, has been, and continues to be a fascinating experience... thanks for your input as well...

pr Fire:
now that i've finished Shogun, another point of view is exactly what i need; i'm a firm believer in getting your info from all sources possible... i thoroughly enjoyed Shogun, but by no means think that Clavell's model of the Sengoku period, or his telling of the events of that time, should be the sole source for my understanding... you make some excellent points, and i'll remember them as i go through Taiko, and Musashi after that... and thank you for identifying "Old Iron Fist"; Toda Hiro-matsu was one of my favorite characters (but then, he's kind of written that way, isn't he?... to be someone you're supposed to like)... i'll have to learn more about Hosokawa Fujitaka... thank you...

[Nowake]

I thank you, Tosa Inu don, this is of great help already for such a small matter.



Mori Zennousha san,


I also read Frank Herbert's Dune series, and it was of course an interesting read. But I can't understand your analogy between Dune's universe and eastern cultures. The model for the sardaukar's empire was a mix between caroligians and the byzantine feudal sistem. You have the powerfull lords that plagued both empires, the deity emperor, the menthality.


The blow for the byzantines came from the muslims in the VIIth century. Dune's culture is the muslim one, Dune itself is Arabia Felix. The fedaykin of Muad'Dib is the muslim fedayn (sp?) which is also the arab word for their zealots. They were fremen (free men?&#33 that lived in the wastelands. They were always a powerfull foe for the romans in history (look for some info covering the petreian kindom). Now, the roman prestige was very present in the Mediteranean untill the VIIth century. The barbarians kindoms saw the byzantine emperor as a referee between their disputes, Iustinian tried to recreate pax romana and almost succeded. The trade was still going, and we have syrian trade guilds in Paris, in the same VIIth century; the conections (political, commercial, cultural) were still working. The french monasteries used the egyptian papirus for their documents And above all else, it was the christianism. Before the barbarian invasions, the roman empire was spiritualy divided. Now, the byzantines had a powerfull weapon with which to unite the world behind their banners: the church. The pope was a mere subject (lets remember that several popes were arested and brought to Constantinopole for not following the emperor's word by the book). The arians and monophizites (sp?) were under control. Heraclius manages to defeat the persians. Without the arab djihad, the roman empire would have been slowly, but this time probably forever rebuilt. When the muslims started their campaign, all was lost. The trade between Europe, Africa and Asia was interupted. Rich byzantine (and, first of all, christian) provinces were lost. The arab pirates dominated the seas. With Italy almost lost, the pope was free to seek protection from the western kindoms. Which he did, and he crowned Carol as emperor and entitled him defensor of the christianism (of course, Carol had to accept the popes claims for Church supremacy, thus situations when the emperors would want to interfere in Church decisions were avoided - remember that the byzantine emperor was isapostolos - the last living apostol), thing that would have never been possible in the absence of the djihad. The orthodox and the catholics were bound to be born. The east and the west were forever separated. And all this because of one man: Mahommed. Dune's Muad'Dib. And to prove my theory and in order for you to have a clear view over the V-IX centuries and the impact of Mahommed's djihad read Henry Pirenne's last book (he died shortly after finishing the manuscript) "Carol the Great and Mahommed". The book it's a profound analysis over the post-roman world. All was due for the Byzantine empire to reclaim the roman and christian legacy in Mediterana. The only thing that made this process impossible was the islamism. Mohammed.


I'm sorry, this may seem as too long, but it is harder to express a clear opinion in a foreign language In all that matters, it is a personal point of view.


*Bows

[Mori Zennousha]

Konnichiwa pr Fire...

and thank you again for your thoughts... you seem to be very well informed on a number of cultures; i admire that... but, perhaps for the first time in any of the STW threads, i feel as though i'm "in my element"; for many years, Herbert's universe was my "home away from home"...

so, first let me clarify... i was suggesting that Herbert may have drawn from some of eastern culture to develop his worlds, not that he based them on it... i can not agree with you more, the Fremen, and specifically thier religion, are heavily based on Islamic societies, right down to the Feydakin, as you said... and yes, there are definite similarities between the Emperor, his Sardaukar, and Byzantine... but those are hardly the only models Herbert used... by the time of the Tyrant, in God Emperor of Dune, the ruling gov't has developed into something that has never been seen before in human civilization (it is fiction, after all)... it has elements of Islam, Catholicism, Protestanism, Judaism, and yes, even Buddhism, all mixed into the government/religion... it is a complete and total dictatorship, where all the power truly rests within one individual, one who is both an emperor and a god... by the time of the last book in the original series, Chapterhouse: Dune, there is no prevailing gov't; indeed, everyone is on the run, and the feudal system of old has little meaning... please don't misunderstand; i find your insights to be extremely well thought, and valid in every point you make... i just feel that your scope is a bit too narrow, especially when considering an epic series that covers over 5000 years...

one more quick point... while i certainly agree that there is an undeniable paralell between Mahommed and Muad'Dib, you have to remember that Muad'Dib was also Paul Atreides, a persona that was anything but "Mahommed-like"... i have read opinions that have actually divided his character into three parts: Muad'Dib (Mahommed), Paul Atreides (his "true self"), and The Emperor (Caesar?)... personally, i like to see his character as more of a blended whole, not broken into compartments, but i can see the merits to the arguments...

again, please don't take me the wrong way; i'm not disagreeing with you... to be sure, i'm envious of your knowledge... i do feel, however, that the Dune universe is much more widely based, encompassing many aspects of human civilization... i don't find it unreasonable to think that eastern ideas may have played a part; i don't know that they did, but i don't know that they didn't, either... i do know that Atreides warriors were as dedicated to thier Duke as any samurai was to his liege lord, that both imperial courts share many similarites, and that the military heros of Dune share traits with uncounted legends of our histories; why not Tokugawa Ieyasu, or Toyotomi Hideyoshi?

actually, i believe Brian Herbert is working on or has finished a book called Dreamer of Dune, a biography of his father... perhaps the answers are already spelled out in there; i'd certainly like to find out... at any rate, i thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on this; especially since it's in a foreign language for you... i think you get your ideas across just fine, for what it's worth...

thanks again,
Z
*bows*

[Nowake]

Zennousha-san,

We agree on everything it seems; you see, in your first post, I understood that your analogy between some aspects from Dune and the japanese tradition (and generally eastern cultures) was made as to reveal these as the main characteristics sought by Herbert. So I tried to point out what it seemed to me as the main parallel made by Herbert between Dune and the human civilization. My theory was narrow and somewhat superficial because I was pointing only to the central theme, and I tried to concentrate my thoughts.

I thank you for the kind words, my knowledge is, although, small when compared to other people here, I'm too young, turning 18 tommorow . The little time I took in answering to you gave me great pleasure, believe me, with all the spam around here it is hard to "engage" pleasant debates more often.

I too hope now to read Brian Herbert's book, it must explain his father work better than all the hipothesis people made over the years.

All in all, thank you again, ja mata Zennousha-san.

[TenkiSoratoti]

Too young? Blimey you should know my age... (But on second thoughts) *Sits in corner and sulks*.

Panda.

[Dîn-Heru]

From TogakureOjonin in the Entrance Hall

-----------------------------------------------------------

In the Sword Dojo on August 16th, 2003, Mori Zennousha wrote:

... "i'm sure Yoshikawa wrote many other works, but everything seems to be pointing in the direction of Musashi... please let me know if there is something else i should look into...".

Oh my, do read TAIKO. It is a very detailed, extraordinary readable, and utterly delightful book about the rise of Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

The book follows Hideyoshi's life from a young brat of a boy to his appointment as Kwampaku, or Taiko. Most interesting is the time he spent as a vassal of Oda Nobunaga. Many of the personalities which appear as generals or Daimyo in STW appear in the book. Nobunaga's assassination is covered in detail. The battle between Nobunaga and Imagawa at Okehazama is covered. The annihilation of the Takeda is covered.

It is an outstanding work--I like it better than Musashi (and that is a hard thing for me to say, as I luv Musashi).

I'm pretty sure you can find it at Amazon. It is available (as is Musashi) in a beautiful hardcover version. I'm not sure about a paperback.

Enjoy

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and a second post.
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In the Sword Dojo on August 16th, 2003, Mori Zennousha wrote:

"i have just finished reading James Clavell's masterpiece, Shogun, and have a few comparisons i'd like to run by some of you... i knew that the novel was "historical fiction", but did not realize how closely the key events and characters followed history... now that i've finished the book, and have learned a bit about Sengoku Jidai, i feel pretty confident in relating the following Shogun characters to their "real-life" counterparts, but any corrections/input would be more than welcome:" ...

I own a very interesting book entitled: Learning from Shogun - Japanese History and Western Fantasy - Editor: Henry Smith. It was produced by The Program in Asian Studies, University of California, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, CA, 93106, Copyright 1980 by Henry D. Smith II.

It is (was?) distributed by the Japan Society, 333 East 47th, St. NY, NY 10017

I found this tattered 163-page paperback jewel in a used book store. It provided an extensive analysis of Clavell's Shogun (the book, not the TV mini-series) in comparison to documented historical fact. I highly recommend it, if you can find a copy.

I tend to be a pretty trusting guy (good karma), so if you can't find it and really want to read it, I would loan it to you.

Here are excerpts from the table of contents:

Part I: The Fantasy
1 - James Clavell and the Legend of the British Samurai
2 - Japan, Jewpan, and the Attractions of the Opposite
3 - Shogun as an Introduction to Cross-Cultural Learning

Part II: The History
4 - Blackthorne's England
5 - Trade and Diplomacy in the Era of Shogun
6 - The Struggle for the Shogunate
7 - Hosokawa Gracia: A Model for Mariko

Part III: The Meeting of Cultures
...
11 - Consorts and Courtesans: The Women of Shogun
12 - Raw Fish and a Hot Bath: The Dilemmas of Daily Life

Appendices include:
- Who's who in Shogun
- Glossary
- For Further Reading
- Postscript: The TV Transformation

To clarify some of the Who's Who, I'll quote from the book:

- Akechi Jinsai = Akechi Mitsuhide (Father of Hosokawa Gracia)
- Alvito, Father Martin = Joao Rodrigues S.J.
- Blackthorne, John = William Adams
- Buntaro = Hosokawa Tadaoki (Husband of Gracia)
- dell'Aqua, Father Carlo = Alessandro Valignano, S.J.
- Genjiko, Lady = Asai Ogo(Kogo), wife of Tokugawa Hidetada, later known as Sogen'in.
- Goroda = Oda Nobunaga
- Hiromatsu = Hosokawa Fujitaka
- Ishido Kazunari = Ishida Mitsunari
- Kiyama, Lord = roughly, Konishi Yukinaga, historically not one of the regents
- (Toda) Mariko = Hosokawa Gracia
- Nakamura, the Taisho = Toyotomi Hideyoshi
- Noburo, Toronaga's eldest son = Tokugawa Hideyasu
- Nobunaga, Toronaga's first & favorite son = Tokugawa Nobuyasu
- Ochiba, Lady = Asai ChaCha, Hideyoshi's favorite consort
- Sugiyama, Lord = roughly, Maeda Toshiie, Daimyo of Kaga
- Toronaga, Lord = Tokugawa Ieyasu
- Uraga-noh-Tadamasa = Chijiwa Seizaemon
- Yabu, Kasigi = FICTIONAL
- Yaemon, the heir = Toyotomi Hideyori

Little historical blurbs about these (and many other) Shogun characters are included in this appendix.

I hope this gets to you. I just joined, so I cannot post anywhere but here.

[Nowake]

Thank you, Togakure. Pretty good list, even if we covered much of it before. Most apreciated.