Bush for President ... for a 2nd term?

[kiwitt]

Quote[/b] (Bezalel @ Jan. 18 2004,20:04)]Hillary isn't even running for democrat. It's Kerry, Edwards, Dean, and Clark as the main four.

Note it will be Bush re-elected then Hillary will run in 2008.

[Myrano]

Nothing personal, Gawain, just do a little more research first, that's all. Sticking up for America doesn't make us look bad, and I agree completely with your point that it is easy to find fault with America because she leaves a big footprint.
The one thing I am forced to disagree with you on is homelessness. While there are a lot of people on the streets for what may or may not be called their choice (drug addictions, mental problems, etc.) it is false to say that everyone on the streets *wants* to be on the streets. One of America's biggest myths is that of the Horatio Alger stories, that is, that anyone who works hard can be a millionaire.

Oh, and Kiwitt, what exactly did you mean?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nothing is absolute of course not all the homeless are drug addicts and mentally ill but a great many if not most are, You cannot deny that their numbers have risen significantly since all the mental hospitals were closed down.What we call poor is considered well to do in a lot of countries in africa.And by that im not talking of the homeless but those on welfare or with low paying jobs. Here in NY during the current cold spell the police had to go out and round them up and force them to take shelter.If they really want to get off the street there is help available is my point.So i made a few mistakes im not perfect either and never claimed to be so have most of the others here,But I feel my main points are valid and sure I get carried away sometimes as i feel that the rest of the world dosnt appreciate us.And no one believes if you work hard you will automatically be rich but you sure wont be living in the street either.You cant deny that if you want to work in america you can at least get a job where between your work and government assistancee you will have some kind of roof over your head.Again this is not absolute Im sure there are some exceptions as there are to everything but im sure that it is very rare.We even give illeal imigrants welfare and medical care for pete sake.

[SPQR Panzer-Jager]

Myrano, whats truly making america look bad are people like you who would actually consider having hilary as president.

The entire issue(american society and culture vs european) can be summed up realitively easily. Europeans expect their government to provide everything for them, Americans expect their government to provide an enviroment where they can succeed if they apply themselves and work hard. Europeans believe believe that the populace must be equal, that no man is better than another. In america, the individual is still held above the populace. Europeans have accepted dependency on their government, americans have not and will not. The spirit of independence bred into every american and the american society in general is what separates the country from the rest of the world.If America sees the rest of the world jumping off the proverbial bridge, shes not going to jump along with it. Its her independence from the rest of the global community that makes america so great, and so hated.

In fact, George W. Bush resembles america in many ways. Hes strong, focused, unwavering, moral, independent(of course), and not afraid to act when others dont have the will power. GWB, like america, faces alot of criticism for his actions, but wat makes him a great man, and makes america a great country, is the fact that both do whats RIGHT not wats popular at the time, and history will prove this. Remember all those hundreds of thousands of protestors when Reagan went to Europe, dont they feel foolish now.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

To Gawain of Orkeny:

Quote[/b] ]I guess you dont read my posts in almost everyone I say that the US is not perfect that we make mistakes and so does everyone else.

I've been unable to spot that. Good to know you known it.

Quote[/b] ]Do you think the homless here live in the streets because they cant afford a place to live if so you have alot to learn.

Can they? That's news to me...

Quote[/b] ]Amd who was this woman making those remarks a government official do you think she represents what most americans feel.

A common citizen expressing herself. I'm sure she doesn't represent most Americans, but she really does give EVERYONE, a POOR impression on tolerance.

Quote[/b] ]Sure other countriees send foriegn aid but do any come close to what we send?

Of course, each country sends what is willing to give or what it can. But you forget that you're the wealthiest country in the world. Accordingly, none other can reach your levels of spending.

Quote[/b] ]If we mention the good things america does you either call us pompus asses or say we are full of ourselves.

No. Only when you fail to see the wrongness of certain specific actions, do I engange in criticism. I do the same for every other nation or person.

Quote[/b] ]By the way Prtugal has much to be proud of back in the age of sail she was one of the greatest countries in the world and in modern times has pretty much been able be preety neutral and mind her own buissness.

Yes, we performed great achievements, but also criticizable ones. We have great qualities and great flaws too. Just like everyone else...

Quote[/b] ]You wont see me tearing down your country.

Of course not. I didn't start bashing the USA, I started disagreeing on a future Bush re-election. The talk evolved into American Foreign Policy and then that led to the way USA is percieved by the world. A quick side-step led to a subsequent analysis in American History, with all the Pros and Cons involved. Since the topic was never about my country, you couldn't be tearing it down. We weren't talking about it.

Quote[/b] ]Its easy to find fault with america because she is so big she leaves a big footprint.

Yes, you have a point here. But, since the USA is so big and important, it must measure each step much more carefully.

Quote[/b] ] Nut in general the good we do far out weights the wrong and that is my main point.I believe the world is a far better place because of us.

Yes, I agree.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

To Myrano:

Quote[/b] ]One of America's biggest myths is that of the Horatio Alger stories, that is, that anyone who works hard can be a millionaire.

I agree.



To Gawain of Orkeny:

Quote[/b] ]And no one believes if you work hard you will automatically be rich but you sure wont be living in the street either.You cant deny that if you want to work in america you can at least get a job where between your work and government assistancee you will have some kind of roof over your head.

How many unemployed does the USA have?

Quote[/b] ]We even give illeal imigrants welfare and medical care for pete sake.

So does my nation. And most European ones.



To SPQR Panzer-Jager:

Quote[/b] ]Europeans expect their government to provide everything for them, Americans expect their government to provide an enviroment where they can succeed if they apply themselves and work hard.

LOL Nice perception of Europe.

How can you say such blunders?

You keep mixing up a strong wellfare system with poor work dedication? That means a lot of your analysis capabilities.

Some of the Europeans like a powerfull governement because they need it to regulate greedy, dishonest private enterprises with unjust policies or greedy, dishonest citizens with false swindling claims. And they want a powerfull wellfare system, to protect the injured parts on each of those cases. Do you think that European economy would hold it's own, if we didn't work hard? In fact, do you expect for European Governments to protect lazy a**holes? It isn't in anyone's interest achieving such a goal. And it NEVER was.

Quote[/b] ]Europeans believe believe that the populace must be equal, that no man is better than another.

Sure. That is why most European countries have garbage men running the government, politicians playing professional football, hairdressers running big corporations and retards teaching Quantum Physics...

Quote[/b] ]The spirit of independence bred into every american and the american society in general is what separates the country from the rest of the world.If America sees the rest of the world jumping off the proverbial bridge, shes not going to jump along with it. Its her independence from the rest of the global community that makes america so great, and so hated.

Hey, how about singing the Stars & Stripes aswell?

Quote[/b] ]In fact, George W. Bush resembles america in many ways. Hes strong, focused, unwavering, moral, independent(of course), and not afraid to act when others dont have the will power. GWB, like america, faces alot of criticism for his actions, but wat makes him a great man, and makes america a great country, is the fact that both do whats RIGHT not wats popular at the time, and history will prove this.

ROTFLMAO

You are a definitelly a DELUDED person

Facing such a sad example, I'll rest my case and abstain from further comments.

[makkyo]

Quote[/b] ]In fact, George W. Bush resembles america in many ways. Hes strong, focused, unwavering, moral, independent(of course), and not afraid to act when others dont have the will power. GWB, like america, faces alot of criticism for his actions, but wat makes him a great man, and makes america a great country, is the fact that both do whats RIGHT not wats popular at the time, and history will prove this.

Going to war and actually doing something is a lot better than rolling over and dying like the French. We had family die on 9-11 and the American peoples want their lives avanged.

[spud_gun]

Quote[/b] (makkyo @ Jan. 19 2004,16:40)]

Quote[/b] ]Going to war and actually doing something is a lot better than rolling over and dying like the French.

Silly comment, sorry, but if you look at the history of France circa WW1, and as an Englishman belive me, it pains me to say this, they lost a generation of fighting men, so when WW2 came around there was no real chance for them. The Mangiot(sp) line was a fantastic idea, but Hitler decided to go through the Ardenes(sp)instead, classic move, make your enemy think your going one way, then go the other, we call that selling a dummy.

As I said before I'm English, so after defending the French, rightly or wrongly, I must now fall on my sword

Edit: Just swaping emoticons around

[Lord Of Storms]

I have read this topic on and off for some time and it has degenrated into yet nother U.S.A versus Europe Thread.
Boring, and whats worse I am not seeing any links to the facts that back up some of the statements made. Poor form indeed, it is easy to make accusations against any nation or to base a nations ideaologies on the comments of one person
My nations better then yours blah,blah,typical Anti-European-Anti-U.S. rhetoric, give me a break, let us see some facts
For myself I learned the hard way to not get involved in political threads,(I post in this one in my Moderators capacity) more times then not they get ugly, and it is just not worth it,In my opinion it's not what these forums are about.
But to each his own, agrue, debate just keep it civil and state some facts to back up what you say it gives more credibilty to your arguement and no name calling or I will shut you down Thanks for your cooperation...LOS

[Papewaio]

Pape Rant Coming Through.

Ok to take it off Anti-EU/US

All northern hemisphere guys suxor

You wouldn't know independance if a croc bit your flabby ar$e or a tuatara bit your sanger off at your meatballs.

Independence is not being a drone. Repeating words on how independent you are.

Independence is not having a mother state of regulations.

Independence is not saying how independent you are then being sent to your room by your Mom.

[kiwitt]

Avenging (even for 9/11) is not a good thing whatever the reason. It has been used as justification for eons.

When you retaliate, it is almost always not in proportion to the loss you incurred. Be it less or more. This imbalance causes stress and tension on both sides.

The reparations on Germany after WW1 caused its anger and resentment. The Sanctions on Iraq caused it a lot of pain. The Palestine and Israeli attacks are currently imbalanced.

I believe dialog, mediation and reconciliation are the only way for the world to go forward. The main point if you don't talk, nothing will happen. Even if talk achieve nothing immediately, you must continue to try. Attack simply hurts the innocent.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ok lets get back to what this thread is really supposed to be about.Polling people who dont live in america dose not really mean much now does it.Or polling people who are not old enuff to vote.In every poll conducted in alerica Bush beats every democratic contender thats the polls that count.When the rest of the world can vote for our president then it will have some relavance.
I afree with storm we are getting no where with the rest of this europe vs america stuff excett causing bad feelings in the community IMHO so I will no longer have anything to say on the subject.As I have said many times before we are all entitled to our opinons.Its starting to lok like we are better off keeping them to ourselves.

[Papewaio]

Considering the influence of the multinational companies on campaigns in USA are you sure your statement is true?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh do the players posting here have anything to do with multinational companies and their effect on campaigns here.Also I guess im blind and dumb as I dont no which international companies they are or their effect.Even if we take your point the fact still remains that Bush beats every democrat in every poll.

[Aurelian]

Actually Bush is statistically even with the unnamed Democrat. Drudge had this story on his site today:

Domestic Issues Hurt Bush In Poll; Unnamed Democrat Pulls Nearly Even...

Link:
Domestic Issues Hurt Bush in Poll
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2....printer

Of course, the state of the union address is tonight, so Bush will get a big jump from that. All those people flipping channels will say Oh, yeah. That guy is president.

In a couple of weeks those same people will be ready to vote for Simon from American Idol.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well this ia a washington post survey or what Im not quite sure,But the post is a very liberal paper to be sure so you cannot just go with their anlaysis.But everything now in the news is about the Dem candadates they have been bashing Bush for months and yederday would be a high poinyt for them IMHO.Wait till we see who their candadate is and Bush starts returning fire.I believe most americans feel tha national security comes before anything and on this Bush is the clear winner.

[NewJeffCT]

Quote[/b] (SPQR Panzer-Jager @ Jan. 19 2004,03:25)]In fact, George W. Bush resembles america in many ways. Hes strong, focused, unwavering, moral, independent(of course), and not afraid to act when others dont have the will power. GWB, like america, faces alot of criticism for his actions, but wat makes him a great man, and makes america a great country, is the fact that both do whats RIGHT not wats popular at the time, and history will prove this. Remember all those hundreds of thousands of protestors when Reagan went to Europe, dont they feel foolish now.

Gag, Bush moral? This is a guy who admittedly abused alcohol; has not denied that he used cocaine; has been arrested not once, not twice, but 3 times, becoming the first president in US history to actually have a record when elected to office; he blew up frogs with firecrackers as a youth; reportedly has a mistress, just like his daddy; grew up as a child of a privileged family that got rich illegally selling goods to the Nazis into 1942; paid for an illegal abortion for an old girlfriend; etc.

Meanwhile, he has taken more vacation days than any president in recent history (breaking the record of his father) And, when not vacationing, he spends record amounts of time at big bucks fundraisers.

And, independent? This is a guy who's administration has bent over backwards to accomodate Big Oil, Big Insurance, Big Drugs, etc while gutting environmental regulations that his own EPA had said had saved the US billions in the 90s.

Focused and unwavering? His entire platform of 2000 has been reversed. Watch the hysterical Daily Show Clip of Bush the Candidate debating Bush the President. He also ran around the country in an airplane after escaping from elementary school on 9/11. His top priority when coming in to office was the Star Wars Missile Defense program. Clinton was poo-poo'd as being too obsessed with terrorism and bin Laden and the just completed Hart-Rudman report that warned of an imminent bin Laden attack on the US sat on a desk in Cheney & Rice's offices unread until 9/12.

And, I guess I would be physically strong if I had the time
to take as much vacation time as he does. Mentally strong? I don't think of anybody that has abused drugs & alcohol to be mentally strong.

[Dillinger]

Aymar, you are slanted. Period. You figure that if one point is dis-provable and false and irrelevant, that the whole person, and all the points he/she could make, is irrelevant, as they made one mistake. Please.

All Gawain is trying to say is that America, even with its faults, is still a great nation. When he tries to give an example, you brush it off with an emoticon. Why can't you except that some nations are stronger, wealthier, and generally more powerful than yours?

You tell me if tomorrow, we wake up and Portugal has become the leading world power, with the Americans, French and Germans snipping at her, disecting every action it takes, every move it makes, and then, discarding any shread of evidence otherwise, declares (secretly, of course) Portugal to be a 'bad' nation. Declares her to be unfit, cruel to her homeless, power-hungry, poorly-headed and all the other assorted problems. You probably wouldn't be too happy, as, the way you (rightfully) look at it, Portugal has done the world lots of good. It was a beacon for democracy, champion of Capitalism, and dispatcher of tyrants. It was the most righteous, stabile, and free super-power the world has ever seen.

Please Aymar, consider all of the points, and not just the ones that are irrelevant.

[Myrano]

Quote[/b] (SPQR Panzer-Jager @ Jan. 19 2004,03:25)]Myrano, whats truly making america look bad are people like you who would actually consider having hilary as president.

I take exception to that for two reasons.
First, it is overtly political, and we are supposed to be discussing Bush, not random political figures (though I acknowledge this is my fault too). Also, it is attacking me for my (presumed) beliefs, not the beliefs themselves.
Second, I never said anything indicating that I would indeed support Hillary for president; I was trying to insert some humor/sarcasm, though perhaps I should have used smileys to convey that.

Also, I doubt that that our non-American friends would look down on America because some people support a certain person for president; Lord knows we all have our share of loonies.

[Myrano]

I basically agree with Dillinger on his point that were the positions of the US and any other country swapped the exact same thing would be happening. Though all the arguments wouldn't be identical, the thrust of it would be. People all over the world are pretty much the same; it is the circumstances that separate us. That was the point of my original post.

Also, I would like to know what some Europeans think about my racism idea that I posted a while ago.

[Myrano]

Finally, (sorry for blabbing so much) back on topic.
I will not be voting for Bush this coming election because I do not agree with his social policy. In fact, I detest the views of the conservative Christians (Christian Coalition, etc...) who run the Republican party. (Granted, the people who run the Democrats aren't a whole lot better... the Democratic party has been torn apart with nearly every major crisis in the last two centuries...)

[Gregoshi]

...And so it came to pass that after two warnings , the participants in the Bush for President topic still couldn't resist taking shots at each other. Thus, before things got and someone , the topic was closed.