Historical Question: France 1089

[Sandbag]

Hi

I have been reading a few web pages regarding Medieval Europe.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1090map.htm

I have noticed that in 1090 the only part of France to be under English/Norman control was Normandy. There is no reference to Anjou or Aquitaine being under english/norman control until much later.

I have since changed the early.txt file and removed Anjou and Aquitaine from English control so that it is more realistic. It has gave me a harder campaign but a good one.

Does anyone know more info regarding the state of france in 1089.

Thanks

[MonkeyMan]

Hi Sandbag, welcome to the org

Have to say i'm not entirely sure, but it does seem that England gained control over Aquitaine later than 1090 as you say (Henry II marrying Elanor of Aquitaine 11something). I suppose the reason for a lot of the decisions are game balancing issues. For example France with the addition of Aquitaine, makes the game far easier for them and far harder for the english. Also in practice the game map is simply supposed to represent the 'early' period of the game, hence it could be argued that the english historically had control of this territory for the majority of that period.

I suppose the justification simply comes down to making an enjoyable game, and an attempt to represent a complex situation as best as you can. So far as I know the state of France in that period could be described as changable anyhow, with various provinces like anjou, normandy, brittany and aquitaine seemingly maintaining some distance from the kings and queens that claimed ownership of them. Anyhow hope your having fun with the game, i'd be interested to know if you dig up any more maps/websites etc.

[the Black Prince]

aquitaine came into english possesion, as monkeyman said, by the marriage of henryII and elearnore of aquitiane. can't give you the exact date, but it was around the early 1200s/late 1100s.

anjou i'm no sure about. but at this time, the feench throne as it was had fairly nominal control over france. powerful and often warring duchies ruled france. brittany and Normandy being 2 of these, places like Lorraine, and Alencon and gascony (aquitaine) as well.
these duchy's i believe came about as a result of tribes within the frankish nation, such as the normans. with the normans gaining the english throne, i think the french unoited under 1 leader... to oppose them gaining control of france as well, the normans being very powerful.

[Plantagenet]

1. The Dukes of Normandy claimed sovereignty over Brittany before 1066, and Louis VII of France allowed Henry II to conquer it and appoint his own Duke. When Henry later installed his son Geoffrey as Duke, he made him do homage to his eldest son Henry as Duke of Normandy. So Normandy claimed, and France accepted, that Brittany was feudally dependent on the Duchy of Normandy.

2. William I, William II, and Henry I all claimed the County of Maine (northern Anjou). This issue wasn't settled until Geoffrey Plantagenet married Matilda the Empress, at which time all of Anjou was joined with England & Normandy.

3. The lordship over Brittany and Anjou originally stemmed from the fact that the Dukes considered Normandy the successor/replacement of Neustria (everything north of the Loire & west of Blois/Ile de France). So the original sphere of influence of the Norman Dukes/Kings (equivalent to old Neustria) included Normandy, Anjou, & Brittany.

4. Aquitaine wasnt obtained until the marriage of Henry II & Eleanor of Aquitaine (1152). Before that, Eleanor was married to King Louis VII of France, who called himself Duke of Aquitaine in her name.

5. So if you need to start England out with more territories for game balance reasons, it should own Normandy, Anjou, & Brittany, while Aquitaine should go to France.

[the Black Prince]

yes indeed, in fact william 1 and harold ride and attack brittany before edward the confessor dies. its in the bayeux tapestry i think

the hundred years ar has a similar but different reason, edward II married a french princess, so when her father died, edward III had a legitimate claim to the throne

[iostephanos]

Quote[/b] (Sandbag @ Jan. 26 2004,11:07)]Hi

I have been reading a few web pages regarding Medieval Europe...

assuming that you may later broaden the scope of your study outside of france and england, from the same map it should be clear that georgia (from 8xx, i think, at least), lessor armenia, and naples should be taken from the byz. empire; the first two independent (though i don't know if armenia minor was a client state), and naples really should belong to the 'sicilians' by this time - byz. holdings, if any, being reduced to a small part of the heel, which of course can't be represented.

steph

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Welcome to the ORG, Sandbag

Very interesting question.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Plantagenet @ Jan. 26 2004,18:56)]4. Aquitaine wasnt obtained until the marriage of Henry II & Eleanor of Aquitaine (1152). Before that, Eleanor was married to King Louis VII of France, who called himself Duke of Aquitaine in her name.

5. So if you need to start England out with more territories for game balance reasons, it should own Normandy, Anjou, & Brittany, while Aquitaine should go to France.

One may argue that the claim of England on Acquitany was legitimate: they didn't conquer it by arms, but by marriage. Since the game doesn't allow this (no female rulers, and no unions of two countries by marriage), CA decided to represent England's claim to Acquitany by making it their territory. Since this is what it was for most of the 'early' period.

[Plantagenet]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 27 2004,11:41)]

Quote[/b] (Plantagenet @ Jan. 26 2004,18:56)]4. Aquitaine wasnt obtained until the marriage of Henry II & Eleanor of Aquitaine (1152). Before that, Eleanor was married to King Louis VII of France, who called himself Duke of Aquitaine in her name.

5. So if you need to start England out with more territories for game balance reasons, it should own Normandy, Anjou, & Brittany, while Aquitaine should go to France.

One may argue that the claim of England on Acquitany was legitimate: they didn't conquer it by arms, but by marriage. Since the game doesn't allow this (no female rulers, and no unions of two countries by marriage), CA decided to represent England's claim to Acquitany by making it their territory. Since this is what it was for most of the 'early' period.

I agree, but I thought the original poster was asking was it English, or did they even have a claim to it, at the start of the game (1087). They didn't own it or lay claim to it until 1152.

But they did however, possess or hold claims to Normandy, Anjou, & Brittany in 1087. France, on the other hand, held suzerainty over Aquitaine prior to 1152, and Louis VII of France was Duke of Aquitaine until 1152.

So in my opinion, if he wants a more historical start, England should start Normandy & Anjou (as is), but switch Brittany for Aquitaine (same # of territories, so game-balance preserved).

[ShadesWolf]

This is a very quick summary of French History from my web site....

Quote[/b] ]Under the early members of the Capetian dynasty the effective power of the king was greatly limited by powerful feudal lords. The beginning of the 11th century saw the kings power confined to Ile de France, the counts controlled the rest of France. The counts wielded governmental powers; they minted coins, raised troops and built castles, the last a powerful expression of autonomy. The counts did not seek to replace the King, they scarcely needed to do so. Some of the counts, such as the count of Champagne were as powerful as the king. Further more, Gascony and Toulouse, both south of the Loire, were a sufficient distance from Paris to be little concerned about its Capetian rulers. North of the Loirs, however, rivalry between the powerful local feudatories and the crown was most important. The Dukes of Normandy, meanwhile, competed with the Capetains for control of the Vexin in the northwest of Paris. The idea of a powerful monarchy was kept alive by the Church, but there was little basis to it in the 11th Century.


In 911 Charles the simple had conceded Rouen and the lower Seine valley to a viking group led by Rollo, who extended their authority to the west and took over the entire area now as Normandy; They would be later now as the Normans. In 1066, William Duke of Normandy conquered England with a small force. The conquest of England was just one of a series of successful military adventures which brought them large territories in southern Italy and Sicily.

The French kings Henry I (1031-60) and Philip I (1060-1108) sought to increase royal power in France, a goal challenged by the power of their vassals, the Dukes. No where more, than in Normandy, where the conquest of England had strengthened the Normans. Louis VI (1108-37) and Louis VII (1137-80) struggles to expand the power of the Capetians in France, but a major setback occured in 1152 when Louis VII allowed his divorced wife Eleanor of Aquitaine to marry Henry, Count of Anjou, soon to be Henry II of England, thereby losing effective control of a large portion of southern France. Henry was now the most powerful ruler in France, as he had also inherited Normandy. Henry used his power to resolve inheritance disputes in his favour, gaining control of Brittany and more land in southern France.

I also seem to remember that in the battel Hasting that one of Williams allies was the Duke of Brittany.....


Also it might be a idea to look at my page on The Normans..

THE NORMANS

BTW which reminds me, I need to add a few more entries to my History of England.

[el_slapper]

France was indeed far from being centralized at those times. As vassalization is not implemented in MTW as it is in EU2, for example, most of the country should be rebel... Neither English, nor French. But that would only be marginally better. The truth is, MTW engine can not represent correctly the patchwork of alliances & overlords & vassals that France was at those times.

Current setup, at least, is good for gameplay. That fits my requirements.

[Ludens]

Thank you for your explanation Shadeswolf.

Plantagenet

Quote[/b] ]I agree, but I thought the original poster was asking was it English, or did they even have a claim to it, at the start of the game (1087). They didn't own it or lay claim to it until 1152.

True, and I answered that it was perhaps historical, but the game couldn't properly 'replay' history in this case, so CA decided to do it this way.

El_slapper
I'm curious as to how EU2 implements vassalization. Is every province a faction on itself?