Israel's Options

[Pindar]

1- A greater Israel should be pursued. Ignoring international opinion or pressure the occupied territories won through war and sanctioned by scripture should be formally annexed. Occupants will either become citizens or be driven East of the Jordan River. Palestinians are Jordanians, any other designation is contrived.

2- A two state solution with the proviso that peace be attained first. Peace is the necessary precondition and guarantee that both parties are honest brokers. Peace will be pursued through a policy of negotiation/retribution for hostile acts.

3- A two state solution is possible but only after the elimination of all threats to Israel's security have been removed. This view advocates the proactive removal of all percieved enemies to the state. State sanctioned assasination of any/all Palestinian threats is acceptable.

4-A two state solution with the West Bank and Gaza physically divided from Israel via an improved and strenghed Hadrian's Wall model. All ties, commerical or otherwise are cut. Jewish settlements either return to Israel proper or sever citizenship. The Palestininans are to have no contact(commerical/travel) with Israel. They are free to fend for themselves.


5-Unilateral withdrawal to the 1967 border. Removal of all Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. Immediate recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of a new Palestinian state regardless of any continuation of terrorist acts or future hotility.

6-Immediate deportation of all intifada leaders. Declaration of martial law in occupied territories. Imprisonment/deporation of all malcontents. Establishment of an Israel friendly commitee of Palestinians. Through this council negotiate the final stages of a two state solution.

7- Declare for immediate UN occupation and administartion of occupied territories, declaring a willingness to accept any decision of the Security Council regarding the ultimate state of Palestine even to and including the ultimate control of Jerusalem.

8- Declare for immediate UN occupation and administration of occupied teritories, declaring a willingness to accept any decision of the Security Council regarding the final state of Palestine except, in regards to Jerusalem, which will either be declared a free city or remain in Israeli control.


Some of these options are more realistic than others. There are no doubt other options as well. These represent what I thought of late at night. Even so, what would you choose?

[A.Saturnus]

I voted 8, but I would like to make the restriction that not virtually any decision must be accepted. Israel should work fully together with the UN and let them enforce a bilateral solution. But this must also mean that the UN recognizes Israel`s interests when searching for a solution.

[Krazy Munkey]

Those stupid Israelis should let the Palestinians have their land

Sharon is a disgrace to all of Judaism, and Humanity in General He is such a hypocrit. The Israeli army is the real terrorist organization Why do we support them?

[Pindar]

To the Krazy Munkey,

I sense there's an opinion pushing your writing.

I'm interested in the their land clause and the disgrace and the real terroist organization clause, please explain in more detail how these conclusion have come about with such force.

[HopAlongBunny]

No vote.

All the solutions rest upon force; the only way force will create a lasting peace is in the annihilation of one side.

Number 5 does not; the chances of this coming to pass and not being exploited for the accomplishment of the above are practically zero-given the present political situation.

Possible pre-conditions to peace might include a realistic assessment of what an economy for Palestine might consist of. I suspect it would look like Isreal's, less the massive infusion of money from the U.S.; in other words no real economy at all.

Both sides must be committed to peace for it to work. That means accepting the fact that violence will occur, and trusting the other to deal with it as violence; not as a blow for US against THEM.

[komninos]

Excellent subject Pindar though it can get more than a bit ugly and easily turn in to a flame war between hot heads. It will need a close guarding from the rest of us.
Krazy Munkey, cool down … throwing accusations to people or states is no the best way to do business or go around in the forums especially when the subject is so delicate
I voted 8 though the write in my hart is 6. Unfortunately things have changed a lot since then. Both sides have lived in a war stat for so long that the hate runs deep. Both sides do not recognize the right of the other to exist. Though many times peace returned it was never long lasting nor untroubled. Even when historical agreements have been made radicals from both sides managed to have it there way.
We have seen this many times. The problem now is that from both sides the true power lies in the hands of extremists.
The Palestinians authority is totally power less to control the organizations like Hammas. There is also the oxymoron that the State of Israel demands that the Palestinians authority controls these organizations but also demands that the Palestinians authority is disarmed????
The Israeli on the other hand have turned to the radicals from the continuation of suicide bombings. Spearheading them is Ariel Sharon who was indicted from the War crimes tribunal in Belgium but the indictment was stopped since he is a head of state.
(Something that has not stopped several US administrations from taking aggressive actions in other cases)
I personally feel that peace will not come in the Middle East as long as the US is fully supportive of all actions and statements of Israel and the they do not accept the leaders of the extremist in the same table with Arafat who in that position can somewhat control them. Also disregarding Arafat is the singe most important evidence that the current Israeli government does not wont a true solution (i.e. My way or the high way … this is not recommended in foreign policy unless you are backed by someone truly powerful)

As a sub note …
It is well known that Israel has Nuclear weapons (last post on the subject appeared in the Guardiant … I think) and is considered to be the 5th ranking nation in nuclear capacity (Janes). Though denied by the official state it never hide its nuclear istallations.

[DeadRunner]

I think what the Krazy Munkey was try to saying that in the time that israel was other the direction of england (after 2 world war) the israellist have done the same thing that the palestines are doing now,sharon give autorization to a a group of anti palestine enter in a refugee camp(palestine) was a slaugther womens and children was the mainly ppl there ,sharon was done the same thing that he acused arafat.

I voted 8 option
my mainly cause is because that territory is important for 3 of the main relegion of this world what better thing that the onu (the humanity high representation of justice to take care of that area ).

that place already see to much blood in is sole m8s

[Shogun 144]

I voted number 1.


That land belongs to Israel and the Scriptures have said so. If you don't believe/ the Scriptures then look at this. When the British Mandate ended in May 1948 the Land that GOD has given Israel, that same land was granted to the newbron State of Israel by the British as they withdrew. Thirdly secular historians have proven that a Kingdom of Israel did exist on that land thousands of years ago and in the Middle East the older the claim the better it is. the Palenstenian claim in comparsion are younger then Isreal's. The Palenstenians are NOT the descendents of the people living in Israel before Joshua's conquest. Secular historians have aknowledged that the events in Exodus and Joshua had happened btw. The Palenstenians are a arabic people that came to Israel around the time of great islamic conquests (sorry don't remember the date, could someone help me with that), thusly their claim is younger. Another point would be that the Israelis are not terrorists and they are just fighting to defend themselves against terrorists. Israel is the only democary in the Middle East and thusly the UN or the US would most different need to support its claims to the land. Any Palenstenian state would be a Autocratic state or a Dictatorship, with Yasser Arafat as its head, and no one wants him in a place of power, his cousin Haj Amin Hussieni was best friends with Adolf Hitler. I think that a Israeli state in complete control of the lands the Scriptures say that they must hold is the only way that things must be.

[DeadRunner]

Lolol m8

1 i am here to have fun not to get .
2 for respect i will not engage you

but i will make a question
you are right I love history and i know that isralit ppl was there , WAS there but leave that place ,of course is place was taken its is the same thing if know appaers somone that saying that is ppl and him are celts Than almost of europe was for him (lolol let out this way the way you are saying is this a native american (cheyene etc ) could apears now and say hey my ppl are the owners of this place we have full right to be where m8.
Firts think what you want to say m8.

and the isralist have done terorist actions against england m8 ,that was the reason that the english want to get out of there


ps I ask sorry to all moderators and other users if a get to violent

[A.Saturnus]

Shogun 144 , with the same logic you can say the coalition forces should withdraw from Bagdad and it should be given back to Mongolia. The Mongols have conquered it in a fair way and the original inhabitants don`t need it anymore (because they have all been slaughtered). The Mongol Khans were descendants of the Grey Wolf and the whole world is therefore rightfully theirs. And Mongol territory was much more peaceful than Saddams regime or any Islamic regime we can expect there.

In any case, your policy would mean to avoid peace at all costs. And that`s what we all want, isn`t?

[Shogun 144]

Deadrunner, A. Saturnus that logic was only meant for that situation only appling to others is a different matter entirly and derveres their own disscusion. also A. Saturnus I want peace as much as next man but this is a fallen world and war is rampart here, patictury in the Middle East.

[A.Saturnus]

Quote[/b] (Shogun 144 @ Oct. 10 2003,19:00)]Deadrunner, A. Saturnus that logic was only meant for that situation only appling to others is a different matter entirly and derveres their own disscusion. also A. Saturnus I want peace as much as next man but this is a fallen world and war is rampart here, patictury in the Middle East.

Well, that`s the definition of double-standard. If you argue in a certain way, it is only honest to apply the same logic in all comparable situations. Otherwise you get an ethic of particularity which is unfair in the extreme.
The reason I used that counterexample was to show your arguments would lead to obviously absurd consequences if applied in an unbiased case.

[Shogun 144]

A. Saturnus that is your opinion and I have mine which I have stated, neither of us isn't going to change the others mind so why don't we drop this and believe want we want.

[DeadRunner]

like i said shogun i am here for fun m8 ,nest time you must try to see the big picture nothing is white and black

[A.Saturnus]

Quote[/b] (Shogun 144 @ Oct. 10 2003,19:31)]A. Saturnus that is your opinion and I have mine which I have stated, neither of us isn't going to change the others mind so why don't we drop this and believe want we want.

What do you mean with my opinion? I explained why your argument is invalid. If you want to argue that it is valid, we can have an interesting conversation about logic - a topic I´m highly interested in - so that would be off topic.

I do of course realize that you probably won`t change your opinion about the best policy for Israel. That`s ok.
Most discussions here don`t lead to a change of opinion. But it is still worthwhile to present the reasons one has for his opinions and let them be judged by others. It´s a way to widen our horizons and it even may help us to make our opinions even better defended, since we learn what counterpoints can rise against them. What I said proves in no way that your opinion is false, only that the arguments for it are vulnerable. I invite you to defend them or find better ones. If you do, I will challenge them or accept them, by this, we both learn.

[Gregoshi]

Let's keep the discussion on a rational & civil level please. A similar topic in the Tavern got nasty a time or two. I don't want to see a repeat of that here. Thank you.

Please continue.

Edit: Very nice statement on the purpose of these discussions A.Saturnus.

[komninos]

A.Saturnus,
Well said ... discussion is one of the things that separate the human race from the animals. If we can't have one civilised rational discussions then we should start thinking.

Shogun 144,
The scriptures say many things ... many of them are allegoric so they are not meant to be taken in a word-by-word basis. Also scriptures have been written down by men, wise men non-the less but men after all. They had their passions, their biasing, their faith ... not all is as it appears to be at a point in time. That is why we do not write history unless a generation or two pass
If you consider this as you said it then follow this ... if at the end you thing it is crazy this is exactly what you claimed …
==========================================================
Starting from me ... I am Greek ... today’s Greeks are the descendants of many nations ... we can also claim that we are the direct descendants to the Byzantine Empire. Since the Byzantines were actually Romans ... and Rome was invited by Germanics we can claim that we are actually the only descendants of the Roman Empire and since we are Greeks the only descendants of the Alexandrian Empire ... So actually we should claim ... Europe, as north as Hadrian’s Wall in Scotland, the Rhine and Danube rivers. The North Africa, Middle east ... and as East as the Caspian sea, Afganistan (Bactria), Pakistan, and a large part of India (the high of Bactrian kigndom). Crazy ... wait it gets worse ... since the modern mathematics are based on some simple rules derived by Thalys, Pythagoras, and others ... every time you open your PC, Calculator, design a building, can, plane ... etc you should pay royalties to Greece ... nice if it was true .
==========================================================
Well both the Israelis and the Palestinians would have to live in the same patch of land ... they better find a way with out the It is my diving right to be here stuff This is just the thing that gets people killed down there.

[Shogun 144]

Komninos, I have just read your post and I understand what you are saying. However the scriptures where written by the Holy Spirit of God working through man, thus God is the true author of the Bible. I understand that you and probably many others wont like the statement and I accept that. I second thing is that I did not state the land belongs to Israel by right of conquest. Another thing is that the Palenstenians do own the land Israel now inhabits they invaded it does not belong to them it belong Israel and no one else.

[DeadRunner]

shogun 144 i respect your beliefs .

1. the jews left israel by thei own foot a vacum was created in that place ,than otherr clan appaer and take over the land the same way that they take when they arrived from exodus.
2.ancient israel was large numbers of wars (they conquer some locations)
3.they leave to become exiles by their own hands they get to all europe that way
4.2 world war after this the winners of the contest resolve to put thejews in one place several locations here put ,one was Madeira ,other the know israel.
5.the new home was in conjuction with the palestine english become the guardias in that place working other the comands of the new formed group O.N.U
6.isrealist started to put bombs ,making ilegal trips to get miliatry equipment to the way of conquering the new land from england .
7.engalnd get out of there to prevent more blood in their ranks
8a) isreal is declared by them a republic ,palestine made tghe same thing because he fell under pressure
b)isreal started war against palestine arab world response(engalnd and france give secret help to cairo against israel)

the porcess till our days our a nightamre to the ppl (palestine and isralist crimes our comited against the two sides ,sharon is one of that criminals

this is the reason that onu must intervine to put order and justice in a place that is holy to 3 main religions of the is world

[Shogun 144]

Deadrunner,


1. The Jews did not leave by thier own accrod they where forced. After Jerusalem fell the Roman armies of Titus in AD 70 they began to force the Jewish population to leave the land in event called the Great Dispora.


2. the Kingdom of Israel never made any conquests after Joshua, with the exception of the conquest of Jerusalem by David.

3. The Jews did not become exiles on thier own arrcod they forced by out by three different powers: Assyria, Babylon, and the Roman Empire.

4. After WW2 the UN forced Britian to fufill an old promise made to the rabbis in 1918 to create a Jewish State, it was the UN's idea to create a Palenstinen State.

5. The creation of a new Jewish State was not made in corallabration with the Palenstinens, they wanted to destroy Israel and anyone that got in thier way, even the British.

6. Israel did not conquer the land from the Brtish, it was granted by a UN resolution. Never did Israel make anything even partly resembing a terrorist attack on Britain or any other country for that matter.

7. While the British did want out because the Palenstinen attacks where more brutal, the withdrawal was mainly due to the Un resolution that created a Jewish State.

8a. the Palenstinens had no intention of creating a republic, Islam simply does not allow such a thing.

8b. Israel did not start the wars against the Arab nations, the National Arab League Council in Damacus declerced war on them. Britian and France never supported the arabs, I believe what you are referring to is the 1956 war where Britian and France gave materials to Israel to sieze the Suez Canal in Egypt so that Britian and France could place the Canal zone under their control.



whooo, well that is all I am posting for today. cya later.

[LestaT]

Outlaw all guns.

[kataphraktoi]

Show me the scriptures Shogun 144

Perhaps I can assume your a non-Jewish Christian Zionist?

Why should Israel concern Christians anyway, the reason seems to be eschatological rather than any prophetic obligation on the part of Christians. Although, I do not see how it would quicken the Second Coming as most would argue.

ANyhoo, my views.

The way Arafat is behaving, he makes Ariel Sharon look like a dove and the Israelis doves too.

Bring back the former Palestinian PM and for goodness sakes give him some real power

The problem is not Israel, it is the attitudes and mentality of both sides since Israel gained independence. Through misunderstanding, war and plain political correctiness, both have entrenched positions making any initiative hard. Any initiative is seen as a sign of weakness....hint. developed through years of warfare.
The only initiative between the Arabs and the Jews came from Sadat and Rabin, who paid with their lives. Hmmm strange coincidence there.

Shalom, Salam, Pax, theres a word for peace in every language but no one knows how to put that into action.

Word of Faith movement is HERESY....thought I'd put it there for posterity.

[LordKarolinger]

I personally blame the Palestinian Leadership(namely Arafat) for supporting some of the Terrorist. and would agree with Kataphrakoti in saying get the old Palestinian PM Back.

[A.Saturnus]

Quote[/b] ]2. the Kingdom of Israel never made any conquests after Joshua, with the exception of the conquest of Jerusalem by David.

Well, the scriptures say explicitly that the Jews came from Egypt and conquered the land they called then Israel. Of course, more reliable sources see things a bit different, but certain is that there have lived non-jewish people in the region before.

Quote[/b] ]Shalom, Salam, Pax, theres a word for peace in every language but no one knows how to put that into action.

That`s right, peace sells... but who`s buyin`?

[Shogun 144]

A. Saturnus the conquest of Israel was by Joshua. And kataphraktoi I am not a Catholic. Unlike them I support Israel and also the meaning of the word Zionist is a Christian that supports Israel. For the most part Zionist are Protestants. And Saturnus as I said the Palenstenians are desendents of the peoples living in Israel at the time of Moses and Joshua.

[DeadRunner]

shogun the jewsleave israel only to return ............ a lot of centuries later.
I regert what happen in ww2 but is time to stop to blame us (woldr) to what happen but always take the lesson to that dont repit.
and for that we are clossing our eyes of the extermination that palestine ppl are surfering form isral what sharon and is lap dogs are doing is the same that hitler have done m8 is genocide
what way have a poor country to fight back than terrorist acts .
i dont like terrorism and i am aganst it when civils are in way .That is way ONU must enter in isreal and control that place is the only way to peace m8


unless you whan genocide of the palestine

[Shogun 144]

Deadrunner,


I know the Jews left only to return, but what I am saying is that they did not leave by thier own will.


Also what you are charging Ariel Sharon of doing is what the Palenstinens are doing to the Israelis. Do know how many people die each day because of the Palenstenin terrorists? Do you know how many die because of the suicide bombers, car bombers and more? Israel is only defending herself Deadrunner, and it is Arafat not Sharon who is most like Hitler. For goodness his cousin Haj Amin Husseini was best friends with Hitler. I bet that is where the Palenstenins get there ideas for how to kill innocet Israeli civians.

[DeadRunner]

I am not saying that arafat is a angel but sharon is not a angel to
sharon was responsible of massacre in a refugee camp.

i am not married but one thing that i am realy thinking is not to put a child in this crazy world that the first choice is war, the second is war .............. if war dont do the job then is a nuke in the bastards.

we are in xxi century and we still like the kings in dark ages
the law of the stronger

m8 i am tired to see the news is always the same thing
israelist and palestine must go to paece abd for that the sharon and arafat must shut up

[Shogun 144]

Deadrunner,


I understand what you are saying but there will be no peace in the world until the return of Jesus, I know you probably wont agree on that point but even if UN does intervene it wont make any difference all we can do watch and for those that think like me support Israel for they are the apple of God's eye. I know you probably wont agree with that either.

[katar]

does anyone here know what the actual topic is?

when you find out, let me know.