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Thread: "And now for something completely different!"

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Guys,

    I've been very busy for a while now writing a new utility for MTW modding. It's called MTTM.


    MTTM
    ====

    This latest baby, MTTM, will BLOW YOUR MINDS

    What Melodrama from Welly

    Trust me Melodrama is not my speciality but this utility is (IMHO) really special

    Why is it special? Because I've finally puzzled out how some things (MTW-battlefield-wise) work, and how to change them. I've also puzzled out exactly what some of the binary files within MTW really are - and how to manipulate them to amend models or create new ones. I've also sussed out how to do some things that have been frequently requested in this group but have always been "unknown".

    For example, the "LoTR" group would benefit from a completely different atmosphere for many of the battlefields within that mod (Morder provinces?). The "Nap" group would also benefit if battlefield maps could be created for 19c European cities (buildings/streets/pavements/roads/gas lights). Komnino's project (Hellenistic - Greek/Persian) would benefit from new models that represent such an area and such an era.

    We have many great mods that many individuals are putting a hell of a lot of work into. One of the problems has been creating an entirely new battlefield for a different era. For example, a 17c mod would require cities with paved streets and 3/4 story buildings. A 19c mod would require lampposts in the streets. A LoTR mod would/may require a different atmosphere (darker?) for battles that occur in provinces controlled by Evil factions. A Greek-ages mod requires different buildings - and so on.

    Can we do it? YES

    MTTM stands for "Models, Textures, Terrains and Maps utility" and is aimed at changing the face of the MTW battlefield for those mods that would really like such a "facelift" in the battlefield arena.


    Request for testing/assistance
    ==============================

    MTTM is probably 2-4 weeks away from an initial Beta release, but before this release I require the assistance of 1 or 2 guys whom I can E-mail MTTM to - in order for them to comment/advise/suggest on the pro's/con's/usability/understandability etc: of this utility (much the same request as when the 1st version of LMM was released).

    MTTM is quite different to any utility previously offered on the Org, for MTW modding, as it incorporates many things.

    It comprises an extensive graphics viewer for ALL images that you may see on an MTW battlefield, an information tool for such images, management tools for creating new models/terrains etc:, map manipualtions, adhoc file conversions (from TGA/LBM/BIF/BUF to BMP and visa-versa), and a hell of a lot more.

    I won't go further into details at this point, but in order to progress this utility further any assistance from 1 or 2 guys who have a very good understanding of the MTW map editor would be great.

    Ideal requirements for anyone who wishes to assist in the testing and developement of MTTM would be -

    - a GOOD understanding of the MTW map editor
    - an interest/enthusiasm for creating new models (both static and dynamic)
    - an interest in textures, terrains and graphics within the MTW battlefield environment
    - a basic understanding of programming code (not essential but would be useful as all source code for MTTM will be provided)
    - at least 600 meg available space on your PC's hard drive

    I already have something, MTTM-wise, to provide NOW - and it works great (if it did'nt I would'nt have started this thread). I'm now trying to elicit assistance from like minded individuals who would like to have a say in how we progress this utility, and can contribute (advice-wise) to it's first release.

    Obviously, many people who "know me" also know I've investigated and modded several areas of MTW, but I'm well aware that MANY individuals are far more conversant with the MTW Map Editor than I will ever be - and knowledge of the MTW Map Editor is the key to this type of utility Such individuals have such a wealth of information, far more than I can ever possess (give me your thoughts and we can provide software that provides the functionality we all dreamed of 12 months ago).

    Anyway, anyone who thinks they have what is required - and has probablity been awaiting such a utility for 12 months or more - now is your chance to influence the direction and developement of a new major utility for "The Orgs" modding group, and ...

    ... for those of you who know me ...

    ... I don't (often) talk bullshit

    Welly




  2. #2
    Senior Member Senior Member shand994's Avatar
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    Sounds good welly.

    Id help out but i know nothing of the map editor. But it sounds very cool. good to see more of your good work


    " 'I freed you, and this is your gratitude?'
    'You delivered pain. Unacceptable. I am not one to feel pain. I only deliver it.'"

  3. #3

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    This utility is what the community has needed.
    People like komninos can now build there battlefield-maps with the help of a 3D- modeller.


    Thank you Wellington for this utility .



    Antalis::



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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Hhhmmm - as someone has chosen to sticky this thread, I suppose I'd better adda few more details (as opposed to my earlier "euphoric ramblings").


    Ok,

    Lets offer a bit more info in order to tell modders what's comimg, and (hopefully) generate some offer of assistance.

    MTTM aims to assist modders in creating new battlefields for new mods. It does this by offering facilities that can change (or just view) the various elements that may/do comprise an MTW battlefield. What are these "elements" -

    - model textures
    - static models
    - dynamic models
    - the terrain (ground) textures
    - tree textures
    - map files (yes - the '.jjm' file types&#33
    - the backdrop (sky) textures


    What does MTTM comprise?

    Basically 2 utilities (that are closely related) -

    a) MTTM_Batch
    a) MTTM_Online

    You can think of MTTM_Batch as being the "number cruncher", whilst MTTM_Online is the graphics/information viewer.


    MTTM_Batch
    ==========

    MTTM_Batch basically allows for -

    1) conversion of all texture files (mentioned above) by converting them from TGA/LBM to BMP format (once they are BMPs they can be viewed in MTTM_Online and also amended by a simple BMP graphics product - ie Windows Paint)
    2) creation of numerous cross-reference information files (for use within MTTM_Online)
    3) an update facility to add new files to the MTTM structures (to keep the info displayed in MTTM_Online in-sync)

    It also offers several Adhoc facilities -

    a) conversion of all LBM/TGA/BIF/BUF files in an MTW folder, into BMPs
    b) the opposite of the a) above
    c) enlarging of maps (Small to Medium/Small to Large/Medium to Large)
    d) map/terrain image creation (with water/tree identifications)
    e) modification (recoloring/brightness/contrast changes) to any textures within a "set" (a "set" as created by MTTM_Online)
    f) conversion of "sets" from BMPs back into LBMs/TGAs (in preperation for installing such "sets" into MTW.

    ... and will probably offer more Adhoc-type facilities in later versions.


    MTTM_Online
    ===========

    MTTM_Online basically allows for -

    1) viewing of all texture BMPs, as created by MTTM_Batch
    2) viewing of multiple cross-reference and information files, as created by MTTM_Batch
    3) creation of "sets"
    4) install/backout of "sets"


    What is a "set"?
    ================

    If you are using MTTM to change graphics images, MTTM can assist by creating a "set" of related images and files.

    For example -

    - if you are creating a new static or dynamic model, MTTM will create a "set" of several files (based on an existing static/dynamic model) and create a foildr with JUST THE FILES THAT YOU REQUIRE. Hence, these files may then be amended, and installed to MTW.
    - if you are creating new backdrops (sky), MTTM will create a "set" of 5 graphics files

    ... and so on


    What do I require?
    ==================

    Ok, you should have a rough idea of what MTTM is by now. Other than being an extensive tool for MTW battlefields, the ability to convert between the various MTW filetypes (TGA/LBM/BIF/BUF) will be a welcome addition for all modders who have different viewing or changing such filetypes.

    If I can get 1 or 2 people to try this out they can be of enormous assistance. How? Well, by -

    - checking for bugs
    - seeing if it works correctly for both MTW and VI
    - checking if the documentation makes sense
    - offering ideas

    How long
    ========

    It will be 2 to 4 weeks for an initial BETA release.


    Welly

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Hhhhmm,

    Looks like there is a distinct deficit of interest/involvement out there. Hardly surprising as ... er ... nothing as yet is being offered via this thread

    Therefore, would whoever (moderater wise) stickied this thread, please un-sticky it

    MTTM will still be released within 2/4 weeks (initial BETA version), and at such a time I'll create a new thread - when the Orgs patrons have something to download and try out. At such a time the moderater(s) may choose to sticky the subsequent thread, that I'll provide, announcing the 1st BETA release.

    Welly

  6. #6
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Don't worry Welli,

    I think there will be some interest once some new objects come out and they see sreenshots.

    Sorry I to say I am not the person to offer help on this but all in all I have done 1 map and it didn't work as I would like to.

    Just a fue question ...
    1. Can this tool edit the artilery models?
    2. In the startpos files there are some AT_ flags that designate building sets ... have you found a way to make a new building set?

    P.S. I would love to have a couple of Hellenic style temples, walls and housing .

  7. #7
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Very nice Wellington,

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]c) enlarging of maps (Small to Medium/Small to Large/Medium to Large)
    Wow :-)
    Are the new tiles evenly distributed around the enlarged map, or can the user influence that? One may have made a very nice small hilly map and decide to add a plain at one side.

    The reverse is possible too?

    I haven't made maps for over a year now, but I have some experience with mapmaking (STW demo and MI editor).

    I admit that I haven't read it twice, so I may have missed it: STW water was water. It was also located at the zero level (couldn't make mountainlakes). I guess that this is a restriction of the 'engine', but just asking anyhow: is it possible to change that?

    MTW water has two types: tidal (seas) and normal (ponds/rivers). One gets tidal water by default, the only way I managed to get non tidal water was by editing an excisting MTW map. Does the tool allow to differentiate?

    I have both MTW and VI installed, enough drive space, Win98SE, 512 RAM, some mapexperience and I can invest a bit of time. Is it possible to give it a look before signing up for beta please, so I can estimate how much time it would require to do a refresher and 'master' this new tool?
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Komninos/Tosainu,

    I'm not worried Just a bit excited by the ideas swimming in my brain Your quite correct. I should have just waited until the BETA was ready before starting a thread - after which anyone can download it, try it and out and that will generate the feedback for the next version.

    Your questions -


    Can this tool edit the artilery models?

    Depends what you mean "edit". Models are either static or dynamic (artillery is dynamic), and MTTM can deal with both types. MTTM can assist in creating new artillery models. It can create new models for the user BASED ON EXISTING models, and control all of this. The user still has to amend the textures for their new models. For example, some of the new models I've created (just for testing) -

    - a new cannon (more 16C style) with different textures
    - a new set of houses (dark age style) that are just burnt out wooden shells (a destroyed settlement&#33
    - a new "early" style bridge - wooden (not stone) with trestles instead of arches
    - a new 3 story building that is more 18C/19C
    - (I'm working on terrain tiles for 18C/19C cities - cobbled road and pavements)
    - (I'm working on changing some trees to 19C gas lampposts)

    MTTM can't do a lot with the new textures for your new model (it can recolour and amend sharpness/contrast/brightness of some/all of the textures that comprise your model)- but it does create a "set" of ALL files required (model files/texture files/damage stuff) for your new model (renamed ect) that is a complete set that also does'nt impact on other models. Whether the model is artillery, a house, a bridge or a part of a castle (for example, I use the 'keep tower' model to create my 3 storey buildings) is irrelevent.

    have you found a way to make a new building set?

    Yes MTTM does NOT change any existing MTW models. Rather it creates new ones (based on an existing one - shape wise) with new model names and new texture names. Hence whatever you wish to change for your new model will never effect existing ones. Therefore, you can add as many models to MTW as you wish - and still have your original MTW "building set"

    Can we change the shape of models (yes and no) - I'm looking at all the possibilties now - but the coding required will make this option a future enhancement to MTTM.

    Are the new tiles evenly distributed around the enlarged map, or can the user influence that?

    The extra tiles will be at the top and right of the existing map - there is a good reason for this. Increasing a map size (from 20x20/26x26 to 26x26/31x31) is easy now - and it takes 1 second to do If the original map remains in the bottom left hand corner then all trees and models will be automatically correct, relative to the resized map (X/Y co-ordinate and height wise).

    Therefore top-right is the initial BETA release.

    I hope to allow adding the extra tiles anywhere (4 more options - evenly distributed, top-left, bottom-right, bottom-left) but if so I then have to recalcuate all X/Y co-ords and all new height positions for the new locations of trees and models - relative to the new map. This is time consuming and complicated and I intend to offer this in a future release.

    Having said that, MTTM can also strip remove all tress and/or models from a map. In such cases the new tiles won't affect such tree/model positions (as their won't be any trees/models on such maps&#33.


    The reverse is possible too?

    Yes - but 2 things here. 1st I can't see why anyone would wish to do this. 2nd I have the same problem trying to calculate which trees/models no longer remain on the mao (and hence delete them from the JJM file). Ok, thats relatively straightforward but the BIG problem would be - what if you have a group of models (a castle or a bridge) that stretches over 2 or more tiles You have to remove all the model and it would look silly.

    Once the BETA is released and feedback starts coming I may offer somthing like this IF people want it.


    STW water was water. It was also located at the zero level (couldn't make mountainlakes). I guess that this is a restriction of the 'engine', but just asking anyhow: is it possible to change that?

    Unfortunately no. All maps are 3D, X/Y/Z and the water level is defined as halfway up the Z plane. No mountain lakes I'm afraid

    MTW water has two types: tidal (seas) and normal (ponds/rivers). One gets tidal water by default, the only way I managed to get non tidal water was by editing an excisting MTW map. Does the tool allow to differentiate?

    I'm still trying to puzzle out the "MTW map rules" for this At present when I increase the mapsize for a river type map then the water becomes coastal. I think I know why this is. The additional tiles added are either not low enough (for some maps) or too high - just above the water level (for other maps). I think rivers must be from one side of the map all the way to the other side - in which case the water won't be coastal. This is all theory at present (which is why I wanted some "map expert" who may know all of this to help out

    Still, we'll puzzle it all out - sooner or later.



    Guys - don't worry about assistance for now. 3/4 weeks and the 1st BETA will be available - at which stage interested parties can contribute.

    Welly




  9. #9
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Konnichiwa Wellington,

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The reverse is possible too?

    Yes - but 2 things here. 1st I can't see why anyone would wish to do this.
    One may want to do this when (ambitiously) starting with a big map, editing it and then find out that a small size would suit the result much better. It's impossible to start over with a small map and achieve the exact same result. That's a why, but I understand that investing very much time just to make that work (how many times would it be used?) isn't really worth it.

    You mentioned the recalculation, indeed seems a hard part.
    It may make some options available (just a guess from a 'stuurman aan de wal&#39 if there's a way to add this:

    -Insert/remove rows of tiles from anywhere (?). When making maps you sometimes face the problem that you'ld need an extra row of tiles in the middle of a map to achieve proper texture blending.

    -Rotate maps 90/180/270 degrees (defender and attacker deployment zones differ and a map may be better for some when the orientation is changed).

    Just curious: does a map contain gridpoint coordinates and data about how to connect one with the other by 'interpolation' (curved or straight line) or does it contain the xyz data for each point (some 1,6E9 for a small map).

    A thing that we observed with STW maps: it looks like there is a z coordinate for the tiles and a z coordinate for the units to use. Normally they are the same: sometimes you saw a plain and a unit was rocketed 10 miles in the sky or sank away in the ground (idea of a swamp). By using ENTER in the mapeditor data was recalculated and the error was fixed. Adding a swamp to maps would be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately no. All maps are 3D, X/Y/Z and the water level is defined as halfway up the Z plane. No mountain lakes I'm afraid
    Yes, it seems made that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I think rivers must be from one side of the map all the way to the other side - in which case the water won't be coastal.
    There are also non coastal/tidal ponds, just water in the center of a map. I never managed to make such a pond in a fresh map, I had to use an excisting one and edit that. I reall that it turned to tidal when one end was connected to the edge.

    It already looks like a great tool, I wish I had something like that when making STW maps.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Jesus TosaInu,

    You don't half ask some difficult questions As such this is a VERY long post

    Ok, regard this post as a brainstorming session that also attempts to answer your questions (much of this info will also be provided in the MTTM documentation) - but check also the "Conclusion" below.


    One may want to do this when (ambitiously) starting with a big map, editing it and then find out that a small size would suit the result much better.

    That WILL be possible within MTTM (if not the 1st BETA release then perhaps the next release). Any "complications" in increasing or decreasing map sizes are trivial, if you only consider the terrain. It's the trees and models info that causes problems. The 1st BETA will operate as in the previous post (additional terrain tiles for enlarged maps), the 2nd BETA will offer 2 additional things -

    1) if increasing a map size - allow the new terrain tiles to be anywhere (in the 5 positions mentioned - but ALL trees and models will be lost)
    2) if decreasing a map size - also allow the removed tiles to be anywhere (in the 5 positions mentioned - but, again, ALL trees and models will be lost)

    This is the easiest way of dealing with such considerations - initially

    The reason is the work involved (not program coding - that's the easy part (easy but time consuming) - but in investigating what works and what does'nt - thats the REAL time consuming part)


    You mentioned the recalculation, indeed seems a hard part.

    It's complicated, to be sure. There are 2 main problems -

    1) the time taken to investigate EXACTLY what some X/Y/Z coords (in some data blocks) in the .JJM represent
    2) the time taken for a VB Script program/utility to perform such calculations

    From 1) I should say that I certainly don't know exactly what every byte in a .JJM represents What I do know, now, is what every block of data in a .JJM relates to (but I've not yet tried to interpret some of the info contained in some of these blocks).

    In a .JJM the block structure (continguously speaking) is as follows (mapsize is 20 or 26 or 31 - which relates to the number of terrain tiles within a map). NOTE that all maps are square, hence X and Y planes are always each mapsize+1 -

    a) Header (8-bytes) - 1st byte is always the mapsize
    b) Map Block (length is - (mapsize+1)*(mapsize+1)*12 ) - 12 bytes per X/Y entry
    c) Edge Block (length is - (mapsize+1)*(mapsize+1)*12*4 ) - 12 bytes per X/Y entry, 4 entries per Map Block entry
    d) Unknown (length is 1 byte) - don't ask me - its always X'00' for every map
    e) Terrain Block (length is - (mapsize*mapsize*2) ) - 2 bytes per entry (1 terrain ID byte followed by 1 terrain manipulation byte, interpreted via bits - 90/180/270 degrees/flip and so on)
    f) Army deployment blocks (length is always 192 bytes - 8 subblocks - 8x24 areas - that relate to 8 areas on the map for initial army deployments)
    g) Tree image header (8 bytes) - 1st byte defines the number of trees on the map (if no tree images on the map this block is still present BUT it is just 8-bytes of zeros)
    h) Tree images (ONLY IF THERE ARE TREES PRESENT - see Tree Image header) (11 bytes per tree) - X-coord/Y-coord/Height/tree ID
    i) Models (ONLY IF THERE ARE MODELS PRESENT) (size of "model name" followed by 21 bytes per model)

    NOTE: there is no "model" header as such. Whether or not models are present on the map is determined by the size of the map file and the eventual size after arriving at i) above

    That IS the structure of a /JJM file.

    Therefore, I currently know enough about the general .JJM file structure to do some things, basically to manipulate the X and Y planes. Thats why increasing (or decreasing) a map size is relatively easy - you only have to consider 2 planes. Manipulating the Z plane (heights) is more complicated and will take a lot more investigation (and trial and error) because thinking in 2D is hard enough - thinking in 3D is painful - especially when you have to "guess" what some info represents.


    From 2) MTTM will be provided as VB Script code. There are pro's and con's with this approach -

    a) one con - any real "number crunching" routines that require real intensive processing will be far slower when coded in VB script (as opposed to coding such routines in a DLL)
    b) one pro - ALL OF THE SOURCE CODE WILL BE PROVIDED IN MTTM, as opposed to utilities that are "hidden" via virtue of the fact that source code is not provided

    Now, to my mind, the advantages of b) far outweigh the advantages of a). Why? Well, if I fall dead tomorrow under a Den Haag tram you all have my permisssion to enhance/develope MTTM in whatever way you choose The source code is there Does it sound like logical principles for a group of "hobby MTW modders" - it certainly does to me I've worked with hobbyists before who do something (compiled VB code) and then leave the group What happens then? Er ... nothing The software they produced at the time was great ... but ... er ... it was all compiled ... and is totally useless when such individuals vacate a group. Ok, we all do this as a hobby BUT open source code is (IMHO) the way to go, and, where no profit is involved, it sounds good to me


    Insert/remove rows of tiles from anywhere (?). When making maps you sometimes face the problem that you'd need an extra row of tiles in the middle of a map to achieve proper texture blending.

    I wish you had'nt this mentioned Tosaini - simply because the functionality to do this is straightforward, but very time consuming. Such a function would require the usr to specify 2 maps to be "joined" - is it possible, YES - is it desirable, YES Is it complicated - well not in the MTTM routines but probably so in the MTTM_Batch module that has top provide details of what you user requires.

    -Rotate maps 90/180/270 degrees (defender and attacker deployment zones differ and a map may be better for some when the orientation is changed).

    Not necessary - simply because MTTM (perhaps not in the 1st BETA release) will address this issue by changing the deployment zones for armies on the MTW battlefield - a LOT easier (and far more flexable) than changing the orientation of the map. Do I know how to do this ... er ... absolutely not ... but I do know the control blocks that pertain to this and it's possible MTTM will provide sucg functionality in a few weeks/months time (future versions of MTTM).


    No need to rotate maps. I know where "Army Deployment Blocks" are. I certainly don't know what this 192 byte area comprises (yet) but I'll certainly know what it is "eventually".


    Just curious ... : does a map contain gridpoint coordinates and data about how to connect one with the other by 'interpolation' (curved or straight line) or does it contain the xyz data for each point (some 1,6E9 for a small map)

    Hhhmmmm .... difficut questions again

    A .JJM map contains -

    a) gridpoint co-ords - YES A map may be 20x20 terrain tiles - NO its really 21x21 tiles
    b) the connection between adjacent tiles is computed via a "smoothing function" that is a part of the MTW map editor.
    c) the 'interpolation' exists (and is processed by the MTW map editor).


    Conclusion
    ==========


    My brains swimming now TosaInu - but my main priorities are concerned with getting an initial MTTM version released. If you (or others) require a "pre-release test version" regarding the "Maps" part of MTTM then I'm happy to extract some of the MTTM code and deliver it to interested parties - prior to the 1st BETA release.

    Such code will allow people to interpret MTW maps (.JJM files) as such code will provide the means to do so.

    It would take me 3/4 hours to do this - BUT, I'm sure the time would be well spent as it would enable me to provide an "Initial stand-alone version" of the MTTM code relating to map manipulation.

    This would give me time to concentrate on other MTTM areas whilst other people (who know about maps&#33 investigate the areas I don't yet know.


    Welly

  11. #11
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Thanks Wellington,

    For explaining all this.

    I'm going to ask a few more questions, please?

    I agree that open source is great, wouldn't it be 'possible'
    to publish uncompiled (say) C source together with the © exe? Especially when numbercrunching is involved?

    VB is probably the better choice since more (?) people will be able to do anything with that. Is it then possible to have the main program in VB and add a numbercrunching external module in C to it? [I'm not pressing you to do anything, just also brainstorming].

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Not necessary - simply because MTTM (perhaps not in the 1st BETA release) will address this issue by changing the deployment zones for armies on the MTW battlefield - a LOT easier (and far more flexable) than changing the orientation of the map. .."Army Deployment Blocks"..
    Wow This must be the best news I heard in ages I always thought that the game exe decided about that.
    Being able to manipulate deploymentzones may be the #1 wish for mapmakers, I know it's mine.

    -Is it possible to shift deploymentzones at will or is it more like some fixed presets?
    -Castlemaps have a mutual deploymentzone for all 4 attackers
    all around the castle. The 4 can see each other and build one huge formation if they want to. The option to start with one big army is great in teamgames (one can be the missileman while the other controls the pikes).
    Normal maps have 4 seperate zones, the 4 can see each other but not deploy units together. Would it be possible to split a map in 2 halves with a no men's zone in between, one halve being depzone 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 while the other is 5-8?

    True Wellington, there are much more aspects to this than just manipulating the map. Textures and models are very important, being able to skin a map to the appropriate setting (Nap, Sengoku, Ancient) is very useful.

    My programming skills are far less than basic. I can brainstorm but not do much myself. Breaking it up in modules could be good (you're the programmer here) and I will 'toy' with at least the mapmanipulation, whether it's a seperate module or not.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    I agree that open source is great, wouldn't it be 'possible' to publish uncompiled (say) C source together with the © exe? Especially when numbercrunching is involved?

    VB is probably the better choice since more (?) people will be able to do anything with that. Is it then possible to have the main program in VB and add a numbercrunching external module in C to it? [I'm not pressing you to do anything, just also brainstorming].



    I would have no objection whatsoever to anyone creating compiled modules from the VB Script source (providing they also provide all source with any amended modules).

    One thing I've always thought was that the Org modding group would benefit from a few guys who were interested in programming MTW/VI utilities for this community.

    That does'nt just mean programmers. It means people who could investigate, brainstorm, come up with ideas, write documentation, design interfaces for tools, write the code and even produce re-usable OCX/DLL for common requests from such utilities (example - file conversions - as RSW has done with BifReader and the command line interface).

    Pipedreams? Not really. Writing the code for any utility is not the hardest part. It's all the background investigation of what can be done, is it worthwhile and how to do it that takes the time - together with the continual problem of writing good documentation.

    Being able to manipulate deploymentzones may be the #1 wish for mapmakers, I know it's mine.

    -Is it possible to shift deploymentzones at will or is it more like some fixed presets?
    -Castlemaps have a mutual deploymentzone for all 4 attackers
    all around the castle. The 4 can see each other and build one huge formation if they want to. The option to start with one big army is great in teamgames (one can be the missileman while the other controls the pikes).
    Normal maps have 4 seperate zones, the 4 can see each other but not deploy units together. Would it be possible to split a map in 2 halves with a no men's zone in between, one halve being depzone 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 while the other is 5-8?


    No idea yet. Working out where the data blocks in a JJM start and end is one thing. Trying to puzzle out what the data in the blocks represent is another.

    I'm not even 100% certain the 192-bytes in the JJM is actually Army deployment zones - but as its always 192-bytes (regardless of the map size), is divisable by 8 and is the only data block that has a "fixed" size for all 3 map sizes - I'm just assuming its deployment areas for 8 armies. Also I'd expect such info to be actually in the map - the reason being some maps (with a lot of coastal area, or a large area of high mountains) would require slightly different deployment areas based on what the height of the terrain is (otherwise if tehse areas were fixed, you could get armies deploying in the sea).

    Textures and models are very important, being able to skin a map to the appropriate setting (Nap, Sengoku, Ancient) is very useful.

    Forget to mention in earlier posts. MTTM works with "sets" but all sets are contained with "projects" (the project is just a folder containing all "sets" pertaining to that project).

    The idea of MTTM "Projects" is so that modders can use MTTM to create different stuff for different mods - and Install/Backout all "sets" for a "project". A project would generally be a major mod - for example Naps/LoTR/Greece (or just a Test project) ... and so on. In this way any modder can be working on several mods at the same time, and creating new "sets" of images specifically for individual projects - whilst ensuring MTTM keeps all project "sets" seperate.


    I will 'toy' with at least the map manipulation, whether it's a seperate module or not.

    All of the various functionality is seperate modules. However such modules are driven by windows GUI interfaces, so its a bit harder than I expected to extract the core routines from the GUI drivers.

    For now I'm going to concentrate on getting a BETA out - 3 weeks I think - and as such time individuals will undoubtedly "Play around" with the areas that are of interest to them, whilst I can then get on with the 2nd version.

    Welly
    I'll get the 1st version out first.




  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Ok,

    The 1st BETA release of MTTM will be provided to 2 individuals - who have expressed an interest - within one week (both individuals are members of the LoTR group).

    This 1st Pre-Beta release will be directed towards the required changes implicit in the LoTR mod, and thus the functionality will also be directed towards this group.

    Keep your eyes open; because MTTM will be arriving shortly

    Welly

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    A further update,

    The good news is that it appears MTTW (what I have finished so far) works fine with both MTW and VI.

    The bad news is that I'm awaiting some confirmations before I'm confident I can release it without having to rewrite some significant parts - and hence end up with "egg on my face"

    See this thread -

    http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....y146737

    It won't have gone unnoticed by many 'long standing' members of this community that another guy, who also provides utilities for this MTW community, commented that "silence speaks volumes" in athread some time ago.

    Seems little has changed.

    Ok, I'll await the release of the VI patch before actually releasing MTTM to all and sundry. At such a time I'll test the patch with MTTM, just to ensure it's not a retrograde step for modders, and if all appears ok the 1st BETA release will follow.

    Welly

  15. #15
    Member Member hal269091's Avatar
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    @Wellington

    I wonder about the very few people who want to volunteer in testing your very promising new utility. I would like to volunteer

    But as I expected loads of people willing to do the job I didn't belive that I would have a chance to belong to the "chosen" ones.

    Also because you never answered when I tried to get in contact with you.

    In case you would be interested in my cooperation I gladly would do some testing for MTTW.

    Greetings

    Hal

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (hal269091 @ Aug. 26 2003,12:16)]@Wellington

    I wonder about the very few people who want to volunteer in testing your very promising new utility. I would like to volunteer

    But as I expected loads of people willing to do the job I didn't belive that I would have a chance to belong to the "chosen" ones.

    Also because you never answered when I tried to get in contact with you.

    In case you would be interested in my cooperation I gladly would do some testing for MTTW.

    Greetings

    Hal
    Hi Hal,

    Sorry I hav'nt replied earlier to your offer.

    Many thanks and yes That's 3 people now (2 members of the ME:TW team and yourself) which will be provided with the 1st pre-Beta release. That's enough people now. This 1st pre-BETA will be E-mailed to you within the next couple of weeks (ok, I said it would only be a week but developers always lie&#33.

    The idea is just get a bit of initial feedback just to see what things I've done in a 'silly manner'. We won't we looking for perfection in the 1st BETA release but just ensuring most things make some sense.

    When I E-mail you 3 guys I'll post in this thread to let you know.

    Oh Hal, and let me know your E-Mail address so I know were to send it to.

    Welly

  17. #17
    Member Member flip's Avatar
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    Hi Wellington,

    any news on this?
    CHIEF DESIGNER

    Hellenic Total War

  18. #18

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    When do you plan to release your tool?


    Then the NTW mod team could and other could make new buildings for the map editor, like new fortresses, temples and other models, if they want to



    »Erzähle, Wandrer, wenn du nach Sparta kommst, daß wir, seinen Gesetzen gehorsam, hier gefallen sind.«


    CHIEF ARCHITECT


    visit our HTW website

  19. #19
    Consul Senior Member Scipio's Avatar
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    Great idea willy well done Finally something that somes what everybody needs
    When a finger points at the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger.
    -- Confucius

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Ok,

    To the guys asking here is the current situation.

    MTTM_Batch
    ==========

    I'll be releasing a BETA version of MTTM_Batch within a week. The 1st version will be sent to Barrocca and he can then upload it to the Org. This first version will probably be sadly lacking in good Documentation but I'll do what I can - it's quite intuative anyway.

    This 1st release will be based primarily on tilesets, maps and backdrops (NOT models and model textures - yet) and will offer the following functionality -

    - manipulation/recolouring of MTW tilesets
    - manipulation/recolouring of MTW backdrops
    - manipulation/amendment/resizing of MTW maps
    - conversion of STW maps to MTW formats
    - conversion of STW tilesets to MTW formats
    - detailed map images (BMPs constructed from the tilesets) for both MTW and STW maps
    - a few adhoc reference text files (map contents - etc)
    - a few adhoc reference BMP images (tilesets, backdrops)
    - adhoc file conversion for TGA/LBM/BIF/BUF filetypes to BMPs
    - adhoc file conversion for BMPs filetypes to TGA/LBM/BIF/BUF

    ... and I think thats about it for the 1st BETA release.

    In other words, this 1st release will offer the capability to amend the look/feel atmosphere of an MTW battlefield (maps/tilesets/backdrops).

    One important thing to realise if that this utility is call MTTM_Batch - which really means that it allows porocessing of many images in a batch manner. For example, if you wished to change/recolour 181 tiles in an MTW tileset then instead of editing each one in turn via some Graphics package you can just click a few buttons in MTTN_Batch and it will change a complete tileset for you. How long does this take? 2 minutes - at most

    MTTM_Batch will probably be extended in the future to do more things (as the previous posts in this thread for details/ideas).


    MTTM_Online
    ===========

    This part is the real "eye candy" of MTTM. Its a fully featured graphics viewer for the map images, tilesets and backdrops mentioned above and also for trees, models and model textures. It is also an information tool in terms of MTW maps/tiles/backdrops/trees/models/textures.

    This is the part of MTTM that deals with model and model texture amendments (simply because for models you'll only be doing 1 at a time - as opposed to MTTM_Batch that does lots of thing at a time - ie, it's quicker).

    This is already written and works fine for the graphics and information type stuff, but I still have a bit to do on new model creation. As an inbformation viewer it's fine, as a model manipulator there is more to be done.

    How long for a 1st BETA? Probably weeks away - but I may decide to release what I currently have whilst working on the model manipulation stuff for the 2nd version. Just have to see.

    Welly

  21. #21
    Consul Senior Member Scipio's Avatar
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    Great idea for the stw tileset to mtw. keep it up
    When a finger points at the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger.
    -- Confucius

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    GAH

    Vanya started reading this, and soon lost His mind. As Vanya sank into insanity, He had an "apostrophe": Vanya has no head Therefore, logic and reason would dictate that Vanya could NOT have lost His mind during the read, and could thus, NOT be insane

    Now that Vanya has reattached His surrogate head, He can say... this sounds intriguing.

    Vanya sez... Vanya does not recall what "language" this tool is written in, but does remember somebody suggesting componentizing it. (There was some vague notion of VB script lingering in Vanya's gut...)

    Vanya *could* help with that...

    Vanya's questions:
    1) Should Vanya help componentizing... would He have to run app on PC with game installed, or could He do it on PC that has no MTW on it?
    2) Assuming 1 is "no MTW needed", then can He still fiddle with the files (assuming He has some copies of some file samples) and see the results within the app visually?
    3) What components/controls/objects are youz using to assist youz in developing this app? Any DirectX? Or is it straight binary shenanigans?

    Vanya sez... Vanya's time is limited, as it is currently head harvesting season. (Of course, head harvesting is done year-round... )

    GAH
    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  23. #23
    Member Member Razor1952's Avatar
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    Having hung around here for a while I vaguely can see what Welly is on about.

    I'd be happy to volunteer my services, though I don't know much about the MTW editor.

    I hobby program in delphi, understand c++ a bit but don't use it.

    My current project is animating a few new units including mobile artillery for other modders to add to their mods. So its off to Gmax school at present.

    Nevertheless I may be of some assistance to you Welly with regards to testing your utility which I can now see is a huge project.
    Such is life- Ned Kelly -his last words just before he was hanged.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Vanya @ Oct. 08 2003,09:44)]GAH

    Vanya started reading this, and soon lost His mind. As Vanya sank into insanity, He had an "apostrophe": Vanya has no head Therefore, logic and reason would dictate that Vanya could NOT have lost His mind during the read, and could thus, NOT be insane

    Now that Vanya has reattached His surrogate head, He can say... this sounds intriguing.

    Vanya sez... Vanya does not recall what "language" this tool is written in, but does remember somebody suggesting componentizing it. (There was some vague notion of VB script lingering in Vanya's gut...)

    Vanya *could* help with that...

    Vanya's questions:
    1) Should Vanya help componentizing... would He have to run app on PC with game installed, or could He do it on PC that has no MTW on it?
    2) Assuming 1 is "no MTW needed", then can He still fiddle with the files (assuming He has some copies of some file samples) and see the results within the app visually?
    3) What components/controls/objects are youz using to assist youz in developing this app? Any DirectX? Or is it straight binary shenanigans?

    Vanya sez... Vanya's time is limited, as it is currently head harvesting season. (Of course, head harvesting is done year-round... )

    GAH


    Vanya,

    It's quite hard for people to interpret exactly what you are talking about at times, due to your somewhat independent usage of The Queens Grammer.

    Whilst I appreciate, and thoroughly support, the concept of independent thought processes with the internet may I suggest that your dialog is, perhaps, more akin to other forums, NGs and/or websites that attract individuals that may appreciate such forms of dialog.

    In answer to questions; or rather what I perceive your questions to be -

    1) MTTM is a utility for MTW - both MTW 1.1 and VI. This is what this group is about. As for componentizing I have abosolutely no idea what you are driving at.

    2) As MTTM is specifically a utility for MTW (that also offers optional STW support/conversion to MTW formats) then if you don't have MTW ... er ... it's not for you.

    3) MTTM utilises some standard Windows interfaces that will be visable to the user (eg - 'Browse for Folder', 'Colour picker&#39. It also utilises other Windows interfaces that are less visable (the DOS Shell, HTTM components and a few others that should be of no concern to the user). MTTM does not utilise DirectX (why you would think it does is a mystery to me as MTTM is NOT an image rendering utility but rather a batch graphics conversion tool - specifically for the Total War series).

    Vanya - I've followed a few of your posts on this and other forums and it does appear at times that you may know what your talking about.

    However, we all know that the internet is such a wide source of info that any individual can use a few choice phrases in order to appear to know more that he/she actually does.

    Consequently, you may well be able to contribute to this project, should you wish, if you really are conversant with the considerations that are necessary in providing a new utility to a modding group. If so, please E-mail me if you wish to join in - but please ensure such potential corresspondence, going back to the Queens Grammer, is readable. Otherwise your just wasting everyones time (and stretching their interpretation capabilities).

    Welly

  25. #25
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Razor1952 @ Oct. 09 2003,08:04)]Having hung around here for a while I vaguely can see what Welly is on about.

    I'd be happy to volunteer my services, though I don't know much about the MTW editor.

    I hobby program in delphi, understand c++ a bit but don't use it.

    My current project is animating a few new units including mobile artillery for other modders to add to their mods. So its off to Gmax school at present.

    Nevertheless I may be of some assistance to you Welly with regards to testing your utility which I can now see is a huge project.
    Hi razor,

    Many thanks for your offer.

    I started this thread asking for testers, and then slowly veared away from such an approach. Why? For two reasons -

    - I'd still have to produce copious amounts of information/documentation/E-mails in order to assist such testers in termsof what MTTM does (or tries to do&#33. Such time would be better spent in providing good documentation for an initial BETA release.
    - apart from documentation I'd also have to explain how to do some things in MTTM in order to achieve the desired result; which would be problematical as I've been been changing MTTM constantly since I started writing it (some of my ideas seemed good initially but were not really suitable solutions after learning more about other components that MTTM also deals with.

    Basically MTTM has changed considerably since I started this thread - simply because I've learned a bit more and realised that either some of my earlier ideas were either not feasible or could be addressed in a better manner. Therefore my opinion now is that it's better to get something released ASAP to this community.

    At such a time we can all (interested parties that is) go over the functionality of the 1st MTTM release and offer suggestions for improvement for the next release.

    The 1st release will be called "BETA" Does this mean it's going to be a bag of shit? NO It just, means that MTTM deals with such indeterminate things such as user created maps (both MTW and STW). Therefore, whilst I've done a hell of a lot of testing, I have no idea how MTTM may process some user-created maps. I presume it will work fine - but I have no way of knowing if every user-created map can be undertood and correctly interpreted by MTTM.

    Therefore - I know think a first release is important. After that we can all act as testers/feedback for such a release.

    Welly

  26. #26
    Lost Ashigaru Member Whitey's Avatar
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    so Welly, when is the first release due?
    Have you seen the fnords?

  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Whitey @ Oct. 11 2003,17:20)]so Welly, when is the first release due?
    This Tuesday or Wednesday (2 or 3 days).

    I've now finalised all the code for this 1st release, and am busy testing a few things and more importantly writing Documentation. I want to be sure the documentation is good enough for users to understand MTTM, and not fall into the trap of releasing a utility thats works but with insufficient documentation (as happened with LMM).

    2 days and Barrocca will receive the stuff, at which point he'll upload it to the Org and I'll confer with B on the STW support I've now put into MTTM - whilst those who wish can download it and be gob-smacked

    Ok, a bit of facitious self praise there - but I am very pleased with this utility. It's all "come together" a lot better than I could have hoped for.

    2/3 days before you can get it.

    Welly

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Oct. 09 2003,09:40)]... if you really are conversant with the considerations that are necessary in providing a new utility to a modding group. If so, please E-mail me if you wish to join in - but please ensure such potential corresspondence, going back to the Queens Grammer, is readable. Otherwise your just wasting everyones time (and stretching their interpretation capabilities).

    Welly
    GAH

    Vanya is confused... "Queen's Grammar"? Vanya has no idea what this means. Vanya is not a "queen"... Vanya does not walk the streets in tight vinyl outfits bearing chest hair and a 5 o'clock shadow trying to convince peeps He's a woman.

    Vanya sez... Vanya has trusty typewriter on which He can write ample golden code. Vanya sez... the code sparkles so bright that if Vanya actually had a head, He would need to look the other way, for He would be blinded the the grace of His creation. Naturally, this occurs anyways, but having no head means Vanya is impermeable to the light.

    DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT Vanya needs not, for the light emmanates from Vanya

    Vanya sez...

    Componentize - Cut monolithic project into smaller DLLs so as to make each separate part a simple, manageable, reuseable endeavor.

    When Vanya talks about relying on MTW... Vanya sez... sure its "for the game". But when testing the integrity of your creations, can the app be used to visualize the end unit/thing without launching the game to see what you created. That is, do you have a form WITHIN the app to "preview" the unit rendering?

    Vanya adds... Vanya has never made mod. Vanya knows nothing as to what goes into making one or what is needed. Vanya only knows "code"... raw algorithms, etc.

    Vanya sez... If you can't decide where the bounds are within your own architecture so youz can cut it up into pieces (ie, CUT IT'S HEAD OFF), then perhaps talk of componentizing is premature. Heck, Vanya not even know what language the thing is written in. Vanya's knowledge of Unix is pretty much "ls -la". And even that is quickly fading as the seeds in the current grapefruit serving as His surrogate head settle in as a result of gravity on solar irradiation.

    "Ignorance becomes knowledge when enough fools believe it."
    -- Vanya

    GAH
    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member Wellington's Avatar
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    Why am I responding to fruit-cakes - who click post buttons at least 3 times?

    But ... for the record ...

    Componentize - Cut monolithic project into smaller DLLs so as to make each separate part a simple, manageable, reuseable endeavor.


    Such an approach goes without saying. It is second nature to anyone writing code - but it is dependent on the language such a utility is being written in. MTTM utilises several OCX's but no DLL's - and there is a good reason for this (when I release MTTM, if you choose to download it and puzzle out what it does, maybe then you can ascertain the reason for no DLL's). I'll leave you to think about that

    When Vanya talks about relying on MTW... Vanya sez... sure its "for the game". But when testing the integrity of your creations, can the app be used to visualize the end unit/thing without launching the game to see what you created. That is, do you have a form WITHIN the app to "preview" the unit rendering?


    This statement/question tells me 3 things -

    1) As I've previously said, MTTM_Batch is a Batch utility. Therefore, of course, you do NOT require to launch MTW when using MTTM_Batch (or MTTM_Online).

    2) Your mention of "forms" informs me that your knowledge is limited to existing established methods of doing things - via MS form creation Don't you understand that any PC's operations are governed by its machine-code set - and NOT via whatever MS choose to promote as desirable/essential use. MTTM does NOT rely on existing MS "methods" of doing things. MTTM does some things in a manner that some established MS programmers would screw their brains at - as did LMM

    I'm not into propagating the myth that programming anything of worth on a Windows platform requires the use of languages and software that MS would like us all to purchase. Such MS spiel is bullshit

    Rather, I get a big kick out of doing things in a simple but effective manner that that so-called experts say cannot be done. That's where I come from - and there are many on the WWW that think likewise.

    3) I've previously said (good grief ... read the posts please) that MTTM comprise 2 utilities. A GUI based number cruncher and a far more elaborate GUI based image viewer. The number cruncher (MTTM_Batch) does all the hard work - albeit via a GUI interface. The viewer (MTTM_Online) is a comprehensive graphics viewer - that specifically pertains to MTW/STW images (LBM/TGA/BIF/BUF).

    Vanya sez... If you can't decide where the bounds are within your own architecture so youz can cut it up into pieces (ie, CUT IT'S HEAD OFF), then perhaps talk of componentizing is premature. Heck, Vanya not even know what language the thing is written in.

    I know exactly where such 'bounds' are. The architecture is designed by myself - and as I do know what I'm doing I can assure you it's fine.

    As for language - hav'nt you read all of this thread? I told everyone this in the first 2 posts

    "Ignorance becomes knowledge when enough fools believe it."
    -- Vanya



    I'm not quite sure whether or not this is an intended insult or the words of an individual who appears to be well versed in such ignorance

    When I release MTTM. I'll leave it for the user's to decide - assuming, of course, that such users are not fools.

    For those of you still awaiting the MTTM release - it's coming

    Welly

    (Edited: BTW I've just realised that every Org post is now, at time of writing, generating 3 such posts .... hhhmmm C'mon Org guys - this is a forum - please test your site software in a different manner )




  30. #30
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    I'm not testing or changing anything.

    Something weird is going on with this topic, even a topic rebuilt didn't fix it.

    It should be working now.



    Ja mata

    TosaInu

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