Teach me how to use HA

[Axeknight]

Probably been said before, but I like to use HA (eg Byz Cav) to lure away the spearmen so my Byz Lancers can charge the archers. When attacking Finland as the Byz, I managed to kill about 200 and capture 200 more, with the loss of just 3 archers. This was from using Byz Lancers to sweep in, kill as many archers as they could then getting the hell outta dodge before the spearmen caught up with me. They had their spear away in the woods to protect them from my Trebizond archers and Bulgarian brigands, and the enemy archers were a very tempting target. In the end, only 2 units of my army got to melee (Byz Lancers and a unit of 40 Byz Inf that routed 100 spearmen without loss). The rest of the battle was manuveuring my Byz Lancers and skirmishing with my melee troops.

Much the same tactics can be used with HA, or in fact any light cav.

[Doug-Thompson]

Another random thought.

Retraining units is a good thing in general, but it seems that it's especially true with HA.

Retraining in a province with a mosque and ribalt, for instance, adds 3 to their lousy morale.

[katank]

that's true.

also, adding armor is good for any missiles to last a bit longer when they run into trouble.

I found morale to be the biggest and then armor the secod best thing for HAs.

naturally it's best to surround the enemy but sometimes you don't have enough HA for this to work and hence I do HA squads of two or three with one bait doing flybys to run the enemy past my shooters where upon the enemy realizes my shooters are closer and start chasing them in which case my HA switch roles.

[Doug-Thompson]

Thought I'd give this dead horse another beating.

Katank was right again, when he confirmed the hunch that morale upgrades were particularly important for HA.

I can't describe the difference it makes. A mosque, a ribat and the Tripoli valor bonus have made Turcoman horse much, much more usable. I'm now creating Turcoman Horse in other provinces and shipping them to Tripoli for upgrades.

[Doug-Thompson]

All right. I admit to becoming obsessed with this topic.

I've started stringing out horse archers into long, apparently unwieldy lines only two ranks deep, in close order.

Keep in mind that I play with huge unit size. That means a formation 40 HA wide.

While that formation appears impossibly wide, the fact is that it allows a very quick getaway with no bumping.

Say HA are three or four ranks deep. Things start getting hairy, with multiple threats. I start to get out of there. I double-click for a quick getaway.

Well, the formation doesn't move while the leader works his way to the back of the formation, and then they all follow him. More often than not, melee starts -- which makes the problem of getting away even more difficult.

When the HA are only two ranks deep and you order them to move back and then hit wedge formation, the leader gets to the back of the formation almost instantly, The other guys fall into place right behind him. The two ends of the line are pulled themselves in.

The group unfurls back into a two-line formation almost as easily. They spread out and the leader barely has to move after turning around.

The firepower is massive with only two ranks. If one end of the line is shooting into an enemy's flank, the other end is practically shooting the target in the back.

Use wedge to move around. Use two-rank to fire.

[Bhruic]

I noticed the Faris and Byzantine Cav were mentioned, but the poor Steppe Heavy Cav were missed. Admittedly, they aren't disciplined, but otherwise they are extremely good. Better stats than both Faris and Byzantine Cav. And a -much- lower support cost. Personally, I find they are the best missile cav you can hire (until High as Turks, anyway). They have a pretty low building requirement for them as well (just need horse breeder guild and armourer, so you can build them with just a keep - plus you can get them in early). Their only downside is the fact you can only build them in 5 provinces.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

I think Steppe Heavy Cavalry were not mentioned that much because most people acknowledge that they are good. Byz Cavalry and Faris are more controversial.

[Bhruic]

Odd. I'd say that there's no question that Byz Cav and Faris are both good. Just not quite as good as the Steppe Heavy Cav.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

Steppe heavy cavalry are the best missile cavalry unit you get in a regular playable faction, except for two special units: Russian Boyars and Turkish Sipahi of the Porte.

I'd have to put Byz Cavalry above the Faris because of better melee if they get caught. Faris have a better charge, but get into trouble if their enemy doesn't break. Almohad Faris with the weapons upgrade from Spanish iron provinces do all right, though.

However, the Szekely probably take the prize as the most useful missile cav. They are available the earliest and have the lightest tech requirements of any really good horse archer type. They're impetuous and their morale is lousy, but morale can be improved by retraining once a chapter house is built. The only disadvantage is that they can only be built in three provinces, and one of those is the only province with Avar nobles.

Mamluk Horse Archers are OK once you can finally build them.

Using Jinettes takes a knack I just don't have.

Turcoman Horse need retraining in a province with a ribat ASAP. After that, they'r OK as long as their not in a melee. They can chase routers well enough.

I don't know what to think of mounted crossbowmen. Their rate of fire is far too slow for hit-and-run horse archer tactics. Maybe they should wait until some enemy armored unit is pinned in a fight, ride up behind them, get in close and fire one devastating volley into their backs.

Berber camels are an odd little unit. I like them. They're slower than others, but you sure don't have to worry about being charged by hobilars.

Generic horse archers should be replaced by something better at the first available opportunity. Their morale stinks and they rout if they're touched.

I haven't played Turcopoles enough to form an opinion.

[Oleander Ardens]

Very interesting discussion;

I`m playing right now as Hungary (Early, Expert)and it is simply fun..

You get almost right of the start the great all-around Szekely. With the world full of slow units it is almost a pity how easily you win

I personally use mostly a combination of Szekely and later on some mounted Crossbowmen. My standart formation looks usually something;

MC SZ SZ MC

The Szekely skirmish and draw the enemy between the MC, which are usually positioned large on the flanks.
The MC are arranged in two rows, to get maximum firepower, while the Szekely are usually in deep formation or wedge, as they are the bait and are also used to quickly charge depleted units from when a good occasion comes...

Szekely are also fine anti-archer cavalry, as they are fast, and have a shield and can rout many archers - not all as you now

But the Hungarians have another ace in their pocket: the Jobagy

Fast ,decent moral, for a skirmisher a good armor and a strong charge...with a shield he would be perfect


In combination with the HA tactics they are really nasty when three of them attack a exhausted Vangerian Guard or a Katank... Under their hail of missles more than on Emporer has died.

Three or four ranks or wedge are best. Often the enemy units still chases your Szekely when their javalins make big holes into their formations. And with their good charge they do good damage from behind, and fleeing units have it often difficult to escape

It`s a nice combo, try them

[andrewt]

I used a cavalry heavy army using Hungarians with FMAA or CMAA as my only foot troops. Szekely and Steppe Heavy Cavalry actually make a good combination. Szekely engage more towards the flanks using speed. Steppe Heavy engage a little between the infantry and the Szekely. After my infantry and Avar Nobles or Chivalric Knights engage the enemy in melee, the Steppe Heavy Cavalry attacks the openings and the Szekely attacks after them or chase down routed enemies. Basically, Szekely are better pure HA while Heavy Steppe Cavalry have better versatility as they are stronger in melee.

I actually don't mind getting into an archery contest against infantry archers if my HA outnumber their archers by a lot. I put the units their archers are firing at in loose formation while keeping the rest in close for easier control. After I deal with those archers, I can keep shooting unmolested. It's most useful when using Heavy Steppe Cavalry as they lose little compared to other HA in a match against infantry archers because they have good armor.

Faris and Mamluk Horse Archers are virtually the same unit but with different tech requirements. They take around the same time to build up from scratch too. The only advantage Faris has is it has a better charge by 2 and it can dismount in castle battles.

[katank]

mounted X-bows and jinettes are not at all regular HA due to AP ability.

I love their ability to thin down enemy RK ranks etc.

this is when they work.

jinette range is a bit limiting but good for throwing the volley before engaging in melee.

I find due to their capable melee, 2 jinettes can easily take a non-jedi RK esp. after I use the javs.

Mtd Xbows are tougher. when they work, they are great but most of the time they can't wait to get into melee and are promptly slaughtered by everything and anything except maybe peasants and vanilla archers.

Anyone try Early Novgorod, blaze path to Const. and build up army of 16 boyars?

I recommend everyone try it. equivalent fire power of almost 11 archers and the charge of the remnants will rout everything.

in early, this is almost impossible to counter.

I've also mixed in dismounted Druzhina and Avar nobles for some melee power.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ April 09 2004,10:58)]... But the Hungarians have another ace in their pocket: the Jobagy

Fast ,decent morale, for a skirmisher a good armor and a strong charge...with a shield he would be perfect


In combination with the HA tactics they are really nasty when three of them attack a exhausted Vangerian Guard or a Katank... Under their hail of missles more than one Emporer has died.

Three or four ranks or wedge are best. Often the enemy units still chases your Szekely when their javalins make big holes into their formations. And with their good charge they do good damage from behind, and fleeing units have it often difficult to escape

Using horse archers to lure armored units into a crossbow and javelin trap. That's one I haven't heard of before. Sounds wickedly fun, especially on impetuous knights.

Javelinmen are well armored against arrows and good against armored targets. Horse archers are vulnerable to arrows and not-so-hot against armored targets.

Oleander Ardens and andrewt's comments bring back up something important: What at the best units to use in combos with HA?

Quote[/b] ]I actually don't mind getting into an archery contest against infantry archers if my HA outnumber their archers by a lot. I put the units their archers are firing at in loose formation while keeping the rest in close for easier control.

"If my HA outnumber" them seems to be a key quote there.

Katank, you've mentioned from the beginning of this thread that mounted Xbows are difficult to keep out of trouble. They just seem like they're more trouble than they are worth to me. I know they can decimate an armored target under the right circumstances, but getting into those right circumstances seem difficult.

[katank]

so true. my rants about Mtd. X-bows from time immemorial.

anyhow, when using them, make some liberal use of the pause key.

they also function differently from pure HA for me.

I would skirmish with them to lure knights at the start keeping many eyes upon the mtd. x-bows.

once the knights engage my spears, I use mtd. x-bows to hit them form the rear using the bolts much like using underpowered javs.

note: mtd. x-bows are available earlier than regular x-bows. hence, AP missile ability can be valuable.

then again, I can use them for chasing routers later.

hence, I get an underpowered jav or bolt unit + underpowered light cav.

I save more space for other units

hence, I would sometimes opt for the jack of all trades mtd. x-bow.

BTW, low build reqs also help this unit make it onto my list.

I tend to early rush and these help counter enemy RKs which could decimate my army early on.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ April 09 2004,16:44)]I used a cavalry heavy army using Hungarians with FMAA or CMAA as my only foot troops. Szekely and Steppe Heavy Cavalry actually make a good combination. Szekely engage more towards the flanks using speed. Steppe Heavy engage a little between the infantry and the Szekely. After my infantry and Avar Nobles or Chivalric Knights engage the enemy in melee, the Steppe Heavy Cavalry attacks the openings and the Szekely attacks after them or chase down routed enemies. Basically, Szekely are better pure HA while Heavy Steppe Cavalry have better versatility as they are stronger in melee.

Spear-killing infantry, pure HA and a flexible, versatile "hinge" unit in between. OK. I get it now.

[andrewt]

That's why I love Steppe Heavy Cavalry. If my HA outnumber their archers, I could shoot it out with them and win. If I don't, I try to get my CMAA or FMAA units to engage their spears, other swordsmen and heavy cavalry ASAP and just charge the archers using the Steppe Heavy Cavalry. Against archer heavy armies, my Steppe Heavy Cavalry sometimes never even fire arrows at all.

[Oleander Ardens]

True, same with me...Heavy Steppe cavalry is able to win archerduels against most footarchers when they outnumber them...

It too use them that way when the enemy Archers are wellguarded and few. It saves you usually more than it costs you, as you can afterwards wear them down.
Sometimes, against pure infantry, or infantry with little support it is nice to have one or two good skirmisher foot archers ( TF or TA with shield and decent armor) with you.

They win almost all archer duels, and loose fewer man than any Archers on horseback. Engage with them first, than with your HSC. That way you minimalize your losses.

Infantry won`t chatch them, and your superior cavalry protects them against the enemy cavalry, so if you see that you get attacked withdraw them quickly. Very often you get a good chance to hit the engaging cavalry in the flanks with your HSC or Avar Nobles

Looks usually that way: HSC TF TF HSC

AN AN

This formation is of course no dogma, it just gives you a great chance of victory against enemys with a good deal of archers, strong infantry and little cavalry..


The secret of the combination HA etc./Jobagy is to exhaust the enemmy, to split him up, to wear him down, while your Jobagys rest tranquilly in a good defensive position or a hill. You can combine them with one or two units of strong defensive infantry or expandable cheap spearman, to tie the enemy up, to hit them from the flanks and the rear

Their javalins and speed makes them devastating against all slow wearing armor. High valour ones make good use of the 240 javalins, and I have seen full units of Vangerian Guards, SAP and so on falling like flies after three units of Jobogys hit them from three sides with a hail of black missles

[katank]

sweet, really? I never made much good use of the jobbagies. I only see the AI pump them out by handfuls and I run them over easily with steppe cav.

will give them another try though. any particulars why jobbagy vs. other javs? lower buuild reqs anything else?

[Oleander Ardens]

Why Jobbagy?

Lowest possible build requi., if you can train peasants as Hungarian you can train Jobbagies

Best charge (4)
Weakest attack (-1)
Standard defense (0 or 1?)
Best Armor (2)
Low-Standard moral 0
No shield


Their good charge comes in very handy to finish of the hard-hit, exhausted enemy. They don`t as fast as their Slav counterparts as they have decent morale, which is good when one of them gets in trouble...

The best thing about this combo is the fact that the jobbagies usually get many and precious kills and die seldomly, as you use them to finish of the enemy. Plus they can chase down most foot. That way they gain pretty fast valor, which makes them and their javelins deadlier



I use them even late in the game, often as reenforcments, retrained in Hungary. Golden high valor jobbagies are really a nice backup to eliminate isolated elite unis


Hope you will make of them better use than the AI

[katank]

good reasons, I guess I'll check them out.

I remember in the Hungarian PBM game someone was spamming jobbagies all over the place.

so jobbagy + szeks=victory? certainly will give it a try

byz beware of hungarian horde descending upon Const

[Oleander Ardens]

Yes Szekely + Jobbagy = victory....if the Byz has no hoards of wellprotected high-valor Treb archers and a 9-Star general.

If he uses them carefully he is very very hard to defeat until you don´t use woods and bad weather as a natural archerprotection

[Doug-Thompson]

Oleander Ardens' Hungarian combo has made a convert out of me -- in a Muslim sort of way.

Consider a Muslim player's point of view. A typical Crusader army is a hard core of armored units unique to Crusades, surrounded by a bunch of fanatics, militia and other unarmored soldiers.

Kill off the armored core with javelins, and the rest can be massacred by horse archers.

Almohads are the only Muslim faction with Murabitin infantry for javelins, though. They also need some help for their Almohad Urban Militia and desert archers by mid-game. After reading these posts, I started an Almohad campaign. I kept a AUM/DA core but added more javelin troops and faris.

I've had a dozen mid-game battles with the Germans, and their commanding general has either been killed or captured every time. Most have been massacres. I attacked a Crusade across a bridge in the dead of winter while outnumbered, winning the battle and inflicting far more casualties than I suffered.

In one battle, a formation of 72 Teutonic knights charged 80 faris. Normally, I'd have been toast, but a unit of Murabins was close by. Every other cavalry unit I had, and some nearby infantry, came rushing. Normally they would have been too late.

Instead, the Teutonic knights were reduced to 12 men before they got away. They scored a lot of kills first, but nobody on my side routed and I can replace my losses. The Germans are stretched to the limit.

[Oleander Ardens]

Nice to hear that something else has to success with such combinations

My increased use of Javalinunits was the result of some games with the Irish, where I learned to know both the power of them the micro needed.

Was also always a great fan of Jinette, especially when combined with HA. Not all have them so I switched to HA-infantry skirmisher .The infantry skirmishers with javelins are very cheap, so I gave them a try... and now I absolutly love them

[katank]

nice

to see it working for you guys. too bad yesterday my Hungarian jobbagy + HA force got massacred by byz barneys though.

grrr.

I won the battle by running out the timer but they routed all my jobbagies

My HAs stayed alive and scored some good kills but my jobbagies couldn't seem to hold off the byz inf and varangs or the katanks steamrolling over

what tactics do you guys use? HA screen?

[Doug-Thompson]

I should let the Hungarian specialist answer that one. I'm not to the point where I can use an all-missile army yet.

I keep a core army of three Almohad Urban Militia, three desert archers, two javelinmen, a couple of ghazis, four horse archers and two melee cav.

Basically, I use the javelinmen as knight assassins. I started by keeping them in a two-rank line right behind the infantry line.

Later, I started luring knights into traps. I'd leave a wide distance between the main armies and send faris forward to shoot up something vulnerable. Some knights would charge, the faris would flee back towards the javelinmen. The faris would turn around, get charged, and the javelinmen would run forward and start shooting while another melee cav finished the job.

Lately, by pure luck, I discovered that the enemy has to plug his line with some lousy unit if your faris can succeed in luring away and/or shooting to pieces a couple of decent spear units. Again, I'd leave a wide gap between main armies and send faris to either end of the enemy line to lure away units. When the enemy units were either far enough away from the real battle or shot to pieces, I'd have the faris ride back to the real fight and charge some unprotected archers.

Meanwhile, I'd have a high-valor AUM charge the weak link in the enemy line, with the javelinmen behind them but holding fire. I'd also pour in as many arrows as possible.

One of two things will happen. Either the enemy will rush some knights over to prevent a rout, or there will be a rout. Either your javelinmen have some knights come to them, or they have a nice hole to run through. Then they can shoot some deserving armored unit in the back.

===============

I know the Hungarian battle being described is an early rush attack, but I can't emphasize enough the value of good morale with javelinmen -- something we noticed before on horse archers, katank. Mosque and ribat morale boosters are great.

A decent javelin attack takes a fair amount of nerve, even though javelinmen aren't nearly so helpless in melee as archers.

[katank]

yeah, so true.

I tried in my Hungarian battle to do this without even spears and just unupgraded jobbaggies and HAs.

My HAs were fine and managed to do well but I had nothing that could stop the byz from bowling over my jobbagies.

my two princely RKs were massacred and they only escaped with their lifes.

darn katanks and varang ruined my day. same with the barney circus.

I was able to hold onto const. though.

with more HA hide and seek + shoot them up, I managed to eventually defeat the byz but it took such as long time

besides, jobbaggy and szeks didn't work for me.

the szeks did, just not the combo. maybe a spear wall would help?

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ April 10 2004,05:55)]The secret of the combination HA etc./Jobagy is to exhaust the enemmy, to split him up, to wear him down, while your Jobagys rest tranquilly in a good defensive position or a hill. You can combine them with one or two units of strong defensive infantry or expandable cheap spearman, to tie the enemy up, to hit them from the flanks and the rear

Their javalins and speed makes them devastating against all slow wearing armor. High valour ones make good use of the 240 javalins, and I have seen full units of Vangerian Guards, SAP and so on falling like flies after three units of Jobogys hit them from three sides with a hail of black missles

Sounds like the Szekely and mounted crossbowmen do the heavy lifting and the javelin guys finish off the Byz.

It also sounds like Oleander Ardens gets some experience and valor into his javelin troops before taking on tough Byz units. Perhaps the rebel provinces around Hungary are used as a training ground before trying this?

I'm sticking with combined arms for now.

[lancer63]

I'm already in a very late Turkish campaing and had to crush the once proud Hungarian kingdom. Noticed that those low and annoying jobbaggy dogs were shishkabbabing my elite JHIs. So, I send in my Turcoman horsies and they begin their archer mode against the javelinmen, the enemy advances since they are short range, stop aim their javs and when about to release my turcomen shift from skirmish to engage at will and charge the infidel dogs. The javs try to reach the safety of their lines but it's too late the fire of wrath burns fiecely in the hearts of my men and even the cruel arrows of the cowardly Zsletzkys can keep them from taking vengeance upon the jobbaggys.
By the time Hungarian heavies arrive my janissaries are waiting and grinning and that grin conveys the cold happiness of death upon the infidels. The Hungarians are no more in my Turkish campaing. They were good, but not good enough.

[Doug-Thompson]

Sorry for the multiple posts, but lancer63's story just reminded me of something very important.

If you order your HA to attack something, they go from skirmish or hold position (or whatever you had them on) to engage at will, automatically.

When the fight ends and you want to use them as HA again, you have to remember to change them back. I can't believe I never mentioned this before. Surely somebody has.

Switching on "engage at will" rather than clicking a charge is a nice trick, lancer63.

[Oleander Ardens]

Too bad it doesn`t work with you Katank, but perhaps we can clear the situation up.

When I use Szekely + Jobbagy I first hide/secure the Jobbagys. They are no match against fresh Byz infantry/ Var Guards/ Katanks so they rest and wait in a wood far away the enemy lines...

Forget the usual battleline thinking, all the map is your hunting-ground, there are no positions to loose or to gain.

So you spread out your Szekely and engage the enemy where he is weak hitting the fastest/lightest/missle units first when you get the opportunity. I usually keep some as backup away from the enemy. This makes micro more easy and enables
you to "replace" your tired HA/Szekely to keep the pressure on the enemy...

Until one/two fine slow powerful units aren´t isolated it is a pure "Szekely against all the Byz army" match. While the enemy tires, while his mobile arm and his missle arm gets eaten away your Jobbagies rest.

Their time comes when the Byz is almost entirely composed of exhausted, slow and yet very powerful units which could still turn the tide and inflict heavy casualities against your RK/HA/Szekely.

Now I use one/two Szekely to draw some units to the Jobbagys. In this stage your RK join now the Jobbagies and togheter surround and finish the enemy off. The Szekely gets set on Skirmish, while the Jobbagies throw their javelins against the enemy. A single cheap/strong spearmenunit can help you greatly, especially if you don`t have much experience with jav-units.

If the spear is cheap simply throw, if it is valuable than throw into the back. The RK can act as a improvised anti-Katank unit. With good timing you can hit them, often in the flanks/rear before they roll over your Jobbagies. Standing tired Katanks take a good while to kill RK, time which can use by hitting them with javs from behind or the flanks

In the meantime let the rest of the Szekely skirmish, thus keeping the enemy running and outspread.

Var guards are dealed with in almost the same way. A Szekely/Jobbagy draws the enemy while the rest hits them from the flanks/rear. Hitting them from behind is possible as they stop and turn to attack another unit.

They are almost always exhausted and badly reduced when the final charge from all side is ordered..
Let a Szekely destroy them once they flee and walk towards the next victims...


Yes this strat requires time and concentration; Make, especially while experimenting good use of the "p" and keep an eye on the minimap.
But the sight of mighty Byz/HRE armys slowly wearing down, and finished with little losses by cheap third-class units is unique and rewarding


BTW: Yes valor is also key. I tend to slowly build them up, and keep a good eye on them just like with HA. Depleted high valor Jobbagies fuse only with high valor counterparts and get armor/weapon retraining in calm periods.


Hope it helps