Ashigaru..

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Are they supposed to be more cost efficient then any other troop type in the game? I know, in the campaign they're practicly useless because you can only get honour so high. But in the Custom battle mode, it seems like upgrades and honour to the Ashigaru are a wee to cheap.

Its pretty bad when you can have a honour 5 Ashigaru with two weapon upgrades for almost the same cost as a Nodachi. Specially when this cheap lil unit can beat at equal costs a warrior monk. (reduce the monks honour to match costs)Plus, it can take out cavalry handily.

In the higher Koku games I can easily create honour 7-8 ashigaru with 3 weapon upgrades and still have decent Cavalry and Musket contingents. I'v heard a spattering of grumblings so far but not one post has been made about it lately.(Emphasis on the lately, I haven't searched for the topic yet)

I'v done many tests to back my findings. THe only way I see to defeat these dishonorable monsters is with archers, and even then the ashigaru armour upgrades are cheap too. THis is; of course, assumeing that playing skill are on equal levels.

I found some promise in Naginata, but they're so slow, I hate useing them.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Zone]

Interesting... I dunno much about it though as I very rarely play MP due to my dad paying the phone bills and getting suspicious about hours on end (I know that's an exageration but...).

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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Play with V1.02 - Ashi were seriously weakened to stop the musk/ashi newb combo. While they are useful at times, relying on them as your troop mainstay will cost you, since they rout easier than samurai and their fear carries over into nearby units - causing massive panic and routing, leading to slaughter of your armies.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Puzz3D]

Katasaki Hirojima,

The cost structure of upgrades does present a problem in custom battle and online. The relative balance of the units shifts since lower cost units can be given more ungrades. The combat power added by each upgrade is fixed, but the cost of the upgrade is related to the H2 value of each unit. Heavily upgraded YA or YS become equal or better than the shock units that are supposed to defeat them. It helps to keep the total koku down around 7000 which limits the possible upgrades.

The YA had their armor reduced in v1.02, but a cost increase just for custom and online play would have been preferable. The real problem is that honor upgrades affect hth combat ability. If you had three levels of weapon, armor and morale upgrades, the basic units would stay closer to their intended roles and relative balance. The 0 - 9 range of honor upgrade is very large when you consider that a +2 advantage in melee almost guarantees a win when all other combat factors are equal, and you now have +3 weapon and +3 defend on top of the +9 honor giving a total of +15 hth combat increase.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Yeah, So what if the Ashigaru rout at honour 1. I'v seen Ashigaru fight down to 15 men at times and only then begin to waver at honour 7-8.

I tryed lowering the koku, that helped some but it'd have to be a really low koku game in order to get there honour down to that "Routing threshold" where you can't pump it past 4 eles the rest of your army suffers.

I agree, though, realisticly the organized, well trained and equiped conscript army should overcome the smaller noble composed irregular army of samurai. Hehe, were such traditionalist were blind to reality.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[LordTed]

Suped up ashigaru with weapon and armour give somewhat deceptive and stubbon resistance on mp.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

*L*decpetive isn't the word, more like a total suprise. It seems you an only beat them with superior tactics. Ugh, I gotta keep repeating this mantra "You DO NOT fight up hill, even if its just a lil molehill."

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[BakaGaijin]

Actually, an additional bonus to Ashi is that they DON'T decrease the morale of samurai units. Beware of letting them rout through guns, though.

I agree that Ashi are extremely, "deceptively" powerful in multi, but it's not as bad as you'd think. Armour upgrades are very expensive, even for Ashi, and they still don't do very well against guns.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[LordTed]

If one ashi goes the whole god damn lot do

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"What did he say"

"Play LordTed"

"Oh its that fool"

[Katasaki Hirojima]

*L*Yeah yeah..

But its just OBSCENE to see a unit of ashigaru at equal costs and equal numbers and level terrain(ironing board) DEFEAT a unit of warrior monks with men to spare.

I don't care HOW much you train these pheasants, they shouldn't be able to beat a same sized unit of men who've spent there entire lifes training for battle, praying to there god and weilding Naginata like pros. Warrior Monks should be THE infantry unit on the field. Not for some newb reason, but for reality. I have a high amount of respect for warrior monks, thats all. They spend there entire lifes in a martial enviorment.

Its my opinion that ashigaru are toned down.

I, as it stands like useing them because they are strong and fast. Yet everytime I see my ashi defeat monks and Nodachi, something just dosen't seem right. Thats all. I don't care how much they run, they shouldn't be able to get that skilled that easily. It defys reality.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Well, I did some more testing and it turns out Yari Samurai can beat Ashigaru. *L*Reason being that in order to match the natural armour of the yari, you have to decrease the Ashi's fighting ability. This evened the score and the Yari won. Still, why WM can't win is beyond me.

However, I can accept Yari Samurai beating WM sorta, still kinda bothers me, but oh well.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Iced~Metal]

Might I just add a comment..... William Wallace and his band of peasants/rebels destroyed English armies.

Can't wait to try Rebels & Ronins and pump out Ashigaru! Peasant Revolution!

[Rath]

It'd be more realistic imo if they maxed ashi honour at say 4 and wep/armour at 1...just so in most cases they won't beat your elite troops...but i guess some would see that as restrictive.

[evilc]

go back to 1k games, then ashigaru either are suped up and out-numbered, OR numourous and crap. Either way, you can't lose to them