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Thread: A question of honour

  1. #1
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    Is it dishonourable behaviour if you "retreat" from the battlefield e.g. because the other guy camps, or you lost the game and just want to bring your last archer or whatever unit safely home?

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  2. #2
    Toda Nebuchadnezzar
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    I dont think so. If he camps then he is the dishonourable one. For example;

    Sekigahara, Ieyasu and his 75,000 men were marching towards Ishida and his 80,000. But when he got there he was the attacker. Ishida did not camp on the near by hill but faced Ieyasu's men in the valley and sent his men rolling forwards as Ieyasu's vanguard was just about to hit his line in the centre.
    Ishida escaped by retreating but he and his army put up a brave fight. He only lost because deserters from his 80,000 joined Ieyasu most notebly a cavalry contingent that was sitting on his left flank. They finally charged into the back of his own men saughtering them. But anyway Ishida escaped by retreating, he didnt camp and so did not loose too much honour. The fact that he lost was bad enough.

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    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
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    Bomilkar-

    Yes and no.

    YES: If the battle is lost and you are trying to save your last archer or Daimyo -- good for you. If you can get them off safe that is all fair. (unless you are screwing an ally in the process)

    NO: If you CHOOSE to be the Attacker, then you enter the battle knowing that it is YOU who must force the fighting. No one forced you to accept attack and I believe it to be the defender's right to camp if he wishes. (you get to choose weather, defender gets to choose to camp). So in this case withdrawing would be poor IMHO.

    [Now, if you are attacking and have ally drop so that it is 1 attacker vs. 2 defenders the roles should reverse or else I believe it fair to withdraw.]

    [This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 02-20-2002).]
    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

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  4. #4
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    This is like a knife - in itself it's a positive thing but you can also use it to slash someone apart...

    I use retreat (Ctrl+W) in different situations...for example if I did a wrong manouver, a quick way to move your army back is using this command. Or else my army routs but can be rallied - and I have some units standing - I use this command to retreat my units to the rallying point.

    However, as shingen said, it can be used negatevely, and some do use it like that.

    But essentially, it is a very good command to master.

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  5. #5
    Member Member evilc's Avatar
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    i played someone who started to withdraw his nag cav taisho after i enticed it out, to myu amazment he carried on withdrawing it until it was gone

  6. #6
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    If I got you right, retreating is not dishonourable as long as it is not done to get any kind of unfair advantage (e.g. leave a 2 vs. 2 partner to give the other team the win [By the way I would never do such a terrible thing])
    I just asked because I already had some (only a few) occasions, where the enemy camped and I didn't want to sacrifice my men. So I chose to retreat. Or the enemy won the gunbattle and didn't attack even when I had only a really small group left, I retreated (because he didn't attack, and whats the good thing of throwing 30 archers without arrows and some Naginata head on into an enemy army?)

    Shingenmitch, I dont have the possibility to choose if I want to defend or to attack, because I am on a LAN and thus I cant host. I tried lots of things, but I just cant host, so what do you say now? May I retreat or do I have to get my men killed (and their families left alone, my brave men's wifes crying and their children starving) or may I retreat them and bring them back on the field of honour another day to take my revenge against a camper on a flat map (where he can't hide in treetops and has to face my (nearly) unbeatable HC)?

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    [This message has been edited by BomilkarDate (edited 02-20-2002).]
    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Jaguara's Avatar
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    I don't think that it is dishonorable to withdraw in 1vs1, even as the attacker if your forces are broken.

    Why would you charge a few leftover archers up a hill into enemy monks...just pointless. It is not like you are going to steal a win from him.

    I have not played Shogun online for various reasons (mainly my internet at home has been hijacked for the last 6 months), but I have played other games online.

    What I find dishonorable is when a player just aborts the game before it is finished. Grrr.

    Question. In shogun online, does killing more enemies or saving some of your men effect your online ranking?

    [This message has been edited by Jaguara (edited 02-20-2002).]
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    Member Member theforce's Avatar
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    If you are the defender then is honorable to camp on the highest hill available on earth. If you are attacking though camping is not perminted!

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  9. #9
    Toda Nebuchadnezzar
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    Yeah I hate escapers. They start losing and most of their army are routing so they press esc to make sure they don't lose the game. So dishonourable. Its almost as bad as stabbing sumone in the back!

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  10. #10
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    Hey guys I am not talking about ESCaping I am just talking about retreating some men to save their lives, and to show a camper that I respect my artifical 2D men more than him. I would never ESCape.

    Jaguara, to answer your question, the number of kills and losses dosn't have any effect on the ranking, its just wins and losses (battles).

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    Bomilkar Date
    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

  11. #11
    Member Member Katasaki Hirojima's Avatar
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    When I'v lost and I don't feel like waiting for my enemy to kill me off I'll just rout my men and finish it.

    I'v never ESCaped, and never will...My honour will show that..~_~

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    "I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
    I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength.- Shang-ji Yang

  12. #12
    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
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    Bomilkar--

    Sorry that you have hosting problems, I do as well -- i have firewall that prevents it. However, we both join games willingly. Many times the hoster prefers to attack, so I still defend plenty (although I prefer the flexibility of being the attacker)

    If you lose the gun battle, and you are attacker, take the lumps and attack anyway. (BTW that IS the point of the gun battle, to strip your enemy of his ranged weapons and force him to attack.) As attacker you try to get the Defender to charge you. What would you think if the defender "withdrew" from battle everytime you beat him in the gun duel?! It is even more silly to think that the victor of the gun duel should have to charge, because now the other guy is at a disadvantage.

    Also, if you just give up, then what is the difference if you "withdraw" or just hit "escape" either way you are ending a battle prematurely and denying your opponent a clean victory.

    (there is a difference between withdrawing one last, little, depleted unit and withdrawing the bulk of an army that is in a very bad position)

    [This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 02-21-2002).]
    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Jaguara's Avatar
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    Shingenmitch

    Well, I don't think he is talking about withdrawing the bulk of his army. If the attacker withdrew archers, warrior monks cavalry and the lot, after just losing the guns, that would be silly. I think he is saying if his army has been broken...leaving him with a few archers and rag tag remnants of units...

    And I think there is a HUGE difference between hitting escape and withdrawing. With the withdrawl, you do not deny your opponent the win...with escaping you do.

    If you as a defender, break the opponents army, and do not pursue to exploit your advantage, then do not complain that you did not get your 'clean victory' if he withdraws his last 2 units of archers.

    Personally, I would get more annoyed at a defender who 'won' because he kept a unit of CA charging around until the timer expires even if all his other untis are gone, than if he withdrew.
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    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
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    GAH! Timers suck! All who use should have heads served to Krast as soup.

    Jag - in my first post I tried to make it clear that I have no problem with someone withdrawing the rag-tag last remains of an army (1-3 depleated units)
    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

    THE DEADLY SHINGEN



  15. #15
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    Jaguara, you got me right. And to I do agree with you about the difference in withdrawing and hitting escape.

    Of course I would never leave my brave men alone on the field. And if there are only few of them left, and the enemy doesn't give them a chance to fight and die in honour, but tries to kill them with balls of lead, I prefer to bring them home safely (happens only in strange battles, normally I attack if the enemy is winning the gunfight, last time this happened I had only some rallied men left on the field). What's a brave man with a ball of lead in his forehead good for?

    I retreated only a few times and last time the enemy gave my men a withdraw in honour. He followed close up but didn't attack my last few Archers, brave enough not to run away. That is what I think made his victory even greater. Everybody can slaughter fleeing men, but only a honourable player respects a retreating (tired, wet and nearly unarmed man). As he gave me my retreat, he showed greatness.

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    Bomilkar Date
    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

  16. #16

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    I think that in a 1 vs 1 game, you should give your opponent the oppurtunity to retreat... I'll march my men after them to make sure they don't rally, but I won't order their slaughter... in 2 vs 2, however, i would willingly sacrifice my men if I think my partner will benefit from it and thus grab a possible victory... in a campaign game, of course, you should slaughter the enemy to the last man!!!
    quote:You can gaze upon the lords, but looking at the shogun will make you blind; and the emperor cannot be seen at all. -Old Japanese saying

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    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Gah!

    It is always dishonorable to withdraw.

    Regardless of the number of men.

    Regradless of their arms and equipment.

    So long as there is any possibility of geting more kills on the enemy, it is your duty to attack with all your might in the hopes of destroying even just one of the opposing force.

    You may also learn someting during this exercise.

    Gah!

  18. #18
    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
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    Bomil --

    I'm curious about your thoughts to my points about losing the gun duel as the attacker. To me, withdrawing at this point or because defender is stationary is much more of a "poor sport" issue than the "end-of-battle" thing..
    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

    THE DEADLY SHINGEN



  19. #19
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    Mitch,
    Ok, I think you are right for ordinary games. If I loose a gunbattle I will try everything I can think of to attack and beat the enemy (sometimes I use my guns or archers only to catch the fire while my shock troops are advancing). But I talked about some strange battles, where I chose to withdraw. Of course you couldn't know this, as I didn't explain it properly. So let me try doing it now.
    This happened once or twice to me, I know for sure once I was the defender. We had some cavalry clashes on the flanks, I won but lost most of my cavs. Can't remember all of the battle, but somehow it happened, that when my guns broke (ran away), I had only two half dead groups of naginata and perhaps 10 to 15 cavs and a small unit of archers without arrows. The enemy still had about 120 guns and his some of his shock troops left, He didn't attack (I dunno why, cause he would have won easily) and continued killing my guys with his gunners. So I retreated. I had about 90-120 men left. But try to attack gunners with groups of 30 Naginata, that won't work. I couldn't see the point of throwing my men into the gunfire. So I turned round and told them to walk home. By the way the enemy still didn't follow me. He just moved his gunners a bit.

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    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

  20. #20
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    to ur question.... it isnt unhonourable to withdraw...


    its just a question, why i should do this?

    i personal know wich map i join and if its a hilly map, i know that the defender surely will camp there, but this did i know!

    so i wouldnt retreat or draw back, i always fight till the last men and it happens oft enought that i can win with just a few units

    i never give up....

    BUT, everyone can do what he want, thats ur choice...

    koc

  21. #21
    Toda Nebuchadnezzar
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    Indeed Koc. But if people want to withdraw one exhausted and depleted unit then it is fair game to them.


    Retreating is perfectly fair, in my opinion, if the retreater understands that it wasnt a draw because it wasnt a fight to the finish.

    I have played people who have retreated but claimed a draw because i didnt kill all of their units...
    Interesting theory to say the least!

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  22. #22

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    if you withdraw, you spared your imaginary men, but you lost, plain and simple.
    quote:You can gaze upon the lords, but looking at the shogun will make you blind; and the emperor cannot be seen at all. -Old Japanese saying

  23. #23
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    Deathonapalehorse: If my last 40 men die fighting against 200 enemies, I loose too.

    Krasturak: I don't share your opinion
    "So long as there is any possibility of geting more kills on the enemy, it is your duty to attack with all your might in the hopes of destroying even just one of the opposing force."
    I think its a generals duty to save his men, if he can't succeed in a battle. He has to save them to be able to strike back another day. When a battle is lost its no use to order your men to fight an enemy just to kill some enemies, because you will loose much more men. The "never withdraw, hold position till you die" strategy is nothing but a stubborn way of thinking that kills your own men (e.g. the germans at Stalingrad). Of course there are some situations where this order makes sense e.g. Leonidas and his 400 spartans who held back the persians and covered the retreating bulk of the greek army. Or the swiss troops defending a bridge over the Beresina enabling Napoleon to retreat at least some men out of russia. In Shogun sacrificing even your last men makes sense in a 2 vs. 2, there its your duty to try everything to help him even if you have only one single wet musketeer or an archer without arrows left.

    Toda: Lol (funny theory), of course the one that retreats looses the battle. I would never claim a draw if i retreat.

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    Bomilkar Date

    [This message has been edited by BomilkarDate (edited 02-23-2002).]
    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

  24. #24
    Member Member james's Avatar
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    dont think so

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  25. #25
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    So James, what do you think?

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    Bomilkar Date
    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

  26. #26
    Member Member james's Avatar
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    i think that yur a piece of sh*t
    Well Shogun will be the last Total War game for James unless he gets a PC - monkian



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  27. #27
    member of ELITE-FORCE Member BomilkarDate's Avatar
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    James, keep cool and tell me why you dont share my opinion. That would be much more useful, than what you just posted.

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    Strength and honour

    Bomilkar Date
    When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.

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