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Thread: Command and Control on MP

  1. #1
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    What types of controls do you use during battle? Whats your main problem?

    Currently I only use

    1. Grouping (no ctrl+num). I select the groups by clicking on the screen. Usually I have 5 groups.
    2. Alt+left drag to position units/groups
    3. Alt+rotate unit/group to change facing
    4. Mouse to navigate


    My major problem with controls are

    1. Going to the unit/group fast enough after clicking, to issue command.
    2. Tried using way-point but I have problem going back to the unit after it reaches end point. So it stay idling.
    3. Units stay idle in heat of battle. These usually happen when I select a group and alt+click at a spot just in front of the enemy group. While they are on the move, I will select the individual units in the group their target unit. Thing is, at times, I'm not fast enough, and one will stop after reaching location, and I've not select its target (and it get shot at by missile).


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  2. #2
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    While where on this subject i have a question......
    If u pick 4 muskets in this order;

    Mus h1 mus h2 mus h3 mus h4 when u group them,then click and drag they dont end up in this order?
    How u get them to line up in this order?



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  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Gah!

    Krast always uses the ctrl-number key assignments.

    Never uses physical (g-key) groupings except to change the facing of the whole army or large number of units together.

    Alt-left drag is Krast's preferred method for placing units. Including number groups.

    And mouse navigation, too ... when it gets laggy the keypad navigation can create disorientation.
    ------
    Try going to the unit group by first double-clicking on the big white army banner at the foot odf the screen. That automatically takes the camera to the position immediately behind the unit.

    Then you can select the units and issue the orders.

    Use the same method for problem 2.

    For problem 3 try clicking at a point behind the enemy position. Then your men will move right in and engage the enemy -- although you probably won't get the charge bonus unless you actually issue the precise attack order in time. But the men will fight that way ... or they march through a gap and are set up for a nice rear attack.

    Notice that the men are sheltered from missile fire by melee with eneemy troops.

    [This message has been edited by Krasturak (edited 02-02-2002).]

  4. #4
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
    While where on this subject i have a question......
    If u pick 4 muskets in this order;

    Mus h1 mus h2 mus h3 mus h4 when u group them,then click and drag they dont end up in this order?
    How u get them to line up in this order?

    [/QUOTE]GAH! GAH! GAH! Does Krast know the answer to this one???
    Or anybody come to that matter........



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  5. #5
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    Sorry Shoko I don't, but I'd like to know the answer too! It's annoying cos I end up with my gen on the right flank...so I have to manually move him.

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  6. #6
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Shoko, I have similar concern which I voiced out on a thread in MTW.

    I have a group of A B C D layout in order. I 'de-group' B, and alt+left on the group to move it to a new position, say front. Instead of staying in A C D order, it usually becomes D C A!

    Krast, thanks for your tips on my problem 3.

    I also notice vet using this method after reviewing recorded battles. But question is, in this way when your units contacted enemy units with the destination behind them, your units will not engage but will be in moving stance, while the enemy is hacking at it.
    Maybe this is still better than stopping in front of the missile and at shot at point-blank.

    Another question. It is possible to alt+left drag a group such that the group will move off in double quick time without applying the run key? 'cos I will reassign the run key to [z] (hate ctrl+r), but it seems buggy (sometimes they don't run before I hit [z] several times).
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Gah!

    Krast's answer to the musket problem is this: make them all hon 5. Then they will line up fine ... and stay there!

    For the ABCD, yeah, it's wierd ... try using AB group and CD group, then they go where you want them -- but you have to order each group.

    Actually, these methods have a big effect on play style .... when Krast discovered the reverse ABCD --> DBAC effect, he stopped using large groups.

    After a left-drag you have to give the run command. Works fine in SP but in MP it lags ... so you don't see the effect right away. Not sure if multiple ctrl-r commands create problems, but one is enough.

    Same with rally, actually. You only have to issue one rally command, not a million. It just lags a little.

  8. #8

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    for me the game speed is a bit too high

    esp in teh heat of battle. the speed in the demo was better i think.

    my khan uses just 4 groups since his keyboard handling kinda suck.

    he uses the order of which they appear in a row like h1 h2 musk as a given fact.

    a part of the skill is how u micromanaga things so try to make priorities on what is important and what is less important.

    after u msatered things like the shoot out and the rush to get to your enemy, making the right decisions when hth starts becomes highly important. A little luck is needed as well.
    quote:I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well

  9. #9
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Krasturak:

    Try going to the unit group by first double-clicking on the big white army banner at the foot odf the screen. That automatically takes the camera to the position immediately behind the unit.

    [/QUOTE]


    I use that too, but the camera move is still too slow for me. Usually what I do is double-click (it starts to zoom to unit), and hit [-], and camera immediate jumps to the unit. But is there a single key stroke that literally bring you to that unit, without all the camera motion.

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  10. #10
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
    While where on this subject i have a question......
    If u pick 4 muskets in this order;

    Mus h1 mus h2 mus h3 mus h4 when u group them,then click and drag they dont end up in this order?
    How u get them to line up in this order?

    [/QUOTE]I have worked out how to get ur guns etc in the correct order!
    Also same for melee units it took me hours to work this 1 out.
    It very complicated but u get the hang of it.
    Order picking for guns is different from picking ur mellee.I dont know why this is?
    Really hard to xplain.
    Pick 4 guns last when buying units!
    Try this h1 h2 h3 h4. OK
    When game begins they should look like this!
    h4 h3 h2 h1.
    OK now CTRL left click.. h4,h1,h2,h3.....
    Now ALT left click drag........

    Now they line up like this h4,h3,h2,h1.
    For melee its much more complex but ive worked it out! Cant really xplain this 1 far to hard.



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  11. #11
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    i posted my standart army already....

    i use normaly 7 or 8 hotkeys and i change groups in battle, it depends on the situation

    the "G" key i just use to mve my whole army in formation, in other way i dont use this button...

    krast u do a fatal error, how i could read in ur post, plz speak to me if u see me online i want to explain it privat...

    i dont have probs with using my army, i just wished there where some more butons, like

    line up-button, this means if i use 4 guns and select them all the puter "say" which unit is frist, wich second.... sometimes if u regroop this units or splitt up the right unit move left or the left move right ...this costs men and time...

    same if u group 2 nd and 1 monk (example) mostly the higher honourunit is setup inside
    i wished i could say wich unit is where...

    koc

  12. #12
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:


    same if u group 2 nd and 1 monk (example) mostly the higher honourunit is setup inside
    i wished i could say wich unit is where...

    koc
    [/QUOTE]Kocmoc if u group these 2nd and 1 monk u can line them up in which order u want!
    Ctrl and left click each unit,then group them.Alt Click and drag........
    Now try CTRL left click each unit in a different order.Then group and drag as before,they line up different.
    Like i said it can be done,u just need to click them in the correct order.Took me hours to work the system out.
    So if i have ND1 ND2 ND3 Monk1 Monk2 Monk3.
    I can line them up in which order i like
    ie;MK1 ND1 MK2 MK3 ND2 ND3.
    It very strange how it works to get them to line up in correct order.
    Maybe this could be implimented in MEvalW
    So they line up as u see them in the Panel?
    Would make life mich easier

    Gah! also Kocmoc why talk to Krast about his fatal error?Why not post here about it,to help others not make these kind of mistakes?



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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by tootee:

    I use that too, but the camera move is still too slow for me. Usually what I do is double-click (it starts to zoom to unit), and hit [-], and camera immediate jumps to the unit. But is there a single key stroke that literally bring you to that unit, without all the camera motion.

    [/QUOTE]

    After you do the double-click, any camera command, scroll, tilt, anything ... imediately puts the camera view there. Or you can let it fly across the field.


    [This message has been edited by Krasturak (edited 02-03-2002).]

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:

    same if u group 2 nd and 1 monk (example) mostly the higher honourunit is setup inside
    i wished i could say wich unit is where...

    koc
    [/QUOTE]

    Gah! ... Krast has found that the sequence of selection has an effect on their placement.

    Try a group of two Dach and one Monk.

    Some times, the Monk is in the middle, sometimes on the end ...

    It depends which one you click first to build the group.
    --------
    Oooops ... Someone else just said that sorry.

    [This message has been edited by Krasturak (edited 02-03-2002).]

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    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    LOL Krast! Yes there is a way........
    Ive just about got the hang of doin it,all up here in my mind! *Shuts Krasts! Coffin*

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    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Hey this could really be a interesting thread plzs all post,we could find some interesting results.
    How ya all mov ur armies?

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  17. #17
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Bump!LOL

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  18. #18
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Krasturak:
    After you do the double-click, any camera command, scroll, tilt, anything ... imediately puts the camera view there. Or you can let it fly across the field.

    [
    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed Krast m8. But [-] is best 'cos other buttom will move the camera ([-] tilt down will still have the unit in focus).


    Koc m8, your concern of of the switching musk is my most concerned control issue (i.e. my ABCD problem). Since I don't use ctrl+num, frequently I need to detech units from my group, afterwhich applying the ctrl+left drag to form up the group means the units within the group will switch.. Gah! really annoy me, not only it's a waste of time, it's not logical.



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  19. #19
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
    Hey this could really be a interesting thread plzs all post,we could find some interesting results.
    How ya all mov ur armies?
    [/QUOTE]

    I think I suffer penalty moving the whole army for not using ctrl+num. All I can do is ctrl+a and move the army to a new position, but I cant group all (the whole army) to change facing, since I'll then lose my groupings. So I gotta change facing for each of my groups (5 normally).

    Know any top 100 players that dont use ctrl+num? Maybe I gotta try out this control mechanism.

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  20. #20
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
    LOL Krast! Yes there is a way........
    Ive just about got the hang of doin it,all up here in my mind! *Shuts Krasts! Coffin*
    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe a short explanation here? It's a waste of time for doing double work, since you already have it figured out

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  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member Rath's Avatar
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    I've never used crtl - number...i rarely even use alt...i just get my groups at the start of the battle and use my mouse for everything except moving the camera. If you know where your groups are at the bottom i dont think u need the number thing.

  22. #22
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    alt+left drag is quite useful when you wanna position one unit over another. Have you ever try starting the battle with 16 units all squeezed into one unit space

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  23. #23
    Senior Member Senior Member Rath's Avatar
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    Yeh i did it something like that in an all kensai game...16 kensai's morphed into one

  24. #24
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Since I'm very interest to know shoko comments, I spent a couple of hrs to find out more and these are what I realised.

    1. The units banner at the bottom of screen are listed from left to right in order of

    [HC][YC][CA][SA][ARQ][MK][NI][WM][ND][YS][YA][BN][KS][NC]

    Within each type, the units are listed from left to right in order of LIFO (last in first out of purchase order).


    The followings refer to the selection of units to form group and their resultant formation after alt+left drag. The number within the [] indicate the order of your ctrl+left click when adding to group, [1] means 1st unit added to group.

    2. WM, ND, NC (or mix of these)
    [4][11][6][13][2][9][16][1][8][15][3][10][7][14][5][12]

    3. SA, ARQ, MK (or mix of these)
    [6][13][1][8][15][4][11][3][10][5][12][2][9][16][7][14]

    4. CA
    [1][8][15][3][10][5][12][7][14][6][13][4][11][2][9][16]

    5. YC
    [1][8][15][6][13][3][10][5][12][14][11][7][14][2][9][16]

    6. HC
    [2][9][16][6][13][4][11][1][8][15][5][12][7][14][3][10]

    7. YS, YA (or mix of these)
    [4][11][6][13][1][8][15][3][10][2][9][16][7][14][5][12]

    8. NI
    [6][13][4][11][2][9][16][1][8][15][3][10][5][12][7][14]

    However if you mix say 2. with 7., you get different order.

    This explain my ABCD problem complete. E.g. take the case where I form a group of musks in order of adding to group M1 M2 M3 M4.

    Alt+left drag will result in formation
    M1 M4 M3 M2 (see 3.)

    If I 'degroup' unit M1, the group of musks in order of adding to group is M2 M3 M4.

    Alt+left drag will result in formation
    M2 M4 M3 (what's why all three switch relative positions! Gah illogical)

    Just some interesting but probably useless info



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  25. #25
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Pick 4 guns last when buying units!
    Try this h1 h2 h3 h4. OK
    When game begins they should look like this!
    h4 h3 h2 h1.
    OK now CTRL left click.. h4,h1,h2,h3.....
    Now ALT left click drag........
    Now they line up like this h4,h3,h2,h1.
    Trust me it does work!But melee units line up different from guns dont ask me why they just do.
    Maybe Krast can xplain how it works,i just dont know where to start its complex.But easy when know how



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  26. #26
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Does it work tottee?

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  27. #27
    the goldfish Senior Member tootee's Avatar
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    Shoko,

    If you are referring to musk thingy, it works. From 3. above, since there's only 4 musk unit, the layout order is

    [1][4][3][2] where the number within [] is the order you add the musk to group (ctrl+left click). You can do it even with musk/sa combo.

    If you have 5 musk/sa, the layout will be
    [1][4][3][5][2]

    Cheers!

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    [This message has been edited by tootee (edited 02-06-2002).]
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  28. #28
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    I was wondering those ppl who use ctrl numbers 1to0 to move they're armies.
    Guns hot-key 5
    YS hot-key 4 and so on are thse units then Grouped? (G)KEY..........
    .............................................
    Another way;
    If u just group(G)Key the guns etc, u can select each group u have grouped by holding CTRL... left click on 1 of the grouped units in the panel in front of u,this will get all that group u grouped before battle,thus no need for hotkeying ur units to numbers.Only 1 big problem with this,if have alot of lag it takes forever to get ur mouse pointer down to ur unit panel Also this is a big prob if u ALT click and drag ur units into positon.
    I would like all vets to post their methods of movement etc.Will help alot of newbie's like myself
    My method is CTRL A and rush with all Maybe this is why i lose so much

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  29. #29

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    Very helpful info guys on the group order because I tend to group my lines so I can rotate them easily if necessary or advance the line as a whole. If I want to advance a single YS to intecept an enemy cav, I want to pick the closest YS. It's not a problem if my YS is in view, but, if I have to scroll to see them, it wastes precious seconds. Knowing the order will allow me to pick the closest YS from the icons.

    I think the most efficient system is the one Kocmoc uses with pairs of units assigned to hotkeys. If you have an extra button on your mouse, you can assign that to CTRL making it easier to select the keyboard numbers. The trick here is to have a system so you know the relative position in your army of each set of hotkeyed units. Hunting around on the number keys for a certain set is inefficient. I think you can assign ungrouped units to a hot key. Once the hth fighting starts, you go to individual unit orders.

    I've found that, if you are going to redraw or move a group, it's important to remove routed units before redrawing it. I've also found that redrawing of groups will sometimes not work later on in a battle.

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  30. #30
    Member Member Shoko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:


    I think the most efficient system is the one Kocmoc uses with pairs of units assigned to hotkeys. Hunting around on the number keys for a certain set is inefficient.

    MizuYuuki ~~~
    Clan Takiyama ~~~

    [/QUOTE]???Kocmoc uses hotkey numbers 1to0 u say most efficient......Then u say hunting around for number hotkeys is inefficient?
    Have i read something wrong here
    Are these hotkeys number units grouped?Or just hotkeyed?

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    [This message has been edited by Shoko (edited 02-06-2002).]

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