How to use CA Effectivally

[KensaiAkechi]

Ok can someone plz explain to me how to succsecfully use CA? ive tried a few different things and they always seem to get their A** kicked.

[Vanya]

Some simple things to start...

1. Aim the arrows at the enemy.
2. Charge in wedgie formation.
3. Avoid Benny Hill routines for prolonged periods of time.
4. Face guns, eat dirt! So avoid guns! (Unless you are charging them in wedgie formation, of course...)

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Protect them from Yari Cav also.

YC are the major danger to cav archers other than guns. If your gonna use CA's h2h - make sure they are flankers ONLY - otherwise they eat too much fire charging ranged units - and get eat up by infantry that can face them.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

[Rath]

Keep YC and YS close to them for support if u are harrassing the enemy's flank as it will protect them from being charged by Cav.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

One thing to renember is they get the second highest charge bonus in the game, next to Yari Cav.

I like to spread'em out thin, this makes htem more accurate and takes advantage of there charge bonus. Alota people use these guys at honour 0, but give'em some good honour and you'd be suprised at what they can do. I like to keep equall numbers of Yari Cav and CA. CA can beat No dachi and WM if you keep them away and pelt with arrows, drawing them out of formation. Then, when exposed, hit a flank with a CA and the front with YC. This usually ends even a high honour WM unit.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I tend to stray from the CA. Yes they are good, but when trying to organise a 12-unit frontal assault and also having to get flankers up (being the CA) is difficult to co-ordinate as it is. But not even using them as flankers simply ranged units that tempt enemy units out of their line, is very hard to manage while still attempting an attack.

But in defense they can be helpful if they are hidden in trees to your left out of the way. Then when they enemy is engaged you can come in from the side and and fire at them, or just move to the back beat off their ranged units and hit the rear of their line. This should make them crumble unless they have reserves.



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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Koga No Goshi]

I pretty much just use Cav Archers to do some "picking" on the enemy frontline (monks or nodachi if possible, otherwise try to hit their front guns from an oblique angle, diagonally from the left or right, not straight-on in front of them) and then once H2H is engaged, swing them around the flanks to hit the archers or guns from the flank or rear. Other than that, they're not too useful, just like regular archers they'll never be an "uber unit."



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Tac]

Ive never understood why cavalry is so poor against warrior monks and no-dachi. By all rights the cavalry would be able to massacre them because of their mobility and long spears/higher vantage point for their own swords. Or why a cavalry unit cant break an enemy formation of no-dachi or WMonks either.. a wedged cavalry charge would and should easily scatter the men making them easy pickings for other cavalry or infantry units.

[Cheetah]

HC is very good against WM and nodachi, Nag.C is very good against nodachi and good against WM and even YC can stand up against nodachi. CA is a weakling but there is a trade-off between fire power and h2h combat abilities.

[MikeSan]

Well I think cavalry is good against monks and nodachis. Never senn how nag cav or heavy cav killed weak monks like nothing?

I think CA are good to make the enemy angry. I alaways try to lead some troops of the enemy away. And i try to get units from behind under fire (like yaris or monks,...). But if i am honest i do not really like them...

MikeSan

[Tac]

Err.. custom battles, level terrain, put a group of honor 2 nodachi vs honor 2 yari cav... no -dachi win 9 out of 10. Heavy cav wins half the time. Naginata cav wins all the time (hehe).

[MagyarKhans Cham]

sorry never used them

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by Tac:
Err.. custom battles, level terrain, put a group of honor 2 nodachi vs honor 2 yari cav... no -dachi win 9 out of 10. Heavy cav wins half the time. Naginata cav wins all the time (hehe).[/QUOTE]

Tac, it's not "fair" to test YC and ND in a head-on collision.

For if you don't take advantage of YC's lightning speed you are not doing it right.

Instead, let the YC charge at the flank of the ND and see who break first

Open terrain and level ground is cavarly's heaven, while woods is their bane.

[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 02-19-2002).]

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

But refer it to pre-modern times. Napoleonic Wars. The French Lancers were like the most dangerous things on the field when it came to cavalry. They could charge straight through an infantry unit head on and inflict severe casualties. Or they could wheel around either flank and charge the flank or rear.
Which is why the infantry always used to stand in square formation, or run into some near-by forest. Hard to skewer a man running away when ur lance is stuck in some oak tree cause you missed him and hit it.

Yari cavalry should be able to scatter NoDachi in a head on collision. Both are attacking so both get their charge and attack bonuses, the NoDachi have no armour so they should die quicker.

But lifes not perfect is it.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Gothmog]

I read it somewhere that when two units collide, the one with higher speed swings the 1st round. Meaning that in this case, YC should stab first, then ND fights back. So in an ideal world, the ND should have no chance at all. But then again, once the charge bonus is gone ...

[Rath]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
sorry never used them[/QUOTE]

lol...your honesty precedes you Magyar

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Wow 0.0 I can't BELIVE how many people seem to -think- NC can beat YC.

Thats foolishness.

I tested it 10 times and the YC at equal honour won EVERYTIME against the NC when the computer acctually attacked me head on. Yet EVEN the computer knew it didn't have a chance against the YC and whould constantly try and take a flank..*albeit laughably*SO out of those 10 acctual tests I had to fight the computer like 20 times...~_~ *sigh*

BTW, this was on the ironing board.

Also, be sure NOT to test on hard or very hard. The computers units get a small advantage that human players whouldn't get.

Yari Cavalry get the Yari Bonus against Cavalry, well..it seems smaller then Yari infantry.

*EDIT*OHHH, wait , your talking about ND infantry..*L* Darn Acronyms.

All that conclusive testing for nothing..*sob* Oh well..

And about the french lancers...As cool as Japanese cavalry seems in this game, had Japanese -cavalry- ever had to face its equivalents on the other side of the world they hould have wet there armour. French Lancers arn't the only thing. Polish Husaria and Saxon Knights were also fearsom foes. Now..infantry wise the Japanese may have had an advantage. I'd put my money on Japanese Yari Samurai over Swiss Pikemen any day.

OH! I pose one question to you before I go..

Can 2 H4 CA's beat 1 H4 HC? Dun answer this Magyar..;p

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[This message has been edited by Katasaki Hirojima (edited 02-20-2002).]

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by MikeSan:
Well I think cavalry is good against monks and nodachis. Never senn how nag cav or heavy cav killed weak monks like nothing?

I think CA are good to make the enemy angry. I alaways try to lead some troops of the enemy away. And i try to get units from behind under fire (like yaris or monks,...). But if i am honest i do not really like them...

MikeSan[/QUOTE]


Mikesan,

Since I was mod of Off Topic up until now, I didn't have the time to read General Discussion, so I'm not sure if you've been here awhile or not, but it's good to see you!

Maybe sometime we will attack "Hadion Castle" together.



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Tac]

Yari Samurai ARE pikemen. Their spears being the length of 2 or 3 men.

Its kinda odd that STW does not have sword foot soldiers.. I mean, No-Dachi were NOT the weapon most soldiers had. Would be cool to have a Katana Samurai in the game too.

When I meant Yari Cav. and Heavy Cav. vs No-Dachi and monks in a custome battle, its 1 vs 1 on open, flat terrain. You cant flank a unit when its 1-1.

Either way, the formations of the cavalry (WEDGE) vs the AI's formations do NOT break up the AI formation. I know the AI has them on engage at will 'cause the no-dachi swarm all around my cavalry once the fighting starts.

This is what happens: Cavalry charges in, wedge formation... cavalry point-man hits the first row of no-dachi, "dodges" the first nodachi guy and gets himself in between the first and 2nd row of men. and thats IT. The rest of the cavalry charge STOPS when the point man stops.

Thats BOLLOCKS. The entire cavalry unit shouldve either punched through the entire rows killing at least 8 men in the impact (horses and spears slaming into the man on foot) and either scattering the no-dachis OR splitting them into 2 small groups (where they get hit by the wider portion of the cavalry Wedge).

But STW's system that when 1 unit engages in melee with another one, that unit STOPS and fights it out. That is why your cavalry always gets trapped fighting even archers..they only disengage when they kill their targets or when they rout. Wanna trap the enemy cav? let it charge whatever units and have a yari samurai unit near it ready to sandwich it.

Also to think about, the Yari Samurai are so incredibly vulnerable to monks and no-dachi its not even funny. Yari Samurai would point their spears at the enemy when in formation.. and when the enemy foot soldiers got into range they did NOT just leave the spears hanging there for the foot soldiers to walk through them, they would pull the spear back and shove it foward in a swaying motion... kinda like poking the spear all over the place. And when you have the first 4 rows of men doing that, theres VERY , VERY little chance of a person walking through that alive. That is why in that era OTHER spear units were used to engage the enemy yari sams. in a deadlock of spears and THEN the swordsmen could flank and cut the enemy spears down (and the enemy usually had its own swordsmen to counter that.. so it usually ended up with the yari's poking each other's eyes out until the swordmen won and went after the enemy yari unit).

[evilc]

dont take more than 2 ca unless ur reactions are good.

[Gothmog]

Wedge charge by cavalry? I thought it's so uncessary and so unwise.

[Nelson]

Tac, the archers can be considered katana samurai. Set them to hold fire and that's what you get.

You're right though, the formations are far to rigid, especially for Japan.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

I KNOW Yari Samurai are just a kind of pikemen..but they're also Samurai. They walk into battle with two swords at there side like all Samurai do.

So, who whould you rather fight? A bunch of conscripted Swiss pikemen whos only real advantage was good generals...or Pikemen raised from birth to fight with sword and spear in the face of insurmountable odds...?

YOu see my point.

I also agree completely, cavalry is too rigid and spearmen are to loose.

But dun you ever say Yari CAN'T beat WM. Yari eat ND and even WM for breakfast when the stakes *Read: Koku* is high because the honour margin is greater.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Tac]

"They walk into battle with two swords at there side like all Samurai do."

Thats not exactly true. Spear regiments very rarely carried swords.. and those that did were usually the short katana. When you got a bunch of people in tight formation poking 5 ft long sticks in front, having a scabbard hanging at your side is not a good idea.

"So, who whould you rather fight? A bunch of conscripted Swiss pikemen whos only real advantage was good generals...or Pikemen raised from birth to fight with sword and spear in the face of insurmountable odds...?"

Id go with the Swiss. Having a bad leader with good troops will result in defeat.

"But dun you ever say Yari CAN'T beat WM. Yari eat ND and even WM for breakfast when the stakes *Read: Koku* is high because the honour margin is greater."

Sure, an honor 4 cav. will beat an honor 0 monk.. but it will lose 2/3rds of its horsemen in the process anyway. If by Yari you mean Yari Sams, it will still be the same. I usually need to sick 2 or 3 yari units on a single no-dachi or monk so I can defeat it without sacrificing most of the men in 1 yari regiment. Numbers do affect them.

Although in REAL life an ashigaru or Yari samurai HAD, repeat HAD to be flanked by other units OR faced by another yari unit so it could be flanked. Be them monks, or no-dachi or cavalry.. nothing would fare well charging a wall of spears head-on. In STW you can send monks into a yari sam unit and they walk through the spears until they get into close range combat. HUH?

[Tac]

"Tac, the archers can be considered katana samurai. Set them to hold fire and that's what you get."

Yeah, but they are very expensive because they are archers. I'd love to see a yari sam and ashigaru equivalent of a swordman.

[Jaguara]

Quote Originally posted by Tac:
"Tac, the archers can be considered katana samurai. Set them to hold fire and that's what you get."

Yeah, but they are very expensive because they are archers. I'd love to see a yari sam and ashigaru equivalent of a swordman.[/QUOTE]

Were there Ashigaru swordsmen? Outfitting peasants with pointy sticks is one thing...but I did not think that the peasants were permitted to carry katana - which were the sign of the samauri. I could well be mistaken on this one.

Quote Originally posted by Katasaki Hirojima:
I KNOW Yari Samurai are just a kind of pikemen..but they're also Samurai. They walk into battle with two swords at there side like all Samurai do.

So, who whould you rather fight? A bunch of conscripted Swiss pikemen whos only real advantage was good generals...or Pikemen raised from birth to fight with sword and spear in the face of insurmountable odds...?
[/QUOTE]

Samurai. What is a Samurai...raised from birth to fight...is that much different from a western knight who is raised from birth to fight? Are Samurai really not just the Knights of the japanese culture?

As to your question, swiss pikemen were the best in Europe. If I had to choose between ANY band of Yari Samurai, and the Swiss I would take the Swiss. Now, if you offered me the BEST Yari Samurai in Japan, well that would take more thought.

[Tac]

"Were there Ashigaru swordsmen? Outfitting peasants with pointy sticks is one thing...but I did not think that the peasants were permitted to carry katana - which were the sign of the samauri. I could well be mistaken on this one."

Thats a relative issue. Non-samurai were not allowed to carry swords, yes. Especially true and enforced after the Taiko was in power. BUT when ashigaru regiments were formed in the service of a lord they were provided with swords. Im not sure if they were given Katanas, it would make more sense to give them a cheap sword instead. Believe it or not, it was easier and sometimes better to give them swords than spears. Spears require the unit to be trained to act and fight as a unit, plus spear technique. But give any peasant a sword and they'll use it like a stick to fight with.

The Swiss Pikemen were the first time Europe saw the introduction of INFANTRY into an army unit. Infantry in the sense that it was composed of young men who had been recruited and trained in a systematic fashion. Before the swiss, most armies were either elitist knights with great training and equipment backed up by poorly trained foot or battle hardened veteran mercenaries. The impact a disciplined unit with Pikes had against both the knights and their poorly trained foot soldiers was eye-opening.

But I still stand with my original answer. If you give me the choice between a highly trained and disciplined Yari Samurai BUT with a moron in charge of them or a bunch of regulary trained swiss infantry pikemen WITH a good leader.. ill pick the swiss.

Chances are, my swiss unit will be up the hill and the Samurai unit will follow the moron in command in a charge up the hill on loose formation !

[shingenmitch2]

Tac --

2 things going on here... the REALITY of samurai warfare (about which your I believe your points to be correct.)

and the REALITY of how the game simulates it. The game must be looked up as such. You can't apply true principles of cav/sam warfare to the game.

Thus you can either argue/discuss about simulation problems. OR discuss the tactics of this game. :-)

[MizuKokami]

I don't know...but wasn't this conversation about cav archers?

[pdoan8]

In real life, cavalry can charge and win any type of unit that doesn't carry a long spear (long spear means that it is at least 2 metters or 7 feet long). The real advantage of cavalry is speed and the momentum they have when charging. However, in STW, it is not always applied. In STW, eventhough you have at least 60 little guys in one unit, they all act the same most of the time. One guy engaged usually means the whole unit engaged. That is the reason why cavalry could not charge through a unit or even a small gap between two units.

In STW, YC will lose (most of the time) to all of the H2H combat units if they charge head on. However, they can crush any unit if they charge from the flank or from the rear.

As for Cavalry Archer, it is the unit that I use the less beside BNinja. I rarely train them but only use what I had from the beginning. However, CA can be very usefull if you know how to use them. I had one battle before early in a campaign. I had 2 YC and 2 CA and defend. The AI enemy had 2 YA, 2 SA, 1 ND and commanded by a YS unit. I won the battle with an amazing kill ratio of 351 kill/18 lost. The battle that I will never forget. The advantage I had for that battle was I defend on a plain field (ideal for cavalry). My plan was just run out the time and win, so I keep moving (walk, only run a short distance) all 4 units. Use CA to pick on those H2H combat units and make them chase. Make a big cirlcle on the edge of the map. Shoot at them until they get close then move again. Until my CA empty all arrow, all enemy H2H combat units were reduce to 1/3 of their strength and they were so far apart that they coudn't help each other. Now I use both CA to charge at the SA and both YC to charge at the enemy Taiso. He ran away the moment he saw those cavalry charging on him. Now I just have to chase them down and collect their heads. I was supprised the the CA still can collect quite a few fleeing ND heads.

In short, the only good tactic I can use is keep moving CA and don't use more than 2 of them. Use them to stretch the enemy line or lure an enemy unit out of formation then crush it with YC or HC. After empty their arrow, keep them behind strong defensive units and far form enemy units. They could be usefull later if I need to chase down those SA. If I am on attack, I rarely bring any range units or only a couple Bninjas (they are fast and can hide).

[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 03-22-2002).]