Why the 4 unit Max

[Tytan]

Why the 4-unit Max in on line games

I can't believe that any commander past or present would have limited themseleves to only using a set number of unit types.
So please, someone tell me why this rule is in place and what's wrong with someone wanting to bring an army of more than 4 of any sort of unit. Was the 4-unit rule made by some of the original on line players to save them from having to use more varied and alternating tactics? Preferring to rely on the fact that their opponents will be using an army of a similar type to themselves.

personally i believe it takes away from a player some of his inventiveness and personal style of play, Turning new players into clones of older players and stealing some of the fun of variety.

Plz feel free to put me right about this

[BakaGaijin]

It was made to prevent people from taking 8 Monks and 8 Muskets. It was made to FORCE inventiveness and variety instead of everyone using the same pumped-up 16-YA army.

Whether or not it succeeds at such is another matter for another thread.

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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

Quote Originally posted by BakaGaijin:
It was made to prevent people from taking 8 Monks and 8 Muskets. It was made to FORCE inventiveness and variety instead of everyone using the same pumped-up 16-YA army.

Whether or not it succeeds at such is another matter for another thread.

[/QUOTE]

Yep thats it

You dont wanna see always a 16 YA army yeah?

Anyway, I dont impose a 4-max rule on my enemy, I just say "Im gonna use 4-max, if you do as well you would have my respect, but you're free"

After all, unbalanced armies are normally bad ones. Except when super units are involved.



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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[tootee]

You mean those superAshi? Gah they're are farmers! What do they know about the art of the sword? The only good thing about them is that when they route, they don't bring the whole samurai army with them.. plus they like to route forward towards the enemies

4unit max more of a comp game phenomenon? My person rule is 3 max 90% of time, but then unbalanced armies are fun to use too.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by tootee:
but then unbalanced armies are fun to use too.

[/QUOTE]
Indeed. A too-well balanced army has a little bit of everything and sometime is not strong enough to win the day.

Well, a too-well balanced army is not good, but most unbalanced armies have a weakness (eg. an all monk army is prone to cavs, an all YA army is prone to gunpower) and at the hands of a skilled player, the unbalanced army will endure a good beating.

An army balanced with cavs/missiles/defensive line/offensive line is definetely the best, but that depends much on your playing style. For example I know people who don't have a defensive line behind missiles and also people that don't use cavs - but are succesful all the same - that is what a style of play is all about after all...

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[LordTed]

I will take 16 nd an rush them at you in the rain.........thats my answer

[BakaGaijin]

Or 16 arqs and rush in wedge formation during a thunderstorm.

Anyway, I think that trying to enforce unit limits is idiotic. However, the concept is not altogether unsound. Imagine how boring the game would be if everyone used 16 uber-YA armies!

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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

[Cheetah]

Quote Originally posted by Bakagaijin:

It was made to prevent people from taking 8 Monks and 8 Muskets. It was made to FORCE inventiveness and variety instead of everyone using the same pumped-up 16-YA army.[/QUOTE]

Then why not use a 6-max rule? Or a 6-max MMA rule, i.e. max 6 monks, muskets and ashigaru? Friendly games hould be about fun, why to prevent anyone to take 6 or even 8 Kensai, Bninja, YC or CA if he/she wants?

BTW, I never ever encountered a 16 YA or a 8 Musk, 8 YA army in friendly games, though most of these games were played without announced "rules".

[Krasturak]

If you don't like the guidelines suggested by the host, join a different game ... or host your own.

[BakaGaijin]

I dunno, man, it's not my damned rule. I'm just explaining the reasons people have for using the rule at all.

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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

[Yagyu Jubei]

I Have encountered many a muskie or monk filled army.... I still beat them...The arule is not hard and fast..it is a suggestion...some people have had to deal with it much more than others and simply don't want to deal with it again.....Personally I really loved Terasan's rules from back in the NO FEAR days.. in a 2v2, one person brought the infantry and archers and the other horses and shock troops...It was a great way to micromanage......Very fun, inventive and imaginative within a strict set of bounds.....
To me creativity is not in what you can do without rules,,,but what you can do within them...Bushido is a strict WAY...but full of freedom as well.

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Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

[Puzz3D]

Tytan,

Here is the story: In the beginning, the game developer decided that players would purchase honor=2 units in the online STW game, and they allowed the player to sell some of that honor, and use the koku to buy more units. Warrior monks are the most powerful unit in STW, and cost 500 koku each. In 5000 koku STW games, which was the standard for online play, you could fill out your army with 16 monks by selling some honor. You could then rush forward and overwhelm all other army types. Some players started using the 4 unit max restriction to introduce more variety to the game.

That has carried over to WE/MI because even with the changes in v1.02, the musket now tends to dominate online games. The monk has been taken care of with the price increase to 550 koku, and the improvement to the heavy cav which can now defeat it. I don't think you need any unit restrictions for a balanced game in the 5K to 7K koku range except for a limit on muskets. I don't think there is any one of a kind unit rush that works in WE/MI v1.02.

There are many factors combining to make the musket an unbalanced unit, such as: hold formation being too effective, the defend combat value being too high, units not marching quickly, cavalry hesitating when it charges, lack of a power gradient in the bullet's ballistics, lack of a consensus on kills/volley, lack of a consensus on range, lack of a consensus on reload and the use of maps like ironing board which maximizes the musket's potential. If you play maps with trees on them, the musket looses a lot of it's effectiveness.

Basically, if you play with a max honor limit of 5, and a musket limit of 2, you eliminate the two biggest unbalance issues in the online game. The limits are not an attempt to limit tactics, but instead are intended to bring infantry, cavalry and ranged weapons into a better balance so the rock, paper scissors tactics determine the outcome rather than a shooting contest.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-30-2002).]

[Tac]

8 BN and 8 HC army. Yummy!

While the horses provide fodder for the others to engage them ,the BN's are murdering everyone else heeehee

Good explanation Puzz and its true that 7-8k on MI/WE 1.02 is the best Total War to date.

But people now re-discovered the ashi which tends to be also unbalanced in 10k + games.
Unfortunately many, too many want those d@ng numbers near their names, so they tend to find loopholes and exploit this game.

And this has no end, no matter the patches.

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[BomilkarDate]

I think the 4 unit max is good, and puzz explained its purpose well. But actually I do not care if my enemy uses eg. 5 or 6 HC, YS, ND, or whatever except if he is using lots of guns, lots of Ashis and playing like a coward. If he plays well with his ten Ashis, its fine and a good game (if you put Ashis under pressure and attack their back they begin to think farming is better than fighting even with high honour.) What I think is bad for the game is people using their gun-ashi army, win the shooting and then think its a fair game and a good victory for them if I loose attacking against their tons of gunners.

[Tytan]

Bakagaijin, Tootee, Gothmog, Cheetah, Yaguu, and Bomilkar Thanks to you all for your insight and input. It would appear that there are some good and genuine reasons for a unit max.

Terazawa, like what you said alot, think i will try and follow your example within the game.

Puzz 3D major thanks to you for the history an other information. This helped me greatly to see the 4 unit max question with a much clearer and open mind.

Once again thanks to all.


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Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake

[BakaGaijin]

No worries, Tytan. That's why we're here.

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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

[Vanya]

When they issue a 4 unit max...

1. It is OK to take only 4 units if you want.

2. It is OK to take 4 musketeers and 4 arquebusiers, for both are 4-of-a-kind.

3. It is OK to take 4 naginata and 4 nagging cav.

4. You are allowed to get more than 4 gun units of a kind if you swear by your mother's grave that you will use those in excess of the magical limit of 4 for H2H purposes only. That is, if you get 5 arquebusiers, one MUST be relegated to shock troop duty exclusively and may not discharge his weapon.

At least, that is how it has been explained to me...

Of course the arques need to be in wedge on a rainy day

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[LordTed]

I ve won a battle doing that before on my pre MI 1000 koku days to make it more fun make your general an arg at honour 0 in a wedge in the rain for great results

[BSM_Skkzarg]

The 4 unit rule also regained major popularity prior to the 1.02 patch - because at that time one often DID see 16 Ashi armies of high honor - and they were at the time unbeatable.

Q!
Skkz

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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

[theforce]

4 unit max won't solve anything l think. They just take 4 guns and replace the other guns with many archers. I hate that. Also nobody plays comp excpet the damn ironing board.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

your view is very limited force, try more games

[BakaGaijin]

Try playing against the Thunderbombers!

Well, I don't really play comps... but, yeah. Okay.

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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

"Hey, why are the enemy throwing their cookware at us?" *KABOOM* -- Thunderbomber sneak attack!