A idea for a new Game.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Yes, I am never short on 'Radical' ideas to apply to this staleing gameing world. Ooo, HOw I wish to be a game developer, but till then I can only rant. *sigh*

To begin, Shogun is a great game. I love it, but, more importantly, I love its engine.

To me the ultimate game whould be one that you make and design yourself. Civilization tryed to do this, but the boring turn-based theme loses my intrest quickly. Ecspecially when you see that a single city takes up the space of Georgia and the world pop has never broke 500 million.

Why not create a game that not only allows one to express his skill but his creativity. To be able to create not only maps and scenarios but new units as well.

THe success of The Sims is founded on the community. People constantly are makeing new "units" and putting them on the community. Everyone wants to create his ideal as the perfect person or hottest person or some other novel niche and then recieve praise and satisfaction for shareing it.

Where am I going with this? Well, this can be done with Shogun as well. The unit animation takes up very little memory. This was a result of trying to get 2000+ of these lil guys on one map without overstresssing the common 300MHZ, 64 mb computer. But behold, thus one chould have 50-100 diffrent units in a game and not take a chunk out of your hardrive the size of texas. Instead of forceing the user to work with a limited number of unit 'icons' and have to battle with the cryptic code of the text file, why not make a game's inner numbers and workings accessible from the ease of a User-Friendly interface.

Thus my "Super Editor". This is a editor with not only the units the game hsipped with, but hundreds of extra 'unused' animations. Under that unit every parameter can be defined, and a explanation for each easily accesible. You chould create your vaunted Polish Husaria on the plains of India to fight the pygmies of Africa in a battle for Kashmir.

Along with the unit editor, a Map editor to make even Age of Empires and Civilization blush. A map editor that was equally easy to use as my unit editor.

Low, not just that, a scenario editor of great power, with detailed instructions so that even the newbie, albeit a determined one, can use.

These three editors and a seperate "Animation Kit" to create your own unit animations and or stats and bundle them into a unit group file for upload. As well as the ability to draw new terrains and even so far as to be able to edit pictures seen on the interfeace at diffrent points perhaps.

A game whos code is flexible enough to allow such modification without some conflict.

This whould revolutionize the online shogun community and give it some serious net wide weight and recognition. As it stands only a elite group of coders and animators and patient people that work with the current map editor add variety to an otherwise rather closed ended game.

So, what do you think? I was going to put this in the MTW forum but I belive this isn't directly relevent to MTW, but to the larger "Total War" franchise.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[solypsist]

wrong forum.
glad you like the game!
check out MTW and see if your idea can happen with it, since STW is pretty much unsupported now.

[Kraellin]

katasaki,

you've obviously been eavesdropping on some of my conversations with tosa and yuuki. i've designed in my head what you're describing many times over. and i'm going to tell the dev guys a little secret. write this with lasers in stone, cause it's true. FOLKS LIKE TO HELP! that means they also like to contribute...same thing, pretty much. i see this all the time in the game community and it's certainly not limited to just that. look at all the contributions that have been made to this game...for free! being in this forum is the first example. the admin guys, the site itself, all the player made maps, the work being done on graphics, the hours the mod team did on 1.02, erado's tech support and those that contribute solutions there, and of course we cant forget the most important one; the babiest babe thread ;)

we are indeed consumers, but we're certainly not limited to just that. folks like to contribute to worthwhile ventures and projects and if they're paid with little more than a 'thank you' or 'wow. nice job!', they're often quite satisfied...they helped!

the same holds true with games. we like to contribute something, whether it's ideas, mods or whatever and game companies often forget this, because guess what, they're too busy trying to help you! but the point is, if you include a map editor, scenario editor, campaign editor, character editor, sprite editor and so on down the line, you open the door for more folks to join in with something. the single biggest reason the pc jr. put out by ibm a number of years back, was that it didnt allow anyone to contribute to it. it closed the architecture and no one would support it. they couldnt. the thing died a quick death and ibm took it in the seat of their pants.

it would be quite possible to write a very successful game with nothing more than a skeleton framework of code that essentially amounted to NOTHING but editors. you wouldnt even have to hire graphic artists. let the players design their own stuff. hire musicians? no need. let the players write it. it could be done, but if you did, prepare for a very long, ongoing development. it would take a bit of time for such a beast to catch on and be modded enough to play something coherent. but, it could work.

i've been a 'game god' before and helped design games before and my motto was ALWAYS, MORE OPTIONS! give the players MORE OPTIONS! fix nothing in place. make nothing static! i can keep several coders and artists going at one time with very little difficulty. OPEN IT UP! players would come in to our online world and go, 'holy sh*t!'. boy, that would just make my day! and inevitably they'd ask if they could help. so we'd give them a little area to work on...oh yes, we had editors and areas we could turn over to new gods to create things with... and they'd spend hours in there coming up with new stuff. so, by creating the TOOLS to make the game rather than making the game itself, we had a self propagating system of expansion. we often had more gods than players ;) folks like to create!

this could very easily be applied to commercial boxed games and like you pointed out, a few have done limited attempts, but the problem is that they do these as a sort of aside to their main program.

to me, it's much more fun to create a game than to play a game. hmmm, i may have to set up linux again and run that old game. i'm hyping my own interest ;)

there are some absolute gems out there that are totally free online multiplayer games, though i've been out of that arena for a while now, but i'm sure there are plenty still around. it's fascinating what you can do with some very simple stuff. you really dont need high res and multistereo surround sound type effects to make a great game. and if you also allow others to play in your sandbox, you'd be surprised what can really be done ;)

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[High Voltage]

Katasaki Hirojima, I've had this same idea for quite some time too. I would also like to add an advanced physics engine, with collision detections, which auto-calculates unit speed, fatigue, offensive power, defensive power, etc depending on the armor, weapons, and training. The physics engine would also calculate running momentum(a unit running builds up his speed) and stopping momentum(slows down gradually), also dependent on unit armor, weapons, etc.

Though instead of 2d sprites, I would use 3d. In order not to push too many polys, just have a variety of screen "meshes", so when zoomed in, the game uses a mesh which gives high polygon count to units, and zooming changes the mesh, resulting in a mesh with low polys per object.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Kraellin - Thanks, and no I haven't been eavesdropping on your conversations. ;p I'v had ideas like these all along. I guess this is another fine example that Great Minds think alike.

I agree with you completely, its frustrateing for me because I'm bursting with creativity, and have no way ot express it. I love to set myself in the imaginary place of the general. To sort of roleplay while I play. I want to lead My Own armies for once, you know?

Awhile back me and some other people at the ole Age of Kings Heaven Forums created a unit creation mathmaticle system that whould always create a well balanced unit to your specifications. Thus we had envisioned a online world where people created there own units and tested there self-made armies against those of others and there whould be no 'super units'.

Its to bad none of the designers took us seriously when they made EE.

I used to make maps, mods and scenarios for AOK. I tryed useing STW's map editor but the option isn't avalible to me. *shrug*

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Voltage - Wow, a physics engine whould be really cool..though I wonder how advanced the math whould have to be to simulate it. 0.o; Also it might be extremely hard to recreate the effect armour has because it only covers certain parts of the body. As it stands a unit is just a point in space with a attack/defense/armour/range*/morale rateing. (*A pikemen has greater range from the 'centerpoint' then a swordsman)

Dunno, I'm not as well versed with Code as I'd like to be so I won't pass judgement..

I hope more people catch on to this idea and champion it. We'll only get what we want when everybody wants it.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[High Voltage]

Katasaki Hirojima,
"Also it might be extremely hard to recreate the effect armour has because it only covers certain parts of the body. As it stands a unit is just a point in space with a attack/defense/armour/range*/morale rateing"

That is where the 3d objects come in. Think of a first person shooter, UT for example. If you shot someone in the head, the head would fly off. This same principle can be applied to an RTS game, but unlike STW, using 3d objects instead of 2d sprites. So if a unit stabs an enemy, depending on where it hit, death or just injury may occur, or no injury depending on the armor. Or the soldier may block with their shields. It would be fun to recreate how the Romans block arrows.

This can go further with soldiers getting battle wounds, or losing limbs. That may get too complex though.

Even more interesting would be to program a units shock power. So depending on how fast he is running and his weapon, more energy on impact may result. Or if a formation of units attack at once even more shock power is a result. Just look at Alexander the Great. A phalanx of 16 men deep, with spears 12'-14' long, running at full speed into a mass of troops. Or the energy from 200 cavalry also armed with spears.

Physics like this can really make a game more realistic, but I'm no expert programmer yet and it sounds really difficult

[Vanya]

Yum yum! With this I can finally make my Sumo Gunny *Heavey* Cavalry!

Good thing I pried the Gah!tling gun from Krast's cold, dead hand... Now that I have reverse engineered them, even my Monks will start sporting them in combat!

[jodmeister]

MMMMMMMMM....

What about....TTW?

Total Trench Warfare.....WWI.

Yummy....Tommies v Germans with funny lookin helmets.

Heavy gun barrages.
Heavy machine gun.
Heavy insults across the trenches.
Very small maps...well they didn't make much ground, did they?

Oh,.....and suicidal cav charges.


Fight the JOD!

[ElmarkOFear]

Wouldn't it be great if you could play in a 3D world as a single STW unit of your choice in a 16v16 game? Each side would have 16 units, every person would control as many units as they were comfortable with for their team. The game stats could be similar to old STW or WE with the playing world similar to that of Ghost Recon or RTCW, but using the lands of STW as their blueprint. Teamwork would count for more than it currently does, with every unit being important for the overall victory. The game would assign a certain amount of koku to a 'General' who would dole it out to every player on his team. He could give more koku for a player to buy wep/armor/honor upgrades and less to a player who would have a supporting role in the game. It would be a great challenge to coordinate a game like this but it would be fun. Campaigns could be run which would encompass a large group of people, yet still keep the number of battles manageable. Cheating would almost be non-existent due to the number of players involved in each match. It would allow for players to self police their own teams and put down/kick out anyone who tries to cheat. There are a lot of good ideas out here, and it is fun just to dream a little about what would be fun for you to play. CYA UglyElmo

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Hehe, ideas from MTW board leaking over into my post now. *L*

Like I said in MTW, I love this idea. Of course I'd always be a Cav Archer and a Warrior Monk as my 2 units, or Just Cav Archer If I were limited to one. ;p

In a way you can play a game like this almost. Have it a 8 vs 8 game. limit the koku so no one can afford alot of units, maybe 2-3 decent ones or 4-5 ashi's/guns. Then you'd have to try and organize your armys into a solid unit then march forward without being devided or that sorta thing.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Gothmog]

ElmarkOFear:

I thought it was a great idea. It makes the army kind of a lose alliance instead of one controlled by one single general.

And, if it's not too much trouble, just give me a unit of honor 9 battle ninjas with full weapon/armor update. And no, I'll pass on the title of chief commander.

[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 01-24-2002).]

[Catiline]

GDs days are numbered when I leave this open, at least in its current incarnation...

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Oh C'mon, at least this is a friendly conversation about TW. Its called GENERAL for a reason, and this is about as general as you can get.. ;p

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Catiline]

i agree completely

[Kraellin]

elmo,

hiya, ya old f*rt :)

yes, i made a post similar to yours in M:TW forum not long ago and yes, i think it would be great. but let's carry it one step further now, if cat will permit ;) imagine the full map of japan as our battlefield. and essentially, we are playing IN, not on, the strat map. each player involved, and it would have to be quite a few to make this work, would have their own small army or units. each would have a home province. each might start with a taisho and a daimyo, not himself being one yet. there is no online campaign game, so what if this were it. instead of moving little pieces around on a strat map, we simply did everything in battle mode. a game like this would be ongoing. it wouldnt be played in a single night or a single month and maybe not even in a single year. it would be more like one of those massive multiplayer games like air warrior or asheron's call. you log in whenever you like. you log out whenever you like. the play simply continues 24/7.

certainly there would be a lot of details to work out and it might have to be a pay game to make it work for the dev guys, but imagine 2000 players playing at once on dedicated game servers on the full map of japan.

i'll leave this as is for a bit and let others contribute ideas, but frankly it inspires me just thinking about it. but just one last note before i go...now, take this to the other regions and time periods of the world and let your imagination run. ;)

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[tootee]

These are large posting, and frankly I didnt read thru' all *pardon me*

For a win-win situation, I proposed that for new series of TW, the developer make available to us gamers access to a "super editor" as mentioned somewhere here, but of cos as a separate pack, maybe selling at half the price of the game.

I'm sure gamers who are DM-like and like to mod/tweak the game would take up the offer. And CA get to make more $ for making the game more "open-source". It will be a chain-reaction of some sort.. the community get larger, more mods, more people, more sale..

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tootee the goldfish
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[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I'd pay for that Tootee anytime! that would be great, if i had two brain cells mayb also I might be able to use it

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Kraellin - This reminds me of an Idea I had awhile ago. A massively multiplayer game based on a province like setup. Each Nations army is made up of various people serveing as 'Taishos'.

THe idea I purpose is a little easier to manage.

1. Land = Koku:
This is the heart of the system. A kingdom's total 'wealth' is devided amongst its Taishos. When you start your 'History' your given a sum of Koku dependant on your kingdoms size and wealth. YOu then must choose a army and that army is yours. You must guide it and its men through many battles in your campaigne.

2.Reinforcements:
During the course of your "history' YOu'll receive reinforcements. At the end of a 'year' all Taishos receive a equally divided amount of Koku to reequip there army. YOu also receive money through pillaging and bribes.

3. Diplomacy:
Diplomacy is handled by the Daiymo, that being the Best player in the nation. Daiymo army gains more money then a ordinary Taisho as well. A Daiymo can speek via a 'National Chatroom' With other lower ranked Taisho to discuss the affairs of state. The daiymo can also send messages to other nations for treatys, alliances, declarations and the like. THere whould be four relation states - Alliance, Peace Treaty, Neutral and War.

Peeace treaty and Alliance are binding agreements that ristrict the ordinary Taisho from invadeing. Neutral means a Taisho can invade if he likes but if hes going against the will of his Daiymo, it can lead to his summary execution...another of the Daiymo's powers.

During war, a Taisho can invade as he pleases. Though it is best to coordinate your efforts with the others.

4. Heirarchy system - Unlike Feudal Japan, where rank was determined by birth, here your rank is determined by not wins but total kills. Phryyic victorys are not acctually victorys in the long run since supplies and men are limited. Getting kills and HOnour is what determines your rank. The higher the number of kills/average honour of your army, the higher up the ladder you are.

Ranks:
1 Daiymo (Top player in a nation)
2 Cheif General (Second highest)
3 Ministers of war (Upper 10 percentile)
4 Taisho (Everything eles)

Notes:

Useing a special uneditable logfile thats saved to the Server to determine your troops for the next battle and there condition, you can then add on to that at the battle menu if you have any Koku.

The number of Taishos a nation can have is based on what the Daiymo decides. If he has a small nation yet allows many Taishos, the koku will be cut up into tiny bits and maybe to little for the Taisho to use. Baisicly he just puts in a number of Allowable Taisho and it then shows how much koku each Taisho will get.

Theres many ways to get game over. Based on rank you chould be let go if the Daiymo cuts down the Taisho number. THe lowest ranked ones get let go first. YOu chould die in combat. You chould be executed by the Daiymo (or delcared a rogue army, which is almost certain death.) YOu chould even commit Seppuku if your honour is REALLLLY Bad.

Finnaly to make it clear, the world map view is that of provinces. This is because thats easier to do and less hard on the small system.

When you log off, your army becomes "garrison". If there is a active army in the area they'll fight first. If they're beaten the enemy army will then move on to the next army and the next until the province is completely taken. When attacking Garrison(sleeping) armys, its always a autocalc battle. But there are normally few losses/kills and there is no honour gain/loss nor do Taishos die in Autocalc. Its just a either you win or you don't situation.

When Invadeing a province the enemy peice remains on the province. THis is now a 'contested province' in which armys are meeting and fighting in. After defeating a enemy your army must rest for about 3 hours (Real world time). THis is why its important to coordinate attacks. SO that you don't defeat one army, but then end up sitting there faceing three other Taishos and your men are resting on Autocalc. YOu can do 'surge' attacks in which you attack immediately afterwards but your men are as tired as they were after the end of thel ast battle and tire even more quickly in the next.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.