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Thread: Animations in MTW - how, what, where, why and \"lots more\"

  1. #61
    Member Member Fearless's Avatar
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    Let's keep this topic at the top it's important.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Fearless,
    I think Welly is writing this as he confirms
    it to a certain extent.It's kind of a running
    commentry.This will be edited and compiled
    when it's finished but in the mean time
    I think it's best this way.
    The different aspects that are been
    covered here are not documented
    so the quicker people can read and digest
    it the quicker they can get up to
    spec and join in.

    Or do you just mean the non relevent posts
    LK

  3. #63
    Member Member Fearless's Avatar
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    non relevent posts LK

  4. #64
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Here's another one

    I'll be removing all non relevent post
    soon.Like this one

  5. #65
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Guys,

    This thread was intended to allow ALL modders to offer advice/information in this "unit modding" area - read my 1st post in this thread. I am certainly NOT the "be all and end all" of this. I, personally, am only offering contributions to this thread as I "go along" and as I learn other things - as LK quite rightly pointed out in the previous post.

    There are many contributers to this Modding forum who have some knowledge pertaining to unit modding/animations. I am only one such. I would welcome any offerings to this thread from other individuals.

    OK. I am NOT a CA employee. I don't really know how some things work, as I don't have access to the MTW source code. I can only play around, in a trial and error mode, and observe the results of my "playing around". My conclusions may be true or they may be false It all depends on how much "playing around" I choose to perform in certain areas.

    Some things become obvious, other's remain less obvious. I post PART's to this thread when, AND ONLY WHEN, I think I'm right - "think" being the operative word. Even now I'm still changing/correcting/re-wording PARTS (on my PC copy of my contributions to this thread) that I previously posted in this thread.

    The whole intention of this thread was to provide information that could form the basis of a "Guide to Animations" that could be downloadable from The Org.

    I understand some people are awaiting further details but, in the absence of any other contributions, they will just have to wait. I'm also learning things as I go along ... and I won't post another PART until I feel I have ascertained sufficient content to justify posting such info.

    I have many paragraph's for the last 6 PART's already written but am still working on other issues pertaining to these PART's.

    The content of such PART's, as far as I'm concerned, should offer both -

    - a consistent and logical document for "newbies"
    - varied/new content/ideas for "established modders"

    In other words, I will post more PARTS's when, and only when, I am happy with them (and even then they may be subject to change&#33.

    Sorry ... but that's the way it goes.

    regards,
    Wellington

  6. #66
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Welly,
    I think there is enough here to keep
    new commers happy for a while.
    As for people who comprehend this already
    they should get on with implementing
    some of this stuff.
    Until then I think this thread
    will not need new imput.
    Not to say it wont welcome it as is your
    style and ours, but having implemented
    everything here I know what it takes.

    So no need to feel sorry
    like you said ,your not CA,
    but you and the other modders who are
    writing ,or have writen manuals on this forum
    are the next best thing
    You wouldn't catch me doing it,
    it's too hard

    regards,
    LK

  7. #67
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    Wellington, Please don't stop.

    We missing some parts



    fenir

    Hmmm 50 A4 pages of reading material.



    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  8. #68
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    never mind it's ok I found it

    it was in part 5.

    fenir
    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  9. #69
    Creator of the Medmod for M:TW Member WesW's Avatar
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    Hi guys. One thing I noticed. In the textures/men/items section, the 0 or 1 setting is different than what I remembered from the thread here. 0 means that the item will be placed before the man, and 1 means that it will be rendered after, or over, the man.
    This may be exactly what you said, but I remembered it being the reverse, so I just thought I would mention it here.
    Wes Whitaker's Total Modification site:

  10. #70
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Hi WesW,

    That may well be the case. Maybe I got the 0/1 parameters mixed up in the original post. Does'nt really matter - at least people know the purpose of that parameter now

    I'm well aware that some aspects of my contributions to this thread may not be 100% correct. It does'nt matter too much (IMHO). Anyone interested in "Unit Modding" will be able to glean sufficient information from the contents and will quickly realise the occasional mistakes/typo's I've made.

    Obviously, anyone who has ever attempted documenting their thoughts/opinions/knowledge (in any "area") to such an extent that I have attempted in this thread would be aware that such mistakes are inevitable.

    I do have a different version of this writeup (on my PC) that is a little bit different to the content offered in this thread. Fenir has very graciously offered to writeup this "definitive version" as and when I finish it - and my apologies to Fenir for my being a bit slow in this respect.

    The final version WILL be finished. It will be a little different to my content in this thread. It will incorporate ideas/thoughts/corrections/additions that I've gleaned since writing up some of these PARTS. It will include bit's I overlooked (that I've made aware of in other post's/threads subsequent to my writeup of these PART's). It will be as complete as I can make it. It will be downloadable from The Org. It will also most probably, alas ... sigh, also contain mistakes

    Such is life WesW

  11. #71
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    Np wellington,
    take your time, it's xmas after all. Well new years eve here now

    fenir
    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  12. #72
    MTR: AOA project ###### (temp) Member kataphraktoi's Avatar
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    Does anyone know how to make a Kataphraktoi shoot a bow and melee?
    Retired from games altogether!!

    Feudalism TOtal War, non-active member and supporter. Long Live Orthodox Christianity!

  13. #73
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Kataphraktoi
    I don't think it would be possible
    in real life and impossilbe in the game.
    How could you fire a bow and melee at the same time.
    You would need three hands and maybe two heads.
    Is this for a Jason and the Arganots mod.

    I may have misunderstood but I could not resist

    To be honest I'm not sure what you want exactly

    LK

  14. #74
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Welly,
    I,v added the shogun units
    and the spear for the ashi is on the edge of the bif
    and it shows in the game like a giant pencil
    it's annoying while being funny
    while in shogun it looks fine.
    Why is this?

    regards,

    LK

  15. #75
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Feb. 03 2003,04:45)]Welly,
    I,v added the shogun units
    and the spear for the ashi is on the edge of the bif
    and it shows in the game like a giant pencil
    it's annoying while being funny
    while in shogun it looks fine.
    Why is this?

    regards,

    LK
    No idea LK

    E-mail me the Ashi stuff and I'll test it and try to puzzle out what's going wrong.

    At a quick guess I'd suspect the last 2 numbers in the Weapons.txt may be wrong

    Welly

  16. #76
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Thats why I tried many combinations.
    I could get the last number to take effect for the length.
    The first number as 1, 2 or 3 still kept the same width.
    I thought weapons coords might be doing it
    so I gave them another it changed position but not width It's in the
    test_LK_Shogun_mtw_units_v2

    I'll send it later if can't download it

    Thanks

    LK

  17. #77
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    LBA has reminded that barocca may have mentioned this
    before.Maybe he knows why?
    It may have something to do with the image
    being on the edge of the bif and the shading
    but that's just conjecture.

    LK

  18. #78
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    BTW Welly,

    I got the pistol to show when they shoot.
    Well I didn't the computer did
    I used the other shoot images in the bif.
    I am sure beyond doubt that is what they are for.
    As to why CA did not use them
    I just don't know
    I made the gun extra big to make sure I could
    see what was happening.
    I can only see it from the front
    but it's a start.
    They also point the wrong way

    LK

  19. #79
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    LK,

    The Shogun unit Ashiguru weapon is too thick. It's 6 pixels which is not consistent with the width of similar weapons in MTW.

    For Shogun CA started off drawing all weapons on the figure images in the BIF's. This was fine for swords/muskets but they (presumably) hit a problem with long weapons - spears and such like - in that they had no room in the BIF's to represent the image recatangles required for all images/actions/camera-angles with such a large weapon.

    Therefore, for Shogun, CA incorporated a quick 'system' in the engine to position some weapons on the images prior to rendering the figure image on the terrain.

    For MTW CA extended this system to incorporate all weapons for all units, and for shields as well. This had the added advantage of allowing the MTW 'mix and match' for different units. Ok, some units still have weapons drawn on (archers) but this is NOT a throwback to shogun. It's just symtomatic of the fact that a bow is difficult/complicated to represent using either the weapon or shield positioning systems in MTW.

    Therefore the Shogun engine method of positioning (and scaling&#33 weapons is totally different to the MTW system.

    For the Ashi's in MTW redefine the image-rectangle to be half the size (3 or 4 pixels thick). Either half it or skip the 1st and last lines of pixels. The MTW engine should be then be able to cope with this correctly, and it should look more realistic in MTW.

    Welly

  20. #80
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Feb. 04 2003,17:10)]BTW Welly,

    I got the pistol to show when they shoot.
    Well I didn't the computer did
    I used the other shoot images in the bif.
    I am sure beyond doubt that is what they are for.
    As to why CA did not use them
    I just don't know
    I made the gun extra big to make sure I could
    see what was happening.
    I can only see it from the front
    but it's a start.
    They also point the wrong way

    LK
    Hhmmm .. this says something. However, what exactly it says I'm not quite sure

    It would be really nice to have the finished mounted muskets/carbines and pistoliers and have them working correctly.

    Once LMM4v1 is released I want to get back into this area to resolve some of the outstanding problems. At present I have a 'list' of priorities -

    1) The Lords Roman units
    2) Mounted guns (muskets)
    3) Mounted guns (pistoliers) - very different to 2)
    4) musket rests for infantry

    The 2 slinger units I was trying to crack are just too difficult. Pity. I really wanted to incorporate these in MTW as they would have been 'completely different' to any other unit. Problem is it takes too long to change the shield positioning numbers and as the slings are relatively thin it's very difficult to visualise the effect of any changes you've made to those positioning parameters.

    I tried to automate some of the processes involved in weapon/shield positioning via software (remember MUMU&#33. The results were not good. The idea in MUMU was to produce a table of xy-coordinates for the right and left hands of EVERY image in every frame. Then MUMU could position new weapons/shields relative to any units hand position. Problem was twofold -

    1) producing an accurate table of hand positions was a nightmare
    2) knowing the hand positions did'nt necessary solve all of the inherent positioning problems
    3) the positioning of weapons was only partially successful for a few images in a few frames - shields screwed up big time.

    Anyways, LK. Let me know what your priorities are for your new units and I'll get back to this ASAP.

    Welly

  21. #81
    Senior Member Senior Member Lord Krazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 04 2003,17:26)]For the Ashi's in MTW redefine the image-rectangle to be half the size (3 or 4 pixels thick). Either half it or skip the 1st and last lines of pixels. The MTW engine should be then be able to cope with this correctly, and it should look more realistic in MTW.
    In theory only
    I'v tried all that malarchy before I asked you.
    It still looks like a big pencil that's why I'm confused
    I'v tried all possible combinations of coords
    all lines, top line, bottom line, middle line,
    two lines, so far no lines works best

    These peasants have no respect

    In the closet for while I think with these guys.

    Thanks for the confirmation and information

    LK

  22. #82
    Member Member Hendon's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Whats the best Bif reader if you want to make units of your own????




    /ME



    ***LONG LIVE THE EYE***

  23. #83
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Hendon @ Mar. 04 2003,04:07)]Whats the best Bif reader if you want to make units of your own????




    /ME
    The latest version - 2.2a?

  24. #84
    Member Member MR EGG's Avatar
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    Hello Wellington I'm on the scrounge,would it be ok if I use your sheild and weapon placing tool if this is ok I would be greatfull . could you please send it to issywhizzy@aol.com if its ok, thanks.just one more thing I want to make a defence action against cavalry etc for my ECW pikemen, how would this be achieved.

  25. #85
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Mar. 23 2003,20:59)]Hello Wellington I'm on the scrounge,would it be ok if I use your sheild and weapon placing tool if this is ok I would be greatfull . could you please send it to issywhizzy@aol.com if its ok, thanks.just one more thing I want to make a defence action against cavalry etc for my ECW pikemen, how would this be achieved.
    No probs I'll send it you. One thing it ISN'T a weapon positioner - only for shields.

    Whilst it's a lot harder to position shields (as opposed to weapons) by hand - the opposite is true if you have a program to automate it. The reason being for weapons you have to positions EXACTLY corrrect, for shields you have a bit of leeway 9don't have to be pixel-perfect)


    You can't add new actions (and you won't be able to in VI either). However, theres no need. If you unit is attcked by cavalry they will automatically change action to defend themselves (eg - from 'stand' to 'fight&#39. Therefor there is a "defend" action built in to MTW - but we just see it as a fight action.

    For example, when troops are routing and being chased individual figures sometimes stop and fight (and on occasion win). Is'nt this a "defend" action

    Welly

  26. #86
    Member Member MR EGG's Avatar
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    Thanks Wellington I thought this might not be possible

  27. #87
    Member Member Baron von Beer's Avatar
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    me too me too...

    pgrasham@charter.net
    Many people prove that in their lifetime, they have learned much. It is unfortunate that all to often, stupidity was the teacher.

  28. #88
    Member Member RabidMonkey's Avatar
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    This is a fantastic thread All hail Wellington, and i hate to think how long it took to write it all up

    When will more be added as it seems a while since this thread was last updated? (I am NOT complaining because theres no point posting something that isnt finished, i just want to see more of the guide )

  29. #89
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (RabidMonkey @ April 30 2003,05:52)]This is a fantastic thread All hail Wellington, and i hate to think how long it took to write it all up

    When will more be added as it seems a while since this thread was last updated? (I am NOT complaining because theres no point posting something that isnt finished, i just want to see more of the guide )
    Many thanks for your appreciative comments.

    Unfortunately, whilst I have several half-completed additional PARTS on my hard drive (awaiting completion), I doubt whether any of these additional parts will be completed and posted in full in the near future.

    The reason being there are many individuals who can now contribute to this area of MTW modding (LK, The Lords) who thoroughly understand the possibilities and implications - therefore this "area" of MTW modding is generally well covered by modders.

    Ok, I appreciate that's of little consideration to new modders but the fact is that "Unit Modding" is generally well known now (albeit complicated somewhat with the addition of VI) and since writing this thread I moved on to areas that were less well understood.

    However, if you have any specific questions/queries re- Unit modding for either MTW or VI please post them in this thread and either I or others will try to elucidate the area of confusion.

    One final point - the info in this thread pertains to MTW only - NOT VI Therefore, if you have questions please indicate whether you are refering to MTW or the VI expansion.

  30. #90
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Since I made the completely new Uruk-Hai unit I discovered some things.

    On the subject of the different camera angles. There are 8 angles, meaning 360/8=45 degrees difference per angle. Since there's no direct front angle and the angles are all mirrored, you can conclude for the semi-front angle: 45/2=22 degrees (since it's mirrored). This will get you the following angles for making new unit animations: 22, 67, 112 and 157 degrees.

    About the x/y origin that are stated in the first two numbers per line per action in ActionPage\unitname.txt. They should have the value of the difference between the x,y coordinates of the image rectangle and the x,y coordinates of the bottom left of your model most of the time his right foot).

    I hope I'm clear

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