Judeans in Rome: Total War?

[Judean Prince]

Well, as my name suggests, I would be very excited if there were Judeans to play with in R:TW, I was just wondering if anybody has any information concerning this matter, or just your thoughts and ideas about it.

[Marshal Murat]

Well Judeans lived in Jordan area until taken over by the Romans. Under this rule, Jesus was crucified. Then there was the Judean uprisings by Macabedies or something, who defeated the Romans but was killed I belive in the Masseda siege and following battle. But most talk says they might play a minor role, seeing as the game is supposed to end in 1 AD.

[Judean Prince]

Yes Marshal, there were Judeans living in Israel and they had a lot of uprisings, thats why I asked, I thouhgt that because of the so many uprisings, the developers would choose to make them a faction, I heard that the game would be up to at least 100 A.D. also because many historians believe that the struggle of the Jews against the Roman rule, was one of the largest long-lasting wars at that time.

(BTW - The Maccabean uprising was against the Greek rule, some 200 years before the Romans. )

[Shahed]

Shalom and Welcome Aboard

Would be cool, but I would not vouch for too much historical accuracy in RTW. As it's predecessor (MTW) shows, it's more about gaming than historical value.
Btw the Romans did assualt the fortress at Masada if I am not mistaken.


hava nagila hava nagila ha......*dances off into the distance*

hava nagila hava nagila ha......*dances off into the distance again*

[Queen Daenerys I Targaryen]

They're will no doubt be Judeans, but I doubt that they'll be playable.

[Judean Prince]

LOL, SeljukSinan, I'm not sure if what you said was supposed to be a taunt... but thanks anyway, and about Massada, the romans did attack it, but it wasn't in the Maccabean revolt

[Shahed]

No it's not a taunt. I was trying to be funny.

EDIT: Opps I see why you thought so, becuase I wrote the bit about Massada, in between the dance. Actually I wrote that in as an afterthought, an edit like this one. I corrected it now, see above.

Yeah the Romans attacked it, the ramp is still there. I know that since I was at a time building a custom map for MTW, called Massada. I never finished it alas. What century was that in again, please ?

While you are here, can you tell us some good, objective sites on Judaism. I'd be very interested in enhancing my knowledge. I don't know a great deal on the Tora, or in fact much about Judean history either.

I think you are one of the few Israeli members of the org, so another hearty welcome to you.

[Judean Prince]

Oh, ok, I actually had no problem with your Messada comment, it was all of that singing... lol

anyway, I don't remeber the exact year it happened, it happened between 70-80 A.D., it was I believe after the Temple in Jerusalem had already been destroyed, Messada was the last stance against the Romans, and when they saw the Romans starting to climb up, they understood they had no chance, and commited mass suicide.

[Shahed]

Hehe Well what do we know about Judeans in RTW. Is there any official word that Judea will be a seperate faction. It sure should be. I bet they'll put em in a minor faction position.

Then again what do we know about the region at that time and about the military ? Did they have an organised force ?

Sorry for my ignorance. Any info appreciated.

[Judean Prince]

Well, I'll tell you what, I actually got a lot more interested in the Judean war because I began reading this book: The Jewish War, it was written by Josephus Phlavius, who was a Jew born in Jerusalem, his real name was Joseph Ben Matitiahu, anyway, the book was written somewhere between 75-79 A.D., it is the most accurate account of the war and the region to all of its details, what makes it even more unbelievble is the fact that he was actually a soldier in the Judean resistance and he himself tells his story, the thing is, that because the book had gone so many translations, historians arent sure of the original language it was written in, though by many evidence it is widely thought that the language of origin was actually Hebrew I'm reading it in Hebrew, though my version is a translation from the Greek version lol, this book doesnt just gives you an account of how the war was fought, it also gives you basic history, because Josephus was also an historian, it tells about the Greeks and the Maccabeas also, and about all of the royal wars for the crown of Judea between the Jews... from what I understand, nobody had a regular army back then, people would just send a genenral and gather an army, though I'm not really sure about that, anyway, if you are really interested, check the book out.

[rasoforos]

hello Judean Prince . I agree that they should appear , after an uprising perhaps and become a minor faction , it would be cool.
In addition it offers a nice opportunity for a nice easter egg in the game....the famous Judea's People Front ( P.S to the readers : if you dont get it then go rent some monty python films )

[BDC]

Maybe it could be several factions, like the Peoples' front of Judea and Popular Front of Judea? All bitter enemies of course. And if not, maybe a modding oppotunity...

(Sorry if I got the names wrong, ages since I watched it. )

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Aug. 31 2003,15:34)]hello Judean Prince . I agree that they should appear , after an uprising perhaps and become a minor faction , it would be cool.
In addition it offers a nice opportunity for a nice easter egg in the game....the famous Judea's People Front ( P.S to the readers : if you dont get it then go rent some monty python films )

only if theres the popular judeans front.

[Mount Suribachi]

Whilst the Maccabean revolt is the most famous, Judeah was famous for being difficult to suppress. It was the Portugal/Livonia of the Roman World

1 of the many Jewish movements from the period of the Roman Occupation were the Zealots, perhaps the most famous of whom was Judas Iscariot.

Josephus was one of the top historians of the 1st century. He wrote his history mainly to impress the Romans that the Jews weren't just a bunch of rebellious barbarians but actually a cultured, historic people. His history is also one of the top non-biblical sources on Jesus Christ - he basically said that he was a great Rabbi who spoke powerfully, but deceived the people with his tricks and insulted the religious leaders and was put to death for blasphemy. Basically it describes in short what is in the gospels, but from a Jewish point of view. He ended up moving to Rome and became best mates with the Roman Emperor (whose names escapes me right now).

Oh, and Judean Prince, I recommend that you stay away from the Tavern unless you like intense political debate, writing long posts and have a thick skin. I say this because the general consensus there is that Israel/America/Republicans/Christians are resposible for everything that is, ever was or ever will be, wrong with this world. Ever.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Aug. 31 2003,21:52)]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Aug. 31 2003,15:34)]hello Judean Prince . I agree that they should appear , after an uprising perhaps and become a minor faction , it would be cool.
In addition it offers a nice opportunity for a nice easter egg in the game....the famous Judea's People Front ( P.S to the readers : if you dont get it then go rent some monty python films )

only if theres the popular judeans front.

Yep... Splitters

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Aug. 31 2003,15:56)]Oh, and Judean Prince, I recommend that you stay away from the Tavern unless you like intense political debate, writing long posts and have a thick skin. I say this because the general consensus there is that Israel/America/Republicans/Christians are resposible for everything that is, ever was or ever will be, wrong with this world. Ever.

Not bad advice. Still, there are those of us who work tirelessly to educate the ignorant masses.

[bighairyman]

i also think there should be Judeans in RTW, but i think they should be spilt into a couple of factions. you know what, i think every major faction in RTW should be spilt into mini factions(i.e. there are two egpytain factions, and a lot of difference tribes of barbarians).

just a thought

[Shahed]

Quote[/b] (Judean Prince @ Aug. 31 2003,12:36)]Well, I'll tell you what, I actually got a lot more interested in the Judean war because I began reading this book: The Jewish War, it was written by Josephus Phlavius, who was a Jew born in Jerusalem, his real name was Joseph Ben Matitiahu, anyway, the book was written somewhere between 75-79 A.D., it is the most accurate account of the war and the region to all of its details, what makes it even more unbelievble is the fact that he was actually a soldier in the Judean resistance and he himself tells his story, the thing is, that because the book had gone so many translations, historians arent sure of the original language it was written in, though by many evidence it is widely thought that the language of origin was actually Hebrew I'm reading it in Hebrew, though my version is a translation from the Greek version lol, this book doesnt just gives you an account of how the war was fought, it also gives you basic history, because Josephus was also an historian, it tells about the Greeks and the Maccabeas also, and about all of the royal wars for the crown of Judea between the Jews... from what I understand, nobody had a regular army back then, people would just send a genenral and gather an army, though I'm not really sure about that, anyway, if you are really interested, check the book out.

Hmm thanks I'll check out that book. See if I can grab a copy. Cheers

[Judean Prince]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Aug. 31 2003,15:56)]
Oh, and Judean Prince, I recommend that you stay away from the Tavern unless you like intense political debate, writing long posts and have a thick skin. I say this because the general consensus there is that Israel/America/Republicans/Christians are resposible for everything that is, ever was or ever will be, wrong with this world. Ever.

Thanks, actually I unfortunetly have a lot of expirience with people a lot worse than them, I understand what you mean.

[KFW_MadMick_5]

Just been reading about RTW, and from what it said the game will finish in AD14. At the time of Augustas death. I think Ive got my facts right. I wonder if Jesus will turn up somewhere

[Sigurd]

Quote[/b] (Judean Prince @ Aug. 31 2003,20:36)]Well, I'll tell you what, I actually got a lot more interested in the Judean war because I began reading this book: The Jewish War, it was written by Josephus Phlavius, who was a Jew born in Jerusalem, his real name was Joseph Ben Matitiahu, anyway, the book was written somewhere between 75-79 A.D.,

I meant to post this earlier...

Is this the same book that is labeled ‘Josephus’ or did he produce other books like the one you mention… I have an old copy that I picked up in an old bookstore in Edinburgh, never read more than some of the first chapters.
I bought it back when I was reading up on Christianity and wanted other sources than the standard Bible.

I remember from the book that Moses actually was an Egyptian General and led the Egyptians to victory over the Ethiopians. The princess in the capital city of Ethiopia opened the gates on the condition of Moses marrying her.

[redrooster]

If i'm not wrong, amoung secular and comtemporary historians, only Josephus and Tacitus made mention of Jesus. If the game ends with augustus then the time frame would not cover the revolt that Josephus was involved in known formally as the Jewish Roman war where temple of Jeruselum was looted and destroyed or the Bar Kochbar revolt that ended up with Jeruselum destroyed and Isreal/Judea renamed Syria Palestina.
the Hopefully the game could model the maccabeans since they were pretty involved in local politics first with the seleucids then the romans. So maybe like the swiss in MTW they could emerge in the 2nd century BC to add flavour to the game.

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (,Sep. 01 2003 @ 14:53)]Just been reading about RTW, and from what it said the game will finish in AD14. At the time of Augustas death. I think Ive got my facts right. I wonder if Jesus will turn up somewhere .

Well, that would make Jesus around 19 or 20...All we know about him before he turned 30 are his birth and being left at the temple when he was 13. You might get reports of Magi from the East visiting Judeah around 3 BC. More likely would be the news of Herods slaughter of all kids under the age of 2 (and if you think that story is far fetched, you need to read up on Herod - the guy was a psycho)

My wife got me a book last Christmas which I’d not got round to reading – “Josephus. A unique witness” by David Bentley Taylor. This thread inspired me to dig it out and start reading it. Very, very interesting. He certainly led an interesting life I don’t know anyone who’s had so many near scrapes with death from shipwrecks, murder by his political enemies, his own troops for wanting to surrender (when the Romans had broken into the city of Jotapata after a 47 day siege) and then the future Emperor Vespasian as a POW. He prophecied that Vespasian would one day be Emperor, possibly to save his own skin, but he turned out to be right sooner rather than later.

He had also opposed the Jewish uprising as he felt that the Jews had no chance against 3 legions of the mighty Roman army (points at sig). Nevertheless, he was a general of the Jewish army and seemingly quite a competent one, trying to train his men in the manner of the Roman army. After Jerusalem fell he moved to Rome, became Vespasians best mate and wrote his histories.

BTW, Judean Prince, my book says that he wrote The Wars of the Jews in Aramaic (not Hebrew) originally, then had to learn Greek before he could translate it. Personally I wouldn’t have thought he would have written it in Hebrew cos Aramaic was spoken in Judeah at that time. But then again I can’t believe that such a well brought up and intelligent man would have to learn Greek in his middle age as Greek was the English of its day. I dunno

SeljukSinan – in all he wrote 4 books, The Wars of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews (the story of the OT), Life, and Against Apion. Altogether they are just a little bit shorter than the bible, so there’s a lot to read Whilst in Rome he had access to the diaries of Vespasian, Titus and King Agrippa, so he had pretty good sources for a lot of his material Having read the 1st 2 chapters of my book (on his life and then the story of Herod) which quote extensively from his works, he certainly seems an entertaining writer with an interesting story to tell. He certainly casts light on all kinds of issues. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the 2 chapters I’ve read so far

Finally I wouldn’t call him a secular writer Just a cursory glance at some of his writings makes it quite clear that he had a very strong belief in God and regarded holyness and righteous living as very important. “God is the beginning, middle and end of all things. All men ought to follow Him and worship Him in the practise of virtue.” He is our primary non-biblical source on Jesus Christ, and the early Christians and Christian church. He also sheds much more detailed light on over 20 NT characters from King Herod to Felix and Festus, greatly enhancing our understanding of the people and society in the NT. Its also worth pointing out that our knowledge about the early 1st century AD from contempary sources is patchy to say the least about *everything*, not just Jesus Christ, with just a handful of fragments of info here and there.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Judean Prince @ Sep. 01 2003,14:02)]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Aug. 31 2003,15:56)]
Oh, and Judean Prince, I recommend that you stay away from the Tavern unless you like intense political debate, writing long posts and have a thick skin. I say this because the general consensus there is that Israel/America/Republicans/Christians are resposible for everything that is, ever was or ever will be, wrong with this world. Ever.

Thanks, actually I unfortunetly have a lot of expirience with people a lot worse than them, I understand what you mean.

Oh come on we are not that bad Mount... I'm sure Judean Prince will hold his own in our furious political discussions.

Welcome to the Org Judean Prince

[Mount Suribachi]

Maybe so. But I just can't be doing with it. Before I took a 6 month break from the org, one poster even blamed Christianity for the hole in the ozone layer...

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Sep. 01 2003,18:53)]Maybe so. But I just can't be doing with it. Before I took a 6 month break from the org, one poster even blamed Christianity for the hole in the ozone layer...

Yeah there's always someone who takes things a little too far, on both sides... I just take it with a pinch of salt and get back to the serious discussions, trying to avoid rising flames.

[Judean Prince]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Sep. 01 2003,12:53)]Maybe so. But I just can't be doing with it. Before I took a 6 month break from the org, one poster even blamed Christianity for the hole in the ozone layer...

[redrooster]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Sep. 02 2003,02:10)]Finally I wouldn’t call him a secular writer Just a cursory glance at some of his writings makes it quite clear that he had a very strong belief in God and regarded holyness and righteous living as very important. “God is the beginning, middle and end of all things. All men ought to follow Him and worship Him in the practise of virtue.” He is our primary non-biblical source on Jesus Christ, and the early Christians and Christian church. He also sheds much more detailed light on over 20 NT characters from King Herod to Felix and Festus, greatly enhancing our understanding of the people and society in the NT. Its also worth pointing out that our knowledge about the early 1st century AD from contempary sources is patchy to say the least about *everything*, not just Jesus Christ, with just a handful of fragments of info here and there.

Guess secular would not be the best word for josephus, maybe non messianic or non believer? Pertaining to Christianity of course.
Information from 1st century AD patchy???

[Mount Suribachi]

He was simply a believing Jew - raised as a pharisee (who were the main targets of Jesus criticism for their hypocritical legalism).

I said *early* 1st century AD. I'll have to dig out my book where it lists contempary sources from around the time of Jesus's life.

[Judean Prince]

Quote[/b] (redrooster @ Sep. 01 2003,08:53)]Bar Kochbar revolt that ended up with Jeruselum destroyed and Israel/Judea renamed Syria Palestina.

At least someone knows his history...
(as oppose to some other people who decide not to acknowledge the fact that so called Palestine was once really a Jewish state long before the Arabs came here.)