When playing as the Mongols, have found that their Heavy Cavalry will destroy just about every other unit type on the battlefield 1 on 1 [assuming equal honour etc] including Japanese Heavy cavalry. Game balance issues aside, surely the Mongols couldn't have been this good? This also seems to devalue all the other 'good' units in the game - Naginata seem little better than Yari Ashigaru when faced with a Mongol Heavy Cavalry charge.....
Truthfully, I'd rather have the Ashi if facing a MHC charge as mobs of Ashi or YS are the ONLY thing that gave my MHC pause when I played the campaign. The AI should just make a mixture of YS, YA, and YC - archers and other infantry are pointless against Mongols and most Cav is too slow and non-offensive to last.
I'm not sure how accurate they are historically speaking but if they're even close, you can see how they conquered everything in their way
Have just 'tested out' the 1.02 patch - the invincibility of the mongol Heavy Cavalry seems to have been toned down a bit...
Historically, I don't believe that the Mongols would have cut through Samurai troops that easily - after all the Samurai's entire way of life was geared to warfare. Well, it's all hypothetical anyway.
[This message has been edited by DojoMojo (edited 03-08-2002).]
Even at 60 vs 60 a same honor naginata infantry will beat the MHC in even grounds.
------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness
Quote Originally posted by DojoMojo:
Historically, I don't believe that the Mongols would have cut through Samurai troops that easily - after all the Samurai's entire way of life was geared to warfare. Well, it's all hypothetical anyway.
[This message has been edited by DojoMojo (edited 03-08-2002).][/QUOTE]
Trudat.
In fact, when the Mongols DID land and faced the samurai in Kyushu, the quality of the Mongol weaponry proved vastly inferior to that of the Japs. Thus, the Japs would just slice through their weapons like butter and render them useless. How do you fight a raging bastid wielding a sword when you have but your bear hands (and you are NOT Jet Li)?
So... all the honor and talent in the world would have been pissed away if a grueling H2H melee had ever ensued. But, Mongols were about arrows, and that (standoff) they did very well.
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 03-08-2002).]
[Sips sake, eats popcorn]
i line of spears will hold them, and a few more to slowly encircle the hev cav don't hurt.
the 1.02 patch did most definitely address the invincible mongols, and not just their heavy cav. a number of tweaks were done to balance things. but yes, mongol heavy cav are argueably the best unit in the game, even now. just remember that spears will almost always beat cav (and are cheaper) and you'll be ok.
K.
------------------
The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Quote Originally posted by Kraellin:
the 1.02 patch did most definitely address the invincible mongols, and not just their heavy cav. a number of tweaks were done to balance things. but yes, mongol heavy cav are argueably the best unit in the game, even now. just remember that spears will almost always beat cav (and are cheaper) and you'll be ok.
[/QUOTE]
I never played with them before the patch, so if these are toned down MHC, I shudder to think of how they must have been before
"Great Mongol Lord, I see an unprotected flank; what should we do?"
"Hmm... Let me think about this. Oh, yeah, charge the Heavy Cav into it like a fire and forget missile and watch them run like dogs 30 seconds later"
The Mongol troops are so superior that all playing against the AI amounts to is waiting for that unprotected flank or the break in their line and then, boom.
[This message has been edited by Sword_Monkey (edited 03-08-2002).]
Actually, I think the patch really does balance the Mongol units. Am currently beating the Mongols in the campaign and have destroyed some of their heavy Cavalry units by hitting them with Spearmen from 2 sides [downhill is best]. Also, once you start churning out upgraded units, the Mongols really are in trouble.
I love this game!
i always get eradicated,but as you said we gotta love shogun!!
Well Shogun will be the last Total War game for James unless he gets a PC - monkian
Goats will be the death of you.
Vanya,
I read that the Japanese's swords were being damaged on the armour of the mongols. In the 13th century, i don't think the Japanese art of sword making was yet at its' zenith.
As well, the katana wasn't on the battlefield yet, and the long, thiner swords of the earlier sword periods were being used.
------------------
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
mongol heavy cav is very beatable....online i can hold off 2 mongol heavy cavs hounour 4 with just one hounour 6 spearmen group. I suck at managing musks so a play mongol era all the time.
I shall defeat you!
Quote Originally posted by theforce:
Even at 60 vs 60 a same honor naginata infantry will beat the MHC in even grounds.
[/QUOTE]
Really? It's near IMPOSSIBLE for a MHC to lose to the slow and cumbersome Naginata.
Pain is weakness leaving the body.
I think that the only real advantage the mongols had against the Japanese was tactical and not technological. Whereas the mongols had well organized armies of men who valued their lives as much as they valued winning, the Japanese were geared more toward the fury and individual experience of battle. And honor? Like Krast would say, Gah! The only honour for the Mongols was winning. You can see picture the Japanese samurai running into battle calling out their own names, seeking an individual for battle, while the Mongols went about fighting cold, methodical and swiftly.
I'm not an expert on Japanese history, but I know a lot of people in the community are, so jump in and tell me what you know.
------------------
Quote You can gaze upon the lords, but looking at the shogun will make you blind; and the emperor cannot be seen at all. -Old Japanese saying
[/QUOTE]
quote:You can gaze upon the lords, but looking at the shogun will make you blind; and the emperor cannot be seen at all. -Old Japanese saying
Yes, you are quite right. at this point in Japanese warfare history, the Japanese had never fought a foreign enemy. Thus, they were only used to fighting each other. This gave way to a highly ritualistic way of combat, where each samurai would seek out an opponent of equal rank yelling out their ancestors names and their exploits in battle, and fight; and so on. Eventually, one commander would sound the general attack and it was every man for himself. However, when the mongols came, the local samurai knew the bakufu was mobilising great armies, but they still raced each other into battle.
But, the mongols didn't play by 'the rules'. when the Japanese bushi went looking for an opponent, the mongols would simply fire arrows and flaming prjectiles at them... that said, after the first dy of fighting of the first invasion in 1274, it is said to have been about equal.. but then came some divine intervention..... KAMIKAZE!
------------------
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
yes thats right
------------------
Takeda:cavalary legend
Takeda:cavalary legend
In my opinion the Mongols had the upper hand in military terms because they were better organized and had a more "advanced" and "realistic" vision of what warfare is than the Japanese.
As mentioned in previous posts, the Japanese were still very into a knightly and romantic conception of warfare, while the mongols assumed war as a professional business where concepts like "glory" or "honor" had not importance.
It is fascinating because the Mongol invasion was a lot more than just a military clash ... in effect it was primordially a cultural clash.
Imagine the meeting between a Japanese Samurai and a Mongol Warrior:
Samurai: Hear me oh you despicable barbarian!!! I have come without fear in my heart to face you in deadly duel. I carry in my shoulders the stainless memories of a hundred generations of brave warriors. I dare you to try to strike me, oh you worthless foreigner.... Aghhh!!!
Mongol: Okay. Take this.
Samurai: Ouch!!! You despicable foreigner, alien to the true meaning of honor, you will learn to fear the samurai's wrath which is like a thousand hurricanes of fire sweeping on the battlefield. I dare you to hit me again... you puny blows can't shatter my indomitable spirit .... Ouch!!!
Mongol: Okey. Here you go
Samurai: Arghhhh!!! ... It doesn't matter how many times you hit me, oh you abominable barbarian!!! My soul will rise from my dead body as the graceful willow rises after the storm. I will return to the fray riding with my blade riding the wind, an irressitible shadow of revenge and fury and ... Argggh!!!!
Mongol: Whatever.... What a strange guy. He didn't fight worth squat ... but sure he talked cool.
Hrmm,
no wonder why i was whopping the japanese with my calvary.
Muhahaa
------------------
Everyman dies, but not everyman truly lives.
Everyman dies, but not everyman truly lives.
Even so, the Japanese did still fight the Mongols to a standstill, and then retreated behind earthworks for the night. The Mongols, coaxed back to their ships by the Koreans, got kicked by a Taifun ; the survivors were slaughtered.
------------------
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
lol, I think Choco nailed the dialogue.
quote:You can gaze upon the lords, but looking at the shogun will make you blind; and the emperor cannot be seen at all. -Old Japanese saying
Quote Originally posted by DeathOnaPaleHorse:
lol, I think Choco nailed the dialogue.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I think so too. But he forgot to mention Buddha's compassion. A small deduction from an otherwise flawless rendition...
[Sips sake, eats popcorn]
Oh... yeah, almost forgot! A little-known fact about the Mongol experience in Kyushu...
The Japs had never experienced war as that offered by the Mongol cavalry. Sure, they had seen horse archers and what not. But what they were not prepared for was the aerial bombardment corps. Here is how it worked: The front line of Mongol heavy cavalry would feed their horses the night before until they were stuffed. The following day, they would lead the charge on the Jap lines. These cavalry would not strike the enemy, but would make their horses leap over the astounded Japs. While airborne over the Japs, the riders would spike their horses, causing them to empty their bowels all over the enemy below. Now, the Japs would be thoroughly confused. And while they were wiping the shit from their face, the second line would ride in and cut their heads off with the same ease they chopped watermelons off poles during training.
This was the primary tactic that earned the Mongols the monicker "the Devil's Horsemen".
[Sips sake, eats popcorn]
Jesus Vanya....
God I get such a kick out of you "historians"!
yeah. how many times have i heard Vanya tell that one. ;0
------------------
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
*throws dinner away to the dog*
Cheers and it was steak night aswell!!
No but seriously very interesting.
------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
Choco,
Great rendition of the noble samurai. I think you captured it well.
------------------
"To fight is to live"
"To fight is to live"
Mongol cavalry are tough to handle at the beginning, but they are not so tough after you have a some armour and weapon upgrades.
YS and NG will do well on MHC. Use YS to hold them then flank with NG.
I personally found that MLC is a bit harder to handle compare to MHC. MLC is the fastest in the game. MLC is like CA combine with YC. MLC can do much damage against light armoured unit (especially SA and crossbowman). MLC can engage at range as well as conduct H2H combat. YC will have a tough time to chase them down. The only good way to beat MLC is to trap them between two or more units.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks